Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I really do suggest you find the boat. You can unlock it fairly early from the boathouse. It has a map that shows you what areas correspond with what symbols, and can take you right to them.
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The Witness |OT|
- Thread starter Afro
- Start date
While for some puzzles, I did get feedback and was able to ascertain a ruleset, I didn't get visual feedback on subsequent puzzles I tried to solve. That's where brute force fails to be a fun mechanic and frustration sets in.
Now some are saying I wasn't paying attention to the feedback from the game. Some of that might be true - but it's the game's responsibility to make that apparent. The open-world design obfuscates that and makes it more difficult to the average player, IMO.
For me I'd say the fact that I didn't have sufficient knowledge to figure it out yet was enough of a clue that I didn't have sufficient knowledge to figure it out yet! That is, the fact that there were symbols I didn't recognise led me to the conclusion that I would learn about them later, because this was clearly not intended to teach me, this was intended to test me.
Look at the actual tutorials - all of them start with completely trivial examples.
Edit: I do think this would still be an easier conversation to have if you could give us a specific example of a puzzle that you felt gave inadequate feedback.
You know what's funny about the boat?
Once I surfaced it, I hopped on, looked at the map, looked at the panel, and thought I had to solve some other puzzle to activate it. I had no idea I could actually draw paths on the map. LOL I just happened to give it a shot much, much later, and was like WTF, that actually worked.
I felt so, so very dumb. Haha!
Frustration does mean the designer failed - to me. I realize many people enjoyed the game and I respect that. I am entitled to my opinion.
What The Witness does, relentlessly, is encourage you to look around and observe, because every solution to the game is found in observation. They're all there. There are a couple principles that could be made more clear initially, but by and large the issue you're describing is a failure of observation on your part, which sounds awful to say, but I think it's clear that's what's happening given the issues you have with the game. It might simply be the game is not for you, which is a bummer. Personally, I've accepted that I'm not sharp enough to beat everything, but I'll do what I can do - and am making slow, steady progress.
Something Jonathan Blow said before the game came out might be applicable here. He said in an interview that puzzles are something that take effort to solve - and you might not be able to do it. If you can solve everything with little effort, then it's not really a puzzle. If you are not observant enough, then you simply won't beat the game, in the same way you won't beat a shooter with awful reflexes. Getting stuck is very much part of the game.
As an example:
The game does exactly that, very clearly.
SmiteOfHand
Member
People get frustrated because they can't close a door sometimes. That isn't always the door designers fault, sometimes people are just in shitty moods.
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
As someone else mentioned earlier, I don't believe that Blow cares about the average player. This game isn't designed for mass consumption, that's what makes the people that are attuned to it love it so much, and the people that don't like it, which is perfectly fine, run the other way.
Not all games need to be for everyone, just like not all books need to be for everyone.
Your posts are my absolute favorite to read in this thread. I remember when you threw in the towel weeks ago and I was so excited when you came back. I can't exactly pinpoint why I'm so invested in an internet stranger's progress in a video game, but I really respect that you're doing what you can to push your limits.
I'm busy right now but I can boot the game up tonight and do a write up on specific puzzles from the 1st 2 hours.
oreomunsta
Banned
The game has upheld its responsibility to teach you its rules, and there is a reason for why later puzzles don't give you visual feedback; the game assumes that if you're attempting a certain difficult puzzle, you must have retained your knowledge on the rules that the tutorials taught you, if you're serious about solving it.
If you find that you're brute forcing it, you either don't remember the rules, or you never bothered to learn them in the first place. This game holds its end of the bargain and assumes that you'll uphold yours. What it won't hold is your hand, and that's one reason why this game is so unique in today's gaming landscape.
"I made contact with the doorknob and slid my hand to the right, and the thing didn't open!"
M3Freak
Banned
I'm in the castle working through the shrub maze puzzles. I solved the first two without any problem. I got to the third - completely dumb founded. Then I started to think that maybe it's something to do with sound this time, but I couldn't hear anything obvious.
