Done, just in case. Seems like pretty common knowledge though, and I wasn't being specific.hey you might wanna spoiler tag that
Done, just in case. Seems like pretty common knowledge though, and I wasn't being specific.hey you might wanna spoiler tag that
Done, just in case. Seems like pretty common knowledge though, and I wasn't being specific.
That's true, although when I saw them mentioned, it was this feeling of extreme excitement, like "WHAT?! I need to check that out NOW," vs. "Dude, you just ruined the game for me." LOL Anyway, guess I just need to err on the side of caution from now on. Thanks.It was definitely in the top three, if not the top "whoa" moment for me upon first discovering them.
I would have hated to have known about them ahead of time.
Who wants to play a game where you feel like an idiot because you're supposed to project yourself in the mind of an "clever" individual in order to solve incredibly abstract puzzles?? This game is masochistic.
I am all for making games about more than violence and gratuitous titillation (i.e. status quo) ... but this game is too pretentious for its own good. It's you vs Jonathan Blow's intellect. Art does not read like a sentence but games do require a certain amount of hand holding to make coherent sense.
Who wants to play a game where you feel like an idiot because you're supposed to project yourself in the mind of an "clever" individual in order to solve incredibly abstract puzzles?? This game is masochistic.
If by "world and culture that created it," you're referring to the privilege structures that let a white male self-styled auteur make a "genius" game... yeah, I'd say you're absolutely right. And even if you don't expect games to ask those kinds of questions, The Witness definitely reinforces presumptions about quality and worthwhile-ness that reproduce those privilege structures, so it's not really groundbreaking (or meaningful) at all in that sense - it's regressive, in fact.
I'm not sure I follow. Everything The Witness does is cleanly spelled out for players - I can't say the same for, say, Myst, where some incredible leaps of logic have to be taken in order to reach a conclusion. There is a vast difference between truly abstract 'moonlogic' puzzles of an adventure game from the 90s and what The Witness does, which uses repetition of its main gameplay function as a means to induce a viral objective.
I am all for making games about more than violence and gratuitous titillation (i.e. status quo) ... but this game is too pretentious for its own good. It's you vs Jonathan Blow's intellect. Art does not read like a sentence but games do require a certain amount of hand holding to make coherent sense.
Who wants to play a game where you feel like an idiot because you're supposed to project yourself in the mind of an "clever" individual in order to solve incredibly abstract puzzles?? This game is masochistic.
The rules never unexpectedly change, but your understanding of them evolves, and you can refine them towards the goal.
I think you need to approach the game with a mindset of scientific enquiry. What you're terming guesswork - which, to be fair, isn't an unreasonable statement - I would instead call "experimentation"; you should be approaching it with a sense of ordered testing of hypotheses, not through arbitrary guesswork trying to spot anything that might stick. When a rule is tested in a way that doesn't fit what you know, the player - the scientist - needs to experiment with what's available to try to rearrange their previous hypothesis into something that fits with the new information.
Out of interest, are there any 'new wrinkle' panels that also have that 'go back and solve the previous panel if you get it wrong' attribute set? I can't think of any, I think that's only true after a rule is established and it's being tested with escalating difficulty.
I would, perhaps, tie this in a little to the overall theme. I'm going to put this in spoiler tags, but that's only really in the context that I'm talking about grand thematic points that resonated to me. Whether they're intended... that's for Blow to decide, but I like them enough that I'm gonna run with 'em!
The title of the game is "The Witness". You are - implicitly - an observer, piecing together information about the underlying mechanics of the world from the most basic of principles (Draw a line to activate a thing) through extra complexities (Draw a line that fits these defined rules to activate a thing) to the very grandest of implications; the same as about how a scientific theory evolves from the most basic of principles (Objects fall towards the ground) through extra complexities (Objects fall towards massive objects) to the grandest of implications (Spacetime is curved)
I would be intrigued to see if players with a science background find the game - or at least the thought processes the game demands - a bit easier than players without.
If you think EVERYTHING The Witness does is cleanly spelled out for players, I'm afraid you are delusional and probably have an attachment to the game in one way or another.
