The Wii U in a worse or better shape after the PS4 reveal?

Ingueferroque said:
This is the craziest amount of spin and damage control I've seen in a GAF thread.
You seem so obsessed with graphics, but at the same time somehow Sony going for extremely powerful specs is a bad thing? And don't forget that a WiiU with 8GB HD is selling for $300. If you want 32GB that will set you back $370. Not exactly cheap either.
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I'm not obsessed with graphics, just pointing out that it doesn't make sense to compare a lighting demo with a graphics demo. It would be better to compare Deep Down and Japanese Garden rather than Deep Down and Zelda.

And if you look at my previous post to the one you've quoted I did mention that a price cut of 50 dollars would make the Wii U around half the price of the PS4 assuming that they go for a $499.99 pricepoint at launch.

And spin and damage control..? Why would I need to..? I just think Sony have made what could be a fatal mistake for the company by going for 8GB of GDDR5. If they were going to go for 8GB of RAM then they should have opted for DDR3 and ESRAM or eDRAM. It's a great deal cheaper, easier to cool and better suited to OS use and functions. GDDR5 is overkill, 8GB of GDDR5 is ridiculous.
 
Darryl said:
you really picked through his message to find something to disagree with, lol. his overall message seems to be about Sony going too far, not that it isn't important to try to make good graphics at all.
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I think I bolded pretty much all of it. Not sure what the argument is with Sony making their system 'too powerful', which is blowing my mind since we just came from a eight year long console cycle. Why shouldn't they make the new PS4 a considerable leap? The PS3 will still be there at a competitive price range, and even if the PS4 will be priced at $600, that price will obviously go down as the years go on.

Five years from now we'll probably be grateful that the 8GB is there.

snowdog1971 said:
I'm not obsessed with graphics, just pointing out that it doesn't make sense to compare a lighting demo with a graphics demo. It would be better to compare Deep Down and Japanese Garden rather than Deep Down and Zelda.

And if you look at my previous post to the one you've quoted I did mention that a price cut of 50 dollars would make the Wii U around half the price of the PS4 assuming that they go for a $499.99 pricepoint at launch.

And spin and damage control..? Why would I need to..? I just think Sony have made what could be a fatal mistake for the company by going for 8GB of GDDR5. If they were going to go for 8GB of RAM then they should have opted for DDR3 and ESRAM or eDRAM. It's a great deal cheaper, easier to cool and better suited to OS use and functions. GDDR5 is overkill, 8GB of GDDR5 is ridiculous.
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I'm sure they had their reasons to pick this ram out, and we don't know what kind of deal they made or at what price they are purchasing it.
Was that (impressive) Zelda Wii-U demo really a lighting demo though? I didn't play TP so I don't recognize the assets, but I doubt those are from TP or Skyward Sword.
 
ozfunghi said:
The demo does "reek" of Twilight Princess. Though of course there is no proof afaik these are TP assets, slightly upgraded, or not.
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The Link model at least is clearly TP's. Every single detail matches. Maybe it has higher resolution textures, but I can't compare without a direct feed at proper resolution.
 
NeonZ said:
The Link model at least is clearly TP's. Every single detail matches. Maybe it has higher resolution textures, but I can't compare without a direct feed at proper resolution.
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I think it might actually be SSB Brawl's Link model, which is a bit more refined already.
 
MrNyarlathotep said:
Wtf?

There are pretty fundamental changes between SMB3 and SMW.
Why is this even being stated like SMW is an expansion pack or some shit?
Have you actually played either of these games?

Fully traversible overworld, multiple paths, multiple level exits as integral design (not 'warp zone' alternates), in level inventory, yoshi, free flight mechanic, alternate jump mechanics between regular jumps and spin jumps, switch block level modification, wall running.

These are some pretty fucking major alternate mechanics to add to the mix, beyond any aesthetic improvements from 8bit to 16bit.
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Okay, I see the issue. We simply have different thresholds of what constitutes a "fundamental" change. What you listed doesn't seem to alter the central identity to me: "fully traversible overworld" doesn't actually provide much more freedom, "in level inventory" is simply streamlined block hoarding, (vanilla) yoshi is fundamentally just a combination of the fire flower/item holding/high jump mechanics already there, etc. There are definitely tweaks and additions--some of the others in your list are bigger--but I think one of the strengths of SMW is how it retains the same core gameplay while making these additions. If you feel like it's a very different kind of game, so be it.
 
Astrosanity said:
Wasn't that just in response to a question about whether Unreal Engine 3 would run or not on the Wii U? The techdemo having a fish and pond at one point seems like a very tenuous link to suggest Epic made it.
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That's what people on the Internets was speculating, I'm just going by what everyone else thought.
 
