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Thief |OT| Hide your valuables, Garrett is back in town

SEGAvangelist

SEGAvangelist

Member
NHale said:
Is there any other game releasing next week? Because I've seen a couple of reviewers tweeting about the game they are reviewing right now and if nothing else is launching next week, it's probably about Thief.
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Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare is all I can think of.
 
C

cascardian

Member
Speaking of AI, does the game implement any sort of overall heightened alertness for guards once you're spotted (similarly to MGS and the like), ramping up the overall difficulty of rooms for a time?
 
C

Cave Johnson

Member
cascardian said:
Speaking of AI, does the game implement any sort of overall heightened alertness for guards once you're spotted (similarly to MGS and the like), ramping up the overall difficulty of rooms for a time?
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Nothing of the sort. It's all superficial difficulty to handicap the player. No normal arrows, ghost playthrough only, no highlights, no hud, no reticule and no focus. Some features are simply support for newcomers but the rest is designed around the levels. In which case, rote memorization is required or extreme patience. Neither of which is beneficial the game experience whatsoever.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Cave Johnson said:
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. God, just listening to these devs are already pissing me off. It's realistic because the guard anticipated you? Seems like an auto-target on you the moment you initiate action that has been seen in so many AI-deprived based games. And they consider that realistic? Spare me.

Even if the AI is too "realistic", the game should give enough player-agency to the character to offset the balance. Heck, even the basic inventory of Thief is enough to put you in an advantage.

So let me get this straight: They believe that, for the "hardcore" fans reservations; disabling features while requiring them to play in the most restrictive way possible...... is far more fair than their "realistic" AI.

Are they for real?
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I think you're WAYYYYYYY off base here.

Thief AI was always rather lenient. It was not overly sensitive and, as a result, was incredibly fun to play with. When games like Splinter Cell came along with hyper sensitive AI that would react immediately in a totally binary fashion I always looked to Thief as an example of how to really handle it.

Thief AI was never brutal in the sense that you seem to think it was.
 
S

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
Hanmik said:
this guy is streaming it.. on PS4 ..

http://www.twitch.tv/vanwaleed
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It looked good until the guard saw him... the AI seems pretty bad.

but when he sneaks around and such the game is very atmospheric and moody, i like that.

Edit: i also really like the sound design, footsteps, opening windows, collecting stuff, it all sounds great.
 
C

Cave Johnson

Member
dark10x said:
I think you're WAYYYYYYY off base here.

Thief AI was always rather lenient. It was not overly sensitive and, as a result, was incredibly fun to play with. When games like Splinter Cell came along with hyper sensitive AI that would react immediately in a totally binary fashion I always looked to Thief as an example of how to really handle it.

Thief AI was never brutal in the sense that you seem to think it was.
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I think you're reading my comment out of context. I'm only discussing the current Thief reboot and the developers remarks on their "AI". The original Thief AI is completely different subject altogether and has nothing to do with my original comment.
 
I

IdreamofHIME

Member
I want this, but I move house in 2 weeks and getting a new TV when I move in...so I gotta force myself to wait....but my PS4's belly has been growling for a while, it's needs a new game.
 
T

Turin Turambar

Member
Cave Johnson said:
Devs "dumb" the AI down:
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As others have pointed out, AI in stealth games has always been kind of bad, and it's a "feature".

They are nearly blind, in both distance vision and fov vision.
They unrealistically search for an intruder for only a few dozens of seconds.
They forget what happened before and relax even if they know that night there were intruders on whatever place they are guarding.
Etc

A stealth game with good AI would be brutal.
 
H

human onion

Banned
I would bet the 'dumbed down' AI just means they originally gave them wallhacks or left them on alert for 30 minutes. Either way, the AI would be sufficient as long as the level is designed around it.
 
W

wamberz1

Member
For the love of all that is holy pleaseeeeee be good. Stealth games have been killing it lately, And I want this streak to continue.
 
S

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
MGS2's enemy AI was ahead of it's time. It was so damn good. They saw your shadow, saw footprints, searched for you even if you were hiding in a locker and many many many other things.