I would say that there are ample tutorials in place. The challenge is in recognising them.The barrier for entry is so high with 0.0% tutorialization, how can Mr. Blow expect anyone who doesn't have diehard patience to get further than 2 hours into the game?
For me, personally, I find it off-putting because the game assumes too much and it becomes frustrating to a point that I give up. That's not fun to me. More often than not, I imagine an "aha" Jonathan Blow laughing at me when I'm trying to solve various puzzles to no avail - and the joke is not funny.
Keep in mind, this is coming from a game developer's perspective as well as a gamer.
If you think EVERYTHING The Witness does is cleanly spelled out for players, I'm afraid you are delusional and probably have an attachment to the game in one way or another.
The barrier for entry is so high with 0.0% tutorialization, how can Mr. Blow expect anyone who doesn't have diehard patience to get further than 2 hours into the game?
I realize fun is subjective and some might enjoy the "challenge" of taking time to figure out something abstract. I'm not knocking that.
For me, personally, I find it off-putting because the game assumes too much and it becomes frustrating to a point that I give up. That's not fun to me. More often than not, I imagine an "aha" Jonathan Blow laughing at me when I'm trying to solve various puzzles to no avail - and the joke is not funny.
Keep in mind, this is coming from a game developer's perspective as well as a gamer.
If you think EVERYTHING The Witness does is cleanly spelled out for players, I'm afraid you are delusional and probably have an attachment to the game in one way or another.
The barrier for entry is so high with 0.0% tutorialization, how can Mr. Blow expect anyone who doesn't have diehard patience to get further than 2 hours into the game?
If you think EVERYTHING The Witness does is cleanly spelled out for players, I'm afraid you are delusional and probably have an attachment to the game in one way or another.
The barrier for entry is so high with 0.0% tutorialization, how can Mr. Blow expect anyone who doesn't have diehard patience to get further than 2 hours into the game?
I realize fun is subjective and some might enjoy the "challenge" of taking time to figure out something abstract. I'm not knocking that.
For me, personally, I find it off-putting because the game assumes too much and it becomes frustrating to a point that I give up. That's not fun to me. More often than not, I imagine an "aha" Jonathan Blow laughing at me when I'm trying to solve various puzzles to no avail - and the joke is not funny.
Keep in mind, this is coming from a game developer's perspective as well as a gamer.
The question boils down to whether it's the responsibility of the game to make those clues sufficiently in-your-face? What is 'sufficient'? What The Witness did was sufficient for me, for the most part, and I appreciate that.
Can you give me an example of a puzzle that you felt was unfair, and then - if I recall it - I'll try to present my thought processes that led to the solution.
The barrier for entry ishow can Mr. Blow expect anyone who doesn't have diehard patience to get further than 2 hours into the game?so high with 0.0% tutorialization,
...
I would of designed it to where there is hand holding at the beginning and then taper off explicit communication over time. Then the gamer feels progression in their ability and can warm up to the thought process required, rather than immediately expecting them to conform to an unorthodox/abrasive design.
Furthermore, "Scientific Method - The Game™" is not what I expected nor what I desired, which is why I have such an allergic reaction to the game's design. I expected an adventure game with puzzle elements, not a sparse "exploration" game where I'm solving snake-like puzzles on panels, all the while wondering why I'm even investing time into solving puzzles that just open doors to other puzzles on panels.
...
I'm all for not entirely targeting the lowest common denominator, but rule #1 in game design is to have an approachable learning curve. The tutorial puzzles that were in place during the beginning of the game were barely adequate for a seasoned gamer of 20+ years.
It's obvious that you're upset at the game, but the problem here seems to be that you're not willing to listen to the game's lessons. You claim there is 0.0% tutorialization, which is not true in the slightest. Every area introduces you to a new concept and does so without popping up gaudy tooltips which spoil the sense of discovery.
I'd say you need to step away from the game if you're going to result to personally insulting me for pointing out what the game is doing. That's not particularly healthy and I don't think I deserve such a crude and inaccurate psychoanalysis. For the record, I had passive interest in the game up until its release. I'm not a fan of puzzle games in the slightest. I enjoy Mr. Blow's talks, even if I don't agree with his approaches to certain concepts, and found Braid good enough to throw down for The Witness without needing to be told about everything that it would toss at me.