Just thought I would add this since the demo has come up, it's interesting to see the improvement over the initial demo and then the video from E3, it really does look very good.

The Wii U is defiantly no slouch, but of course it isn't going to be more powerful than the PS4 either.

ARTICLE LINK

VIDEO
 
Sipheren said:
Just thought I would add this since the demo has come up, it's interesting to see the improvement over the initial demo and then the video from E3, it really does look very good.

The Wii U is defiantly no slouch, but of course it isn't going to be more powerful than the PS4 either.
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Nintendo, please give me Kolibri 2

thanks
 
Sipheren said:
Just thought I would add this since the demo has come up, it's interesting to see the improvement over the initial demo and then the video from E3, it really does look very good.

The Wii U is defiantly no slouch, but of course it isn't going to be more powerful than the PS4 either.

ARTICLE LINK

VIDEO
Click to expand...

Looks great... but how many games will we see like that? Those videos are from 2011 but I don't see anything that nice from any games we've seen... not even
X.gif
 
I dunno, maybe the average soccer mom wouldn't be able to see much of a difference between the PS4 and Wii U.

Us Gaffers certainly will see the difference, and it's indeed a big gap...
 
HAL_Laboratory said:
The desperation for Wii U to fail is amazing.
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It's not really desperation at this stage, it's expectation. The Wii U's current performance is unprecedented and it cannot be stressed enough just how bad it is right now. Not saying that the PS4 will be a great success either, but by every metric the Wii U is currently failing pretty hard.
 
shinra-bansho said:
Wouldn't that amount to a $50 price cut on an already negative margin, while simultaneously eliminating a source of revenue (probably ~$25 or so per unit?) by giving away NSMBU. They'd also need to clear that Basic stock somehow as well.

I just don't see Nintendo wanting to go further into the red per unit - but I guess they may have to. They already launched a (crappy) "value-added" salvo with the Zombi U bundle iirc.
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There isn't a $50 difference between Basic and Deluxe on the manufacturing end, it's a negligible cost difference there. I think they could even drop $50 on the Basic though, to help clear stock and drive a more widespread percieved pricedrop. People will still spring for the Deluxe at the register anyway, consumers never really went for the 360 Core/Arcade en mass either.

I think the (late) ZombiU bundle in NA is more an effort to just drive more retailer orders then anything and get those shipments up. It's also trying to get more copies of ZombiU moved for Ubi (taking a note from heavy bundling driving AC3L/CODBOD to decent figures), but I don't see that bundle as a real effort to try and drive userbase as it's sticking within the current price tiers. Same for the EU MH3U bundle and JP DQX bundle, these bundles are limited supply to help push the games and up shipments slightly over the normal orders, not drive the userbase so much though. For that they'll have to do an effective drop, if not a real one. Better to bleed for the future now (3DS road) than wait and see (Vita deadend).


shinra-bansho said:
I think the announcement of both MH3G and MH4 coming to the platform essentially reassured consumers that the 3DS was the place to be for that sort of support. And I still see third party being the driver of success; regardless of the strength of Nintendo when it comes to first party.*

*Unless some sort of Wii Sports/Brain Training phenomenon takes off. I feel like this caveat is sort of unnecessary though - since if it does it will essentially be an unpredictable turn of events.
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Not at all, Monster Hunter was more a competitive move to kneecap Vita than it was to really push 3DS, at least in 2011/12. Mario Land and Kart each did orders of magnitude more heavy lifting for 3DS with consumers. And again, MH3G was really the lone driver at all for 3DS 3rd party games year one. Though admittedly, that's still one more than Wii U has.

1st party drove 3DS mainly though, and it's what's going to drive Wii U almost exclusively. Just as was the case with DS and Wii, consumers are reassurred by Nintendo games on Nintendo platforms. 3DS could go on fine without Monster Hunter, it's Vita that can't.
 
InsaneZero said:
It's not really desperation at this stage, it's expectation. The Wii U's current performance is unprecedented and it cannot be stressed enough just how bad it is right now. Not saying that the PS4 will be a great success either, but by every metric the Wii U is currently failing pretty hard.
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I really don't understand how this is the case. The Xbox 360, in 2005, sold 600,000 units between November and the beginning of January. The Wii U sold 400,000 units in the U.S. alone in its first week of availability, which was higher than the Wii (source 1 and 2). January sales have definitely slowed, but it's immediately after Christmas, in a global recession, and there's been a really weak release schedule. That doesn't seem like a good indication of failure yet.

