CrunchyFrog
Member
IGN: What Can Zelda Learn From Balloon Fight
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IGN: What Can Zelda Learn From Balloon Fight
It was during E3 2011 when he was giving a range of interviews. Where he said stuff like this.
And other developers have expressed a similar sentiment, that it isn't feasible anymore to throw everything out and start from scratch. So I imagine you're going to see a lot of iterative engine development, sort of like what Valve does with Source, which allows them to keep releasing PS3/360 games using their same content generation pipelines while at the same time making iterative improvements to the renderer that lets them take advantage of some of the new rendering features of the PS4/720. Like tesselation or whatever.
Another example is how DICE plans to use Frostbite 2 on the next-generation platforms. And they'll probably iterate on that in a few years with a new version of the engine.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
To add to this idea. Could also be cool to see each team responsible for a different "visual style" to also be in charge of exploring a particular mechanic or gameplay idea to the fullest extreme. And let it be a sort of in-house competition between the sub teams for best vision and execution, and to wrap it up they all come together in the end to do the final world levels. World 8 being Bobby Fischer's Game 6 in game design form would be glorious.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
Huh. Well that would be a great development for Wii-U!
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Of course not, but he should still be held responsible. Why have their not been followups from the mainstream gaming media?
TheCongressman1
Member
Reminds me a lot of Gex for ps1. Not really different art styles, but the drastic thematic changes between levels. That made things really interesting.
Nintendo makes sure not to talk to anyone. I dont doubt there will be some 1080P games but yeah it wont be anywhere near standard
GameplayWhore
Member
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Okay, backing up a little, but:
If you're expecting the Wii U to compete with modern high end hardware pack it up now. It's not going to happen and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.
If you're expecting the Wii U to compete with modern high end hardware pack it up now. It's not going to happen and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.
I just want to know one thing: Are they still using Wii/TEV architecture? Certainly they could find a way to make a kind of custom ALUs/shaders that switches to TEV mode for basic tasks, or allows for full programability at the expense of some performance. I think it comes down to whether the dev kits are easy enough to understand that developers who are impatient (i.e. 3rd parties not particularly fond of Nintendo hardware) will be able to port per-existing XB360/PS3 works with little hassle considering not every developer out there was fond at all with TEV.
I wish more people would accept this so we could move onto what really matters which is games.
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
I hope at least the O/S runs in 1080p. (Does the Xbox 360 and PS3?)
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I expect it to compete with 2010 high end hardware.
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I expect it to compete with 2010 high end hardware.
Interestingly Carmack identifies a major problem with next-gen systems, and this includes Wii U, which is that if they aren't huge orders of magnitude better then what's currently available the graphical improvement won't be distinguishable enough to justify their $300 (well he says $300, honestly I think PS4/720 will be $400 even though I think that's no longer viable) value for people who already own a PS3/360.
Fortunately for Wii U it's going to have first-party content to help it out. But it's going to be a weird generational transition for all the platform holders, I think, not just Nintendo. It's not like the PS2/Xbox to PS3/360 transition where the architectural leap was so different, just in terms of the introduction of shaders and all that, that you couldn't really support both generations without maintaining wildly different engines. And the difference became pretty appreciable to the player. Whereas the fact you can even take a graphically impressive PC game like Witcher 2 and release it on 360, and still have it look good, says a lot about just how incredible games are going to have to look to get people to upgrade.
I mean as a PC gamer I haven't really seen anything in new graphics hardware on the scale of when vertex and pixel shaders first came in, or AA with Voodoo cards. Only thing that immediately comes to mind is tesselation and I don't feel like that is a huge deal. Everything is faster and bigger, but not drastically different.
Of course this is all a moot point if developers ditch the older generation in a big way and effectively force people to upgrade, but I get the feeling a lot of devs aren't ready to do that. Especially with the state of the industry the way it is.
OS I would think so. GPU Wise its looking closer to a 2008/2009 GPU that will have some 2010/2011 features
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
I just want the Zelda demo graphics at 1080p as the average of what we'll get visually. I'd be totally happy with. The bird demo at 720p level of graphics would also be fine.
That's surely a realistic scenario, right?
Right?
That's surely a realistic scenario, right?
Right?