It's obvious that you're upset at the game, but the problem here seems to be that you're not willing to listen to the game's lessons. You claim there is 0.0% tutorialization, which is not true in the slightest. Every area introduces you to a new concept and does so without popping up gaudy tooltips which spoil the sense of discovery. Each audio log, though often a bit groan-worthy, contains a message that is there to spell out something for the player to absorb. Every area is designed specifically to reinforce the ideas each unique puzzle element bring to the table. The game won't always point these out with blinking neon arrows, but they become just as obvious once you've finally heard the message being whispered to you.
I'm all for not entirely targeting the lowest common denominator, but rule #1 in game design is to have an approachable learning curve. The tutorial puzzles that were in place during the beginning of the game were barely adequate for a seasoned gamer of 20+ years.
I would of designed it to where there is hand holding at the beginning and then taper off explicit communication over time. Then the gamer feels progression in their ability and can warm up to the thought process required, rather than immediately expecting them to conform to an unorthodox/abrasive design.
Furthermore, "Scientific Method - The Game" is not what I expected nor what I desired, which is why I have such an allergic reaction to the game's design. I expected an adventure game with puzzle elements, not a sparse "exploration" game where I'm solving snake-like puzzles on panels, all the while wondering why I'm even investing time into solving puzzles that just open doors to other puzzles on panels.
While I appreciate your willingness to give your side of a specific puzzle, that misses the point. The point is that the game expects too much of the average player too soon, which is off-putting.
I'm all for not entirely targeting the lowest common denominator, but rule #1 in game design is to have an approachable learning curve. The tutorial puzzles that were in place during the beginning of the game were barely adequate for a seasoned gamer of 20+ years.
I would of designed it to where there is hand holding at the beginning and then taper off explicit communication over time. Then the gamer feels progression in their ability and can warm up to the thought process required, rather than immediately expecting them to conform to an unorthodox/abrasive design.
Furthermore, "Scientific Method - The Game™" is not what I expected nor what I desired, which is why I have such an allergic reaction to the game's design. I expected an adventure game with puzzle elements, not a sparse "exploration" game where I'm solving snake-like puzzles on panels, all the while wondering why I'm even investing time into solving puzzles that just open doors to other puzzles on panels.
Well, not to be overly blunt, but I'm glad Blow threw away whatever rulebook you are using.
That's great he made a game for you.
Does anyone know the name of the song that plays in the release date trailer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ytwNUMdbcE
I'm all for not entirely targeting the lowest common denominator, but rule #1 in game design is to have an approachable learning curve. The tutorial puzzles that were in place during the beginning of the game were barely adequate for a seasoned gamer of 20+ years.
I would of designed it to where there is hand holding at the beginning and then taper off explicit communication over time. Then the gamer feels progression in their ability and can warm up to the thought process required, rather than immediately expecting them to conform to an unorthodox/abrasive design.
Furthermore, "Scientific Method - The Game" is not what I expected nor what I desired, which is why I have such an allergic reaction to the game's design. I expected an adventure game with puzzle elements, not a sparse "exploration" game where I'm solving snake-like puzzles on panels, all the while wondering why I'm even investing time into solving puzzles that just open doors to other puzzles on panels.
While I appreciate your willingness to give your side of a specific puzzle, that misses the point. The point is that the game expects too much of the average player too soon, which is off-putting.
That's great he made a game for you.
It's ironic that we have this criticism against the game where people don't feel guided to solutions, and that that apparently goes against good Gabe design.
I don't ever remember the original Legend of Zelda or Super Mario Brothers teaching me how to play the game, and those games are regarded as classics.
Really? Both of those are pretty weak examples.
SMB had a very linear progression with super easy mechanics. You know as long a you moved forward and completed the simplistic, reactionary obstacles, you'd get to the end of the level and progress.
As for Zelda, you could arguably have fun exploring the world using the base mechanics and figure out what to do. Same with Metroid.
Finding the map on the boat makes it far easier to know where to find the tutorial panels for each type of puzzle. Sped through stuff pretty quick after that.Zeenbor:
I think the problem lies in players trying to solve more complex puzzles with rules/mechanics that you have not been properly introduced to yet, which is an almost unavoidable side-effect of this game being open world.