Maybe I wasn't paying as much attention in 2005-2006, but I don't remember people calling so much doom based on three months of sales for a new console. And the worldwide economy was a good deal healthier back then.
 
InsaneZero said:
It's not really desperation at this stage, it's expectation. The Wii U's current performance is unprecedented and it cannot be stressed enough just how bad it is right now. Not saying that the PS4 will be a great success either, but by every metric the Wii U is currently failing pretty hard.
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That's hyperbole . Isn't WiiU still beating ps3 /360 launch aligned ?
 
snowdog1971 said:
One important thing that people need to remember when looking at these two gifs is that the Zelda demo isn't a graphics demo, it's a dynamic lighting and shadows demo. It uses GameCube assets unless I'm remembering incorrectly..? Probably better to compare and contrast the Japanese Garden demo instead.

As for the topic at hand I'd say that Nintendo are in a better position now than they were when Sony only had 4GB of GDDR5 under the hood. A really daft decision and one that Sony is going to regret. Seems they still haven't learnt any lessons from the PSP, PS3 and Vita. Releasing a high powered and expensive console isn't the best way to success, even if we weren't in the middle of the worst recession in donkeys years. And Sony aren't exactly in the best position to sell each console at a huge loss either.

Nintendo won't be too bothered, all they need to do is release the delayed titles like Wonderful 101, Pikmin 3, Lego City Undercover, Wii Fit and then release two or three of their big guns such as a 3D Mario, Retro's new game and/or Mario Kart in November. They probably won't even need a price cut, but if they reduce the price of the Wii U by 50 dollars you could end up seeing the PS4 being almost twice as expensive as the Wii U.

Sony's Gaming Division is the only part of the company that's making them any profit (unless I'm mistaken?), if the PS4 performs as badly as the PS3 did when it launched and Vitas continue to sell as poorly they could be looking at a very bleak future. :o(

Microsoft must be laughing hysterically about the choice of RAM for the PS4.
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Oh, how much is the PS4? Plus, the PS3 never had a month as bad as the Wii U did, even when it was $599. I'm not here to say a console's gonna fail or anything, but unless you have evidence to back up your claims, you're really not helping your case, at all. Sony has already said countless times that the PS3 was so expensive because of the proprietary components they were using and that they know full well never to do that again and never price the PS4 as high as the PS3 was at launch. And let's be realistic here, if you really think about it, Microsoft has a lot of pressure on them to really blow people away with the next Xbox's unveiling, after the high bar Sony has set. Sure, if the next Xbox is cheaper that'll help, but first and foremost its the software that sells a console and it has always been that way, and we have no idea what Microsoft has in store. So no one should be jumping to conclusions until we know exactly what to expect.
 
Yes. Apparently, Microsoft waited until 69 days before launch to start manufacturing the console. It ended up hurting them during launch up until around March 2006 as far as North America goes. By the way, PS3's worst selling sales months in 2007 were April and May with 82,000 units each. It didn't have a single game (exclusive or multiplatform) appear on the top 20 NPD chart in April. As for May, the only PS3 titles that made it on to the NPD chart was Spider-Man 3 in 17th place followed by MLB 07: The Show at 18th place.
 
Van Owen said:
It's no worse than the people that cling to the hope that Wii U is actually fairly powerful hardware and that it will see similar success to the Wii even though all evidence points the opposite.
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With enough searching, I could probably pull up a thousand posts from 2006 that proclaimed this same thing - people claiming that the Wii would not compete technically (which was true enough) and that its "gimmick" would fail (which was not, by and large). Circumstances are different this time around, obviously, but there's no "evidence" yet to indicate that this inevitable path you see is actually so inevitable. The Wii U is still a closer companion to Durango/PS4 than the Wii was to its peers, and although it may not reach quite the success of its predecessor, three months of sales and sluggish first-year releases is hardly suitable data to make a long-term judgment.
 
WiiredShawn said:
With enough searching, I could probably pull up a thousand posts from 2006 that proclaimed this same thing - people claiming that the Wii would not compete technically (which was true enough) and that its "gimmick" would fail (which was not, by and large). Circumstances are different this time around, obviously, but there's no "evidence" yet to indicate that this inevitable path you see is actually so inevitable. The Wii U is still a closer companion to Durango/PS4 than the Wii was to its peers, and although it may not reach quite the success of its predecessor, three months of sales and sluggish first-year releases is hardly suitable data to make a long-term judgment.
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People thought the Wii would fail before it came out. But after it was sold out for months I don't believe most thought it would be a failure. Wii U is selling must worse than any of the three consoles now in comparison, with no upkick in sight for months, and even that isn't a given.
 
lunchwithyuzo said:
There isn't a $50 difference between Basic and Deluxe on the manufacturing end, it's a negligible cost difference there. I think they could even drop $50 on the Basic though, to help clear stock and drive a more widespread percieved pricedrop. People will still spring for the Deluxe at the register anyway, consumers never really went for the 360 Core/Arcade en mass either.