I went online to find a solution. Sure enough, it was sound related. But, fuck me if I can figure out how the shitty sound has anything to do with puzzle itself. Fuckity fuck fucks!
I didn't look up the solution for the fourth one: it's more of the same. I decide to give it the virtual one finger salute and tried to jump off cliffs instead. I failed miserably at that, too.
I'll go off and try my luck at some other impossible puzzles for now. Maybe later I'll know what to with this asshole maze.
Don't get me wrong: I like the game!!
I went online to find a solution. Sure enough, it was sound related. But, fuck me if I can figure out how the shitty sound has anything to do with puzzle itself. Fuckity fuck fucks!
I didn't look up the solution for the fourth one: it's more of the same. I decide to give it the virtual one finger salute and tried to jump off cliffs instead. I failed miserably at that, too.
I'll go off and try my luck at some other impossible puzzles for now. Maybe later I'll know what to with this asshole maze.
Don't get me wrong: I like the game!!
I'm talking words, not symbolism or environmental context. Again, I feel like this is only necessary in the beginning.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Similar boat dumbness from me:
it took me a long time to realise you could change the direction of the boat while it was moving, I thought you were stuck with whatever route you chose. No idea why, in hindsight.
Not sure if you've reached them yet, but some puzzles require you to be on the boat and observe points from certain angles. Now imagine how long that took me when I thought you got one shot and had to sail all the way to the next port if you missed it...
Not sure if you've reached them yet, but some puzzles require you to be on the boat and observe points from certain angles. Now imagine how long that took me when I thought you got one shot and had to sail all the way to the next port if you missed it...
I'd appreciate that, I am genuinely curious.
I've got a strong fondness for puzzles in general - I've written some quite extensive posts analysing and considering their makeup and elements, You'll notice on here I've often written hints to people in the form of chain-of-thought spoilers, taking one observation at a time and applying it to the puzzle. However, they're always somewhat tarnished by the fact that it's going through, well, my understanding - what I've observed, what I've failed to observe, what I've assumed, what I've deduced. I'm often intrigued to hear other peoples' experiences with how they thought about solving puzzles - either successfully or otherwise.
Not everything can be turned into a metaphor.
Maybe the game is too difficult for me and I get frustrated and give up. Just because you can solve it and I didn't doesn't make me in a shitty mood.
LegendofLex
Member
Why does a game whose puzzle syntax is entirely made up of symbols and environmental context, whose progression is based entirely on testing assumptions about what those various symbols and environmental elements mean, benefit from having explicit instructions spelled out in words (leaving no room for the player to make and test assumptions) in the beginning (or even at any point)? Wouldn't that simply obviate any need for progress through that set of assumption-tests? Isn't that a damnable trait when it manifests in puzzle games?
Quick note: I have not finished the game yet and don't know about other types that may come up, but I was curious about something:
I'm actually curious how people first
I'm actually curious how people first
found out about the + environmental puzzles?
I had quite a nice moment on the desert area, which is actually the first area I went to right after the Bunker tutorial area. I could not figure out the actual wheel panels yet, so I just walked around, climbed the stairs, and noticed I could go further up.
Went all the way up to the top, and looked around, only to obviously look down and find it.... odd how the sun was reflecting on the ground and that there seemed to be paths on the ground? Weird.
Pressed X.
Moved the cursor around, why not. Pressed X at the Circle.
:O :O :O
I had quite a nice moment on the desert area, which is actually the first area I went to right after the Bunker tutorial area. I could not figure out the actual wheel panels yet, so I just walked around, climbed the stairs, and noticed I could go further up.
Went all the way up to the top, and looked around, only to obviously look down and find it.... odd how the sun was reflecting on the ground and that there seemed to be paths on the ground? Weird.
Pressed X.
Moved the cursor around, why not. Pressed X at the Circle.
:O :O :O
LegendofLex
Member
Noticed that there was a straight black line on the floor in the very first room (which incidentally included a straight-line puzzle). Saw that there was a large black dot made up of the shadows at the far end. Realized - through much trial and error - that it lined up with the top of the doorframe.