That happened to me numerous times, and I fought it. Hard. I tried to solve them, and was almost always unsuccessful, unless a brute-force method somehow yielded success. It wasn't until I found panel sequences elsewhere that eased me into a new ruleset. Coming back to the more complex/layered ones then took on a new clarity that really surprised me in that I had actually understood it better from a 'language' perspective.
In that sense, I think The Witness is pretty brilliant, and would have been far less effective as a gated, linear experience with an equally linear learning curve.
Full disclosure: I'm pretty terrible at puzzle games. In The Talos Principle, I had to use a guide through much of world C, and I'd say a good 75% of the stars were completely lost on me in terms of how to get them. I suppose that's why I'm so delighted to understand The Witness as well as I do, even though I'm not even close to being done with it.
Zeenbor:
I think the problem lies in players trying to solve more complex puzzles with rules/mechanics that you have not been properly introduced to yet, which is an almost unavoidable side-effect of this game being open world.
That happened to me numerous times, and I fought it. Hard. I tried to solve them, and was almost always unsuccessful, unless a brute-force method somehow yielded success. It wasn't until I found panel sequences elsewhere that eased me into a new ruleset. Coming back to the more complex/layered ones then took on a new clarity that really surprised me in that I had actually understood it better from a 'language' perspective.
In that sense, I think The Witness is pretty brilliant, and would have been far less effective as a gated, linear experience with an equally linear learning curve.
Really? Both of those are pretty weak examples.
SMB had a very linear progression with super easy mechanics. You know as long a you moved forward and completed the simplistic, reactionary obstacles, you'd get to the end of the level and progress.
1) SMB 1-1 is one of the finest tutorials ever crafted. It presents numerous things to the player without ever explaining most of them (the sole exception is the 1up mushroom) with a single letter of text, instead relying on players trying out the controls and testing interactions with objects in the world to do various things:
Fun little anecdote about me with SMB:
I managed to completely miss the fact that collecting a super mushroom made you grow big. I'm always amused by the anecdotes of how the start of the game was designed to organically teach you key concepts, because it was based around the notion that the player was expected to fail at something to learn some information.
Which leads back to The Witness, somewhat - SMB failed - for me - in that regard because I had felt that the penalty for failure was a problem. I avoided the scary moving mushroom because it was a scary moving mushroom, and mushrooms are poisonous, therefore it was probably a threat. So I avoided it, and went on about my merry business - it was a oneshot threat, it was easy enough to avoid, and then I moved on. I didn't even have the opportunity to experiment with it. In TW, though, there is little penalty for failure - none whatsoever in many cases - with the only places where there is a penalty there's the expectation that you should have learned the rules by now.
I can appreciate your perspective and it almost makes me want to give the game another chance.
But brute force is not a fun mechanic, especially when the method for interacting and solving puzzles is so uninteresting, both aesthetically and from a contextual perspective.
I feel like this game doesn't value my time even if it expects my so-called intelligence and patience.
Honestly, I don't think this game is for me. I primarily play games for entertainment and moments of difficulty. Not the opposite.
I need some advice, friends.
I did everything in the game except forthe challenge. I haven't even properly tried it yet.
The Witness is one of my favourite games of the last 5 years, and I'm not sure if that last bit is just going to frustrate me and maybe slightly tarnish my view of the game. Or if it'll be worth it when II haven't played it in a couple weeks, kind of debating it.get the platinum?
What say you?
Yeah, through my many edits of that post, I was going to qualify my statement about brute-force being the worst possible way to solve them (even worse than looking at clues/guides, IMO).I can appreciate your perspective and it almost makes me want to give the game another chance.
But brute force is not a fun mechanic, especially when the method for interacting and solving puzzles is so uninteresting, both aesthetically and from a contextual perspective.
I feel like this game doesn't value my time even if it expects my so-called intelligence and patience.
Honestly, I don't think this game is for me. I primarily play games for entertainment and moments of difficulty. Not the opposite.