I think the (late) ZombiU bundle in NA is more an effort to just drive more retailer orders then anything and get those shipments up. It's also trying to get more copies of ZombiU moved for Ubi (taking a note from heavy bundling driving AC3L/CODBOD to decent figures), but I don't see that bundle as a real effort to try and drive userbase as it's sticking within the current price tiers. Same for the EU MH3U bundle and JP DQX bundle, these bundles are limited supply to help push the games and up shipments slightly over the normal orders, not drive the userbase so much though. For that they'll have to do an effective drop, if not a real one. Better to bleed for the future now (3DS road) than wait and see (Vita deadend).

Not at all, Monster Hunter was more a competitive move to kneecap Vita than it was to really push 3DS, at least in 2011/12. Mario Land and Kart each did orders of magnitude more heavy lifting for 3DS with consumers. And again, MH3G was really the lone driver at all for 3DS 3rd party games year one. Though admittedly, that's still one more than Wii U has.

1st party drove 3DS mainly though, and it's what's going to drive Wii U almost exclusively. Just as was the case with DS and Wii, consumers are reassurred by Nintendo games on Nintendo platforms. 3DS could go on fine without Monster Hunter, it's Vita that can't.
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While I would agree it's better to bleed; I'm not sure how much Nintendo management agrees considering "Iwata's promise." And I don't think a pricedrop in isolation or with just what's announced and dated so far, would be a silver bullet anyway.

I don't see how it wasn't both, with regard to the bolded. Wasn't MH3G part of the "trinity?"

I should clarify with regard to the italicised I meant that I still think 3rd party is the driver of success in the home console space. If Nintendo are going to rely solely on first party, then I don't see how they achieve anything but relegation to their pre-Wii levels again.
 
goomba said:
That's hyperbole . Isn't WiiU still beating ps3 /360 launch aligned ?
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The overall user base is nowhere near as important as its growth, especially during the beginning of the lifecycle. At the rate that the Wii U is selling, the PS3 will have outsold it launch aligned WW pretty soon.

And that's really, REALLY bad.
 
K, the PS4 will obviously crush Wii U tech-wise, but that's not what the thread is about.

After the Sony conference, I actually wanted a Wii U more. Console gaming has gotten stale to me, and while there's no doubt the Killzone demo looked outrageous, I was completely disinterested. It is extremely important to be different, and I feel that that tactic is at least going to draw me back to a Nintendo console (sat out last two gens).

Will I get a PS4 and/or 720? Almost definitely once there is a good library on each. The 'X' factor so far belongs to Nintendo (for me), and that's why I'll probably pick that up first. Am I the only one that barely gives a shit about the graphical fidelity anymore, so long as the artwork and quality of presentation is good? The Sony conference didn't really "do it" for me because other than games looking great, there was nothing that really leaped out.
 
InsaneZero said:
It's not really desperation at this stage, it's expectation. The Wii U's current performance is unprecedented and it cannot be stressed enough just how bad it is right now. Not saying that the PS4 will be a great success either, but by every metric the Wii U is currently failing pretty hard.
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Every metric? I've seen only one metric repeated over and over. January NPD.

It's awful no doubt. But the Wii U still has 5+ years ahead of it. You can't extrapolate the next 50 months from one month.
 
goomba said:
That's hyperbole . Isn't WiiU still beating ps3 /360 launch aligned ?
Click to expand...

Crewnh said:
The 360 was supply constrained, wasnt it?
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Yes to both, though looking at sales vs shipments something weird was going on for 360 in the US. Everyone says supply constraints but the shipments clearly imply otherwise? :/

Also, Wii U's January really was catastrophic. PS360 are each almost caught up in the US thanks to it.


Reposting earlier shipment figures (vs sellthrough):

Wii U (2012)
North America: 1.3m (890k US sold)
Japan: 830k (640k sold)
Other: 900k (430k EU sold)

PlayStation 3 (2006)
North America + Japan + HK: 1.7m (690k US + 470k JP sold)

Xbox 360 (2005)
North America: 900k (620k US sold)
EMEA: 500k
Japan: 100k (95k sold)


And launch alinged sales ltd:

NPD (US) 1st 3 months
WiU: 954k (10 weeks)
PS3: 944k (11 weeks)
360: 845k (9 weeks)

Enterbrain (Japan) 1st 11 weeks
WiU: 792k
PS3: 567k
360: 117k
 
prag16 said:
Every metric? I've seen only one metric repeated over and over. January NPD.