Answering your question could very well spoil a puzzle for you, but I assume you realized this when you asked it.
I also first noticed them in the desert on a reflectivity puzzle, specifically the one on the large broken cross-shaped structure that faces the shoreline. The loudness of the noise scared the shit out of me, but it was an awesome moment.
While you make a good point of being consistent, being too consistent for the sake of purity has its downsides. I like games that ease you into them and then challenge you, not challenge you to ease into them. Of course, this is based on my own personal experiences.
I feel like the game just needs a little bit of very explicit verbal handholding to make the foundation of what it expects from you more apparent. Or even the option (and make that apparent).
Anyway, we're repeating ourselves.
oreomunsta
Banned
For me, it was in the
Monastery.
I fooled around with the mechanism that opens the blinds and through one of the holes, I saw the shape of a person.
At that point, I though "What the flying fuck?
That looks just like a person!
Huh, if the melon fills up the head cavity, it looks like a brain. This probably doesn't mean anything....
*click*
WHAT THE FLYING, FLIPPING FUCK??
I fooled around with the mechanism that opens the blinds and through one of the holes, I saw the shape of a person.
At that point, I though "What the flying fuck?
That looks just like a person!Huh, if the melon fills up the head cavity, it looks like a brain. This probably doesn't mean anything....
*click*
WHAT THE FLYING, FLIPPING FUCK??
Another passage I've written before, which indicates how I worked it out. It was quite a lengthy process for me!
(The self-quote below is connected to the spoilers)
I had a three-stage process of figuring it out.
The first stage was noticing the bit of yellow machinery not far from the first two tutorial sections (for dots and B/W squares). At that stage I did actually try to activate it, but due to not quite fully understanding the mechanic, it didn't work.
Following this stage I did notice it a few times as a recurring motif, (most notably the window in the village - next to the dock - looking on to the orange shipping crate) but dismissed it as, well, a recurring motif.
The second stage was the river view from the mountain. I did register that the panel looked the same as the river, but I came to the conclusion that activating the panel had made the river flow... for some reason (If you look back through my comments in the thread, you'll see that in there
The third and final stage was the windmill. I'd figured out that the panel inside the windmill controlled the blades; fair enough. But what use are the blades? A quick thought led me to the actual discovery.
Then it got consolidated - big-time - when I climbed the church tower and saw the big black wall there. I may have been giggling when I triggered that one.
Yeah, I figured I could hit a couple of spoilers, but
I'm just really interested on that first AHA! moment and if maybe it took some people dozens of hours or something to hit one of those
Aahhhh, yeah, I had forgotten that the river one at the top of the mountain nearly spells it out. I imagine a lot of people hit that one first?
Aahhhh, yeah, I had forgotten that the river one at the top of the mountain nearly spells it out. I imagine a lot of people hit that one first?
got the platinum trophy. loved the game. the plat was tough, and there was a moment when i thought about
but i actually did it legit. Considering uploading a video to help encourage those seeking the platinum trophy.
.
using rest mode and a camera to beat the Challenge.
I rewatched it and when i got to the board that shows you the way through the maze at the end, i was like "how the fuck did i complete this run?" and then i get to the pillars for only my second time ever and nearly one-shot both of them. god tier RNG i guess.
My last thought on the subject for now (I need to go and eat!), another thing I wrote a while back about puzzles... and trust:
I think that pretty much encapsulates everything we've spoken about here?
Time to try the shipwreck puzzle again. Ugh.
edit: Got it. Had to read several consecutive hints which ultimately described the solution.
Alright, the drops are low-high-mid. Could theoretically be a different order, but read some hints, and someone confirmed this order. The creaking noise is mid-low-mid-high. Dunno about the order.
Apparently, these are the only two noises. But why are there three colors, then? Which colors do correspond to which sounds? And furthermore, which line corresponds to which colors?
Apparently, these are the only two noises. But why are there three colors, then? Which colors do correspond to which sounds? And furthermore, which line corresponds to which colors?
edit: Got it. Had to read several consecutive hints which ultimately described the solution.