GameplayWhore
Member
I suspect the system menu's most central functions will be in 480p, as they'll be on the subscreen.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
As do I. The first step is accepting, and then realising that if you love Nintendo games and will buy the system anyway it doesn't matter. As I said earlier, Nintendo only gamers are in for a treat, because the Wii is junk hardware by comparison to what the Wii U will be offering. Nintendo's games are going to look incredible, and I'm excited that the company will be bringing its IPs into a modern world.
But the hardware is going to be quite far behind high end PCs along with Microsoft and Sony's next generation units. Nintendo is not going to go for a cutting edge data crunching super machine. Not just because it's a huge money sink to do so, but because they're focusing resources across a wide spectrum of features (eg: the Wii U pad).
Accept you're not going to get the best system of the market. Accept high end ground-up games for the next Xbox and PlayStation will be pushing hardware harder, and looking better (on a technical level), than the Wii U's best. Accept it, move on, and get excited for what Nintendo will show at E3.
I assume the 360 does. PS3 does. And I figure the Wii U will as well. It would be pretty boneheaded for Nintendo to have the OS run at 720p when it could quite easily run at 1080p, even though mostly all game will run at 720p.
The Zelda demo was 720p. You wont see many 1080p games on the Wii U.
I expect the Zelda and bird demo won't be the average graphics for most Wii U games.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
What if the name is changed to Wii OCD???
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'd buy ten of them.
Yeah, I feel Nintendo is going for the smallest possible increase in performance with a discrete GPU, some tweaks to get a little extra performance out of it, but otherwise, you can't do much worse than their solution. 7 years on and only 2 x more powerful than the current twins.
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
Because the machine isn't capable or because developers simply won't take the time to get the most out of the system?
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Iwata: ~cleans his hands over and over again and laughs~
Im thinking they have been working on something better than TEV, or at least improved it over these last years to prepare for going into the HD marketplace. Maybe the whole strict NDA thing think was to give Nintendo time to teach third parties how to use it and we will see the results of these games in E3.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
surely not average graphical quality, especially with the amount of third party shovelware that has typified Nintendo systems as of late. but first party exceptional cases I expect to match those graphics.
else I shall be a sad panda :_(
Because of developers. I'm sure the machine itself will be capable, and we will see Wii U games that look like the Zelda/Bird demos. But lots of developers won't bother to learn the systems optimization tricks to take full advantage of the console's potential. And Nintendo themselves said that only certain franchises need super amazing graphics like Zelda. Those tech demos show what is possible...not what will be standard.
Speaking of tech demos, I always think about Nintendo's Rebirth tech demo to show off what the GameCube could do graphically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylyXEMPaVHQ
And then I think about what most Wii games looked like, and I laugh.
Yeah. Most aren't 1080p.
So it's funny that they are called HD consoles when they aren't in true HD.
SolidSnakex
Member
Huh? HD is 720p and up.
AdventureRacing
Member
To be honest i think nintendo stll managed to make some of my favourite looking games this gen on wii level hardware. The thought of their games on even 360/PS3 level hardware has me drooling. I'm not sure they really need anymore than that to make some incredible games which are a huge step up from what they have so far.
Of course if it was quite a bit more powerful than 360/PS3 i'd take that too
.The Zelda demo was running in real-time on non-final hardware, so I don't see why it would be beyond the ability of most third parties to achieve that with a reasonable investment of development time.
The artstyle of their games certainly helps. I don't think I want them rendering the wrinkles of Mario's furrowed brow. So long as the games have great lighting and IQ, that's all that's needed really.
I mean for all the talk of PC gamers being graphics whores, look at how much attention Blizzard and Valve games get.
To be honest i think nintendo stll managed to make some of my favourite looking games this gen on wii level hardware. The thought of their games on even 360/PS3 level hardware has me drooling. I'm not sure they really need anymore than that to make some incredible games which are a huge step up from what they have so far.
Of course if it was quite a bit more powerful than 360/PS3 i'd take that too
The artstyle of their games certainly helps. I don't think I want them rendering the wrinkles of Mario's furrowed brow. So long as the games have great lighting and IQ, that's all that's needed really.
I mean for all the talk of PC gamers being graphics whores, look at how much attention Blizzard and Valve games get.
The last bit of your statement is the issue. Nintendo and its fans have a year or a year and a half to prove to 3rd parties that the console is worth reasonable investments of time. 3rd parties could just as easily Gamecube the Wii U and say its not worth it even if we can
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I lol'd.