1) SMB 1-1 is one of the finest tutorials ever crafted. It presents numerous things to the player without ever explaining most of them (the sole exception is the 1up mushroom) with a single letter of text, instead relying on players trying out the controls and testing interactions with objects in the world to do various things:
- You can jump over enemies (1st Goomba).
- You can jump on enemies to squish them (1st Goomba).
- You can interact with blocks by hitting them from below with a jump (1st set of blocks).
- ? blocks hide items.
- Mushrooms make you bigger.
- When you're bigger, you can take damage twice (you'll revert back to Small Mario if you take damage).
- When you're bigger, you can break brick blocks when you hit them from below.
- You can press down on some pipes (but not all pipes) to enter them from above and access a different underground bonus area.
- Sometimes there are hidden invisible blocks that give you power-ups and other items.
- Green mushrooms give you an extra life.
- If you hit a block that yields a mushroom while you're already bigger, you get a flower instead that lets you shoot fireballs.
- Some blocks yield stars that make you invincible for a short time.
- Not all enemies die immediately after being jumped on; some of them leave behind shells that can be kicked to destroy enemies and blocks.
- Hitting a higher point on the flagpole at the end of the level yields more points.
- Hitting the flagpole with a certain counter remaining on the clock causes fireworks to show up that yield even more points.
2) What you've said about Zelda and Metroid is precisely what makes a comparison to The Witness valid. You can keep exploring until you find something that you figure out you can do with your current items (in The Witness's case, your current knowledge of puzzle rules).
I need some advice, friends.
I did everything in the game except forthe challenge. I haven't even properly tried it yet.
The Witness is one of my favourite games of the last 5 years, and I'm not sure if that last bit is just going to frustrate me and maybe slightly tarnish my view of the game. Or if it'll be worth it when II haven't played it in a couple weeks, kind of debating it.get the platinum?
What say you?
The sort of diceroll nature of the challenge might end up leaving you kind of disappointed if you end up completing it only because you got handed a particularly easy sequence of puzzles. But as a way of forcing you to think quickly and intuit your way through puzzles rather than taking lots of time to contemplate them, I thought it was really fun and satisfying. You'll probably get sick of the counter tracks real quick, though.
While the meta view of the game design might be similar, the actuality of what you do to interact with the world is apples and oranges when comparing those games to The Witness. There is an immediacy to the cause and effect of Zelda/Metroid game mechanics because the toolset facilitates that. The toolset in The Witness means you get stuck way more often.
While the meta view of the game design might be similar, the actuality of what you do to interact with the world is apples and oranges when comparing those games to The Witness. There is an immediacy to the cause and effect of Zelda/Metroid game mechanics because the toolset facilitates that. The toolset in The Witness means you get stuck way more often.
While mechanically different, The Witness was designed with 'getting stuck' as an outcome. One of the first lessons the game provides is the importance of continued exploration when confronted with something you cannot solve. Right outside the opening castle is a panel you can't possibly know how to solve. You then move past it to find the tutorial panels, which explain clearly how to operate the seemingly complex door you just passed. This is the game introducing the non-linear nature of the learning, encouraging you to keep exploring if you hit a wall.While the meta view of the game design might be similar, the actuality of what you do to interact with the world is apples and oranges when comparing those games to The Witness. There is an immediacy to the cause and effect of Zelda/Metroid game mechanics because the toolset facilitates that. The toolset in The Witness means you get stuck way more often.
Also, I think you're misreading what ghibli99 was saying about brute forcing: you never actually need to do it. You'll only ever have to do it if you encounter a puzzle you haven't found the primer for and attempt to solve it without correctly understanding its rules. It's not something the game intends for you to do.
While the meta view of the game design might be similar, the actuality of what you do to interact with the world is apples and oranges when comparing those games to The Witness. There is an immediacy to the cause and effect of Zelda/Metroid game mechanics because the toolset facilitates that. The toolset in The Witness means you get stuck way more often.
Whether or not it's what the game intends for you to do, it happened to me on so many occasions I stopped having fun.
Even the game saying "You don't have sufficient knowledge to figure this out yet" in the first few puzzles would of been enough of a clue to for me to start exploring to figure out the primer.
This is the type of stuff that helps.