Were you playing with the music on? I understand why some would turn that off, but it made me exhilarated after both pillars were solved and the music was nearing its end. It was my greatest emotional reaction while playing it, haha
Congrats!
LegendofLex
Member
I don't think it's "for the sake of purity," really. I think it's for the sake of training the player to realize when their assumptions about how to solve a particular puzzle are flawed. Putting in explanations for the game's mechanics would actively discourage players arriving at this conclusion through their own logical reasoning, because in the early stages they'd be trained not by thinking through their mistakes on their own, but by being told what to do/not to do.
I don't just think this would make the game less pure; I think it would actually break the logic-based assumption-testing that's at the center of the game.
It's the same reason why educators realize now that drilling times-tables into kids heads doesn't actually teach them how to multiply numbers - what that actually means. Taking shortcuts to solutions when first wrapping your head around a critical concept actually hurts your ability to learn and think correctly.
Impressive!
Truthfully, unless I got stuck with a particularly straightforward maze design, I usually wound up rushing frantically through until I spotted one of the puzzles anyway.
But to have made it through without making that connection in the first place is pretty awesome nonetheless!
But to have made it through without making that connection in the first place is pretty awesome nonetheless!
Words are not needed when the game can communicate effectively without them. In this case, it would actually undermine the purpose of the tutorial, which is to teach the need for observation and learning. Using a sign to tell you to pay attention to your surroundings would work against what the game actually teaching you.
Finding a door you cannot solve, and then seeing the tutorials just past them, where you can do them in any order, or skip them and wander off in any direction, is more effective than a piece of text telling you the game is non-linear.
The Witness is all about showing, not telling.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Try completing it without realizing there is a way to make the line go faster.
Still.. not.. bitter..
oreomunsta
Banned
That is entirely subjective.
It's interesting... I'm clicking on all these spoilers, and even though a lot of them have to do with puzzles I haven't done yet, because I have virtually zero context (mostly visually), they don't even read as spoilers to me. In fact, they might be confusing me even further.
ones especially! LOL
Oh man, yeah, the
shipwreck and entry area perimeter
GreyOcelot
Member
wait, WHAT???? there's a frickin way to make the line go faster??? i solved 500+ puzzles without knowing this? let me guess, it's hold L2 isn't it?
LegendofLex
Member
It's not, in this case.
A puzzle tells you when the solution is valid, and it tells you when the solution is not valid. There's no ambiguity; you get direct feedback indicating whether you're right (the solution locking in place) or wrong (the buzzing sound).
The game also is perfectly consistent about what makes a solution valid, and what makes a solution invalid. Any ambiguity comes from the player making false or incomplete assumptions about the conditions, based on a limited or incomplete understanding of the puzzle's parameters. It is also often really difficult to isolate a solution that will work even if your assumptions about the rules are true.
Whether a player can recognize which assumptions are true or false, and whether they can see the solution easily, is indeed up to the player. But whether the game gives you enough information to make correct assumptions (because there is a pattern that holds true) and eliminate incorrect ones (because an assumed pattern does not hold true) and thus deduce a valid solution is not subjective; it is definitely true, otherwise no one would be able to complete the game without brute forcing at least some of the puzzles.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
Don't remind me }It's interesting... I'm clicking on all these spoilers, and even though a lot of them have to do with puzzles I haven't done yet, because I have virtually zero context (mostly visually), they don't even read as spoilers to me. In fact, they might be confusing me even further.
Oh man, yeah, theones especially! LOLshipwreck and entry area perimeter
toythatkills
Member
This is always thrown out there as "omg best tutorial ever" but a lot of it relies on luck and coincidence. Like, literally the first point on your list "you can jump over enemies" - if I give the controller to my mum she probably understands "left" and "right" and then walks right into the goomba and dies. She doesn't jump it. If she messes around with the controls and learns jumping before she gets to the goomba, the goomba is in the wrong place to be jumped on by bouncing off the blocks above. Etc. You could easily complete 1-1 and learn 10% of what you posted above.
It's a good tutorial for people who already know how to play games, which is fine, but it's not like it's the holy grail of tutorial levels or something.