It's awful no doubt. But the Wii U still has 5+ years ahead of it. You can't extrapolate the next 50 months from one month.
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It's not just January NPD. I've looked at Media Create/Famitsu for Japan as well as the EU numbers and they are ALL terrible.
 
I think that Nintendo's in decent shape with their first-party output for this year (overall, not the 3 month drought we've been in), and they have a good amount of indie games coming to the eShop. They just need to work on getting more major third-parties on board, and they'll have a solid console. I don't think their situation has a lot of impact right now on the PS4, or vice versa.
 
lunchwithyuzo said:
Yes to both, though looking at sales vs shipments something weird was going on for 360 in the US. Everyone says supply constraints but the shipments clearly imply otherwise? :/
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Where's the 360 launch breakdown from? Anyway, the Wii's launch shipment, despite well-documented supply constraing, still exceeded the tracked US sell-through by 170K. So I don't think if those are the 360's numbers, they're that weird.
 
InsaneZero said:
It's not just January NPD. I've looked at Media Create/Famitsu for Japan as well as the EU numbers and they are ALL terrible.
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Nevertheless,you are using a couple months of data during a software drought and a global recession as an alleged bulletproof long term indicator. That is almost befitting of your username. I kid, I kid. Mostly.
 
shinra-bansho said:
While I would agree it's better to bleed; I'm not sure how much Nintendo management agrees considering "Iwata's promise." And I don't think a pricedrop in isolation or with just what's announced and dated so far, would be a silver bullet anyway.

I don't see how it wasn't both, with regard to the bolded. Wasn't MH3G part of the "trinity?"

I should clarify with regard to the italicised I meant that I still think 3rd party is the driver of success in the home console space. If Nintendo are going to rely solely on first party, then I don't see how they achieve anything but relegation to their pre-Wii levels again.
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Iwata's promise was for next FY, so they could still potentially load the loss in this quarter with a drop soon taking the brunt if it for already manufactured units. And the 3DS drop wasn't a silver bullet either, it was part PR smoke and mirror with varying aims (change media narrative, reassure publishers, screw over Vita) and part consumer stall tactic to tide things over until the Q4 software drivers. It was necessary, and it certainly helped, but it wasn't a silver bullet.

MH3G helped, but the real driver there is MH4. Which releases In the platform's 3rd year, so not really what we're talking about. And while you can certainly say it's "both" driving 3DS to some degree, you'd also be wise not to try and ascribe any real equality there. You look at the trinity, and what each moved (Mario 3DL: 5.84m, MK7: 5.24m, MH3G: 1.6m) and it's pretty self evident which games really hit home with consumers and did the heavy lifting here.

As for 3rd parties on consoles, yes it's vital but that's not to undercount the strength of Nintendo's 1st party either. I don't see them going back to pre-Wii levels chiefly because their brands simply aren't in the same place they were in 2002.
 
shinra-bansho said:
Where's the 360 launch breakdown from? Anyway, the Wii's launch shipment, despite well-documented supply constraing, still exceeded the tracked US sell-through by 170K. So I don't think if those are the 360's numbers, they're that weird.
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360 figures came from Microsoft IR. 280k Canada + channel seems like kind of a lot for a sold out system.

And what are you basing the Wii launch 170k deficit on? Did we get week 1 NA shipment numbers?
 
When Vita was revealed, in that moment the 3DS was having poor sales and most of the people thought that Vita was going to crush the 3DS... Also the Vita presentation was much better than the PS4 reveal.
 
lunchwithyuzo said:
As for 3rd parties on consoles, yes it's vital but that's not to undercount the strength of Nintendo's 1st party either. I don't see them going back to pre-Wii levels chiefly because their brands simply aren't in the same place they were in 2002.
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Without discounting that Nintendo do have a very strong first party - I think it remains to be seen both how permanent the growth of their brands has been and the extent of that growth in the absence of a separate driving force.

lunchwithyuzo said:
360 figures came from Microsoft IR. 280k Canada + channel seems like kind of a lot for a sold out system.

And what are you basing the Wii launch 170k deficit on? Did we get week 1 NA shipment numbers?
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I was looking at US NPD sell-through in 2006 vs the NA shipment number.
 
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