Yes. 1080p is noticeably more intensive than 720p, and neither the 360 nor PS3 have the grunt to do it, except for the occasional low detail games. Flower, for example, runs at native 1080p (as far as I'm aware). Wipeout HD kinda does as well, but it has a dynamic resolution that scales based on scene complexity to keep the framerate stable.
On the Wii U, 99% of games will render at 720p or (in shit cases) sub-HD. 1080p will be a rarity, much like for current generation systems, reserved for low detail games. Rayman Origins is 1080p, so I expect Rayman Legends Wii U to be 1080p too.
I feel the same way, because I feel game visual design is more than just technology. It's artistry, and good looking games can be developed on all kinds of hardware. The best looking games tend to stand the test of time, too.
It's almost like sculpting. No matter your tools or material, you can create beautiful sculptures. But there's no denying that with more advanced, intricate tools, and different materials discovered, mined and forged throughout the ages, you can create things you were unable to create with the tools and materials of old. Newer, more complex and detailed creations only the most advanced tools and skillsets can deliver.
Games are kinda like that. I can drool at super sampled maxed out DX11 Crysis 2, and how it is leagues ahead of pretty much every game on the market, but still appreciate and adore Super Mario Galaxy due to the beautiful artistry.
With the Wii U, I'm interested to see what Nintendo does with hardware they've never had. Zelda is a great example of a franchise that can explode with detail. Detail impossible until now.
b-b-but reggie said to check that box =(
Star Wars Rogue Leader was a GameCube launch title.
Why is it that majority of wii games looked nothing like Rogue Leader?
Third parties had 6 years to learn the GameCube's graphical tools and the Wii was based on GameCube's architecture. Yet most Wii games did not look anywhere near the best GameCube games.
Edit: 6 years of gamecube development didn't prepare developers to make Wii games with good graphics.
Edit #2: Meant to say Rogue Leader, not Squadron.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
He's very persuasive.
If he told me to punch myself in the face, I'd at least think about it.
On the other hand it's not like they'll be working with any TEV craziness when porting games over. Especially after all we've heard about how easy it is to get PS3/360 games up and running on the system. If the game doesn't look good on the Wii U it's more than likely the game doesn't look good on any system.
ShineALight
Member
Some people don't consider 720p HD and use "true HD" in reference to 1080p.
SolidSnakex
Member
I'll be interested in seeing what Treyarch does with Black Ops 2 on the Wii U. That should be able to run on the Wii U at 720p 60fps. But will they put the effort in to bump up the resolution?
I'd imagine they would rather bump other aspects of the graphics rather than the resolution.
Because the Gamecube and Wii had weird architecture that nobody wanted to learn on anything more than a superfluous level, save for Nintendo themselves. The fact they needed to learn how to use it to begin with rather than using their existing PC environment experience was a huge stumbling block.
I think alot will depend on tablet functionality too. BLOPSII has so much that looks like it was designed with the tablet in mind that the tablet could end up restricting any real upgrades to the game visually
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
He's technically telling the truth!
Like I said, Nintendo released an official screen capture of that Zelda Wii U tech demo at a capture resolution of 1920x1080. But it was upscaled, so it was really 720p stretched to 1080p. Deceptive bastards.
Makes me wonder if the Wii U will actually handle the upscaling rather than displays. I doubt it, but you never know. Not that it really matters.
ADANIEL1960
Neo Member
Looking at the Sony financial situation.
Sony getting smashed in the TV and Audio Visual by Samsung and LG, Vita doing not so well and PS3 only now becoming profitable.
I cannot see how they can release PS4 - especially one that will not make a profit for years. If PS4 does not release, can we expect that most of pS fans would purchase WiiU rather than Xboxnxt?
Sony getting smashed in the TV and Audio Visual by Samsung and LG, Vita doing not so well and PS3 only now becoming profitable.
I cannot see how they can release PS4 - especially one that will not make a profit for years. If PS4 does not release, can we expect that most of pS fans would purchase WiiU rather than Xboxnxt?
Gahiggidy
My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Well, no. Not for Mario games, but that extra power could be put to adding a ton more animation to the world and characters making it really come alive and provide an experience not even imagined before Wii U.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I conclude nothing until E3. Expectations are VERY high though. I don't mean for specs, but for everything else like price, games, online, dev support, etc...
A PS4 is coming out, it's going to be powerful out of the gate (probably) and Sony will do like they did with the Vita and hope it's successful enough that using off the shelf parts doesn't lose them too much money.
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