Yeah. There should be a small wall to jump over before making the player encounter an enemy.
LegendofLex
Member
You could. But that 10% - knowing how to jump over enemies and obstacles - is one of the only skills you actually need to complete most of the game.
You never need to pick up a single coin or power-up, slay a single enemy, kick a single shell, break a single block, or understand the score rules associated with the flagpoles to actually finish Super Mario Bros. It just makes things a lot easier.
Eventually you'll need to know how to use pipes and (IIRC) hit invisible blocks, too, but you're given plenty of other opportunities to discover that later on.
I'm not saying that every player will learn every one of those things in World 1-1 or even by the end of the game. But all of those things are available to be discovered in World 1-1, and the game never once throws a single piece of text at you to explain any of it.
This is a pretty good indication that modern-style "explain every facet of the mechanics through direct instruction" tutorials aren't needed for a wide audience to enjoy a game.
I don't see how this is bad design? You literally can't progress through the game if you don't figure out that the A button makes you jump. That's no different if she walks right into a Goomba or right into a wall.
Current puzzle count:
. Shit. Now what? I
Ouch.
Yep, that's the one.
522
Ouch.
Yep, that's the one.
toythatkills
Member
I would also argue that not all those things are discoverable in 1-1. It's impossible to discover that landing higher on the flag-pole will net you more points, and arguably impossible to learn of the fireworks also.
I'm not saying it's a bad tutorial level, because it's not, it's just that a lot of the things it's given credit for are just accidents of design, or things which people have given it credit for because they know how to play games and it makes sense to them, without truly thinking about how someone who's never played games would interact with it.
Elevators (including the two panels to the same elevator in the caves), boat panels in every pier, triangle puzzles, six movies?
LegendofLex
Member
The flagpole/fireworks criticism is definitely fair. You don't really have anything to compare the first level to when you play it for the first time, that's true.
I don't see how you can say these are accidents of design when the people who actually made the level seem to have been quite aware of the functional purpose of the design. Miyamoto's background was actually in industrial design, too, so functional design is in his creative DNA.
Super Mario Bros. was my very first game. It is the game that taught me how to use a game controller, and how to interact with things in a game world. Given how broadly popular it was and how NES was unprecedentedly popular for its time, I'm not sure its ability as a teaching tool is limited to people who know how to play games already. (Were all the 60+ million owners experienced gamers, even though that adoption rate is way higher than any other game machine to-date?) It had to have done an adequate job teaching all kinds of people who had never played games.
toythatkills
Member
Yeah, maybe I was a bit harsh, but I'm definitely sticking by the latter point. The people who have analysed this level to call it the best tutorial ever have done so with the eyes of people who are massively experienced in games, and it clouds their judgment.
If you watch one of those analysis videos and then give the controller to someone who's never played a game before, I don't think they'd take this amazing perfect path through the level and learn all the tricks as these videos imply they would. It's just an easy level where it's possible to learn a bunch of stuff without the need for text, which makes it a good tutorial level, but then most "level ones" in games of that era could probably say the same thing. I'm not convinced 1-1 is echelons higher than its peers, it's just been analysed more.
Fuck yeah!
Just before writing that post, I had verified that I have indeed solved the upper elevator panel. But just to make sure, I just checked the lower one too, which I was convinced I had already solved. That was it! 523+125+6, finally.
hydrophilic attack
Member
This critique is very frustrating to me. I think the first 80 % of it is a spot on analysis and read of what the game tried successfully to do. Then the last 20 % just turns into an insane rant where apparently all of the game's accomplishments are for nought, just because the writer personally holds a strong antipathy towards Blow, mostly for (if I'm reading it correctly) him being a successful white male game designer. You are right, the world holds numerous injustices, and this is particularly true of the gaming industry. But that doesn't take away from the incredible achievement which is this game.
paperspace
Member
I think Day9 did a decent job explaining this on hist latest episode (it's about ~10 min).
You may disagree but doing it differently would change the game dramatically - arguably for the worse, since the mystery and feel of wonder is a big part of the game.