It was revolutionary.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Cave Johnson said:
I think you're reading my comment out of context. I'm only discussing the current Thief reboot and the developers remarks on their "AI". The original Thief AI is completely different subject altogether and has nothing to do with my original comment.
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To me it seems like the AI was overly sensitive to the player and they made adjustments so that isn't the case which just happens to be more in-line with other Thief games. We'll see, though.
 
R

Remachinate

Member
Cave Johnson said:
I think you're reading my comment out of context. I'm only discussing the current Thief reboot and the developers remarks on their "AI". The original Thief AI is completely different subject altogether and has nothing to do with my original comment.
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But comparing to the original Thief games should be exactly the point. Garrett's set of tools were designed for a specific AI behavior. If you want an AI system whose realism has been reworked from what the previous games delivered, then the mechanics and options at the player's disposal--those that make Thief the franchise it is--would have to exchanged for something else entirely.
 
C

Cave Johnson

Member
dark10x said:
To me it seems like the AI was overly sensitive to the player and they made adjustments so that isn't the case which just happens to be more in-line with other Thief games. We'll see, though.
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Remachinate said:
But comparing to the original Thief games should be exactly the point. Garrett's set of tools were designed for a specific AI behavior. If you want an AI system whose realism has been reworked from what the previous games delivered, then the mechanics and options at the player's disposal--those that make Thief the franchise it is--would have to exchanged for something else entirely.
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I'll requote myself from the last page so we can all get up to speed regarding this discussion

Cave Johnson said:
Just to set the record straight, I only played the original Thief last year. Haven't played Thief 2 yet. So that nostalgia argument goes outside the window.

Secondly, this is a direct criticism to the developers intention of dumbing down the AI and at no point did I make any comparison to the "old" games.


To be fair, AI is just all smoke and mirrors. Regardless of how "intelligent" they are, there would always be a blind angle to their instructions.

Let's use Thief as an example:

Thing is, you can have "realistic" AI NPC's that will hunt you down or exhibit tracking ability. But this is where you as a Thief come into play. You have tools of either deterrent or an emergency box (smoke bombs, rope-arrows). No MATTER how good an AI is in the game, he is only limited to what his agency allows.

A normal guard shouldn't be as fast, agile as the "thief" player, meaning you can "break" the AI by utilizing every tool you have at your disposal which is why player-agency is required for simulation type of games.

You can create a variety of NPC's to make up for the disadvantage of one. This forces the player to adjust their tactics on the fly instead of relying on what they're accustomed to. Imagine the AI scenarios that can do what other NPC's couldn't and the combination of both (possibly) can push the player to do drastic attempts to get away.

Thing is, if you're just "Man-who-wants-to-steal" type of game, then I can understand the realistic AI criticisms. But you are a thief - a master one at that. Which means you have skills and abilities that counter any normal, so-called realistic aspects of the game.

It's just talentless developers who don't have have the vision or talent to push through these type of experience that's the problem. If only games weren't restricted by budget, we may actually see a proper evolution of the Thief franchise.
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C

Coffee Dog

Banned
So does turning on classic thief mode change the level design to accommodate for my altered abilities? Because if it doesn't, if would feel awkward, mechanically, with the levels being designed around another toolset.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Echoenigma said:
So does turning on classic thief mode change the level design to accommodate for my altered abilities? Because if it doesn't, if would feel awkward, mechanically, with the levels being designed around another toolset.
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since classic thief mode doesnt do anything but add restrictions, I dont see why they would change the leveldesign.
its simply a hard mode and has as much to do with classic thief as bioshock infinites 1999 mode had to do with system shock

nothing
 
T

TheGrue

Member
Any word yet if the later levels get bigger to allow for more exploration and more options to approach doing the objectives like the original games? Seems like the first few levels are fairly linear, even though you have some options, you are kind of funneled to the destination.
 
R

Remachinate

Member
Cave Johnson said:
I'll requote myself from the last page so we can all get up to speed regarding this discussion
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I already saw that post, and regardless of whether you previously made a comparison to the old games, my point is that *it's a mistake not to*. This game is a continuation of the franchise, which comes with a certain understanding of how the games are approached.
What the developers were saying in original article you linked is that the AI had to be dumbed down because the player wasn't given the tools to deal with NPCs at that level of sophistication. To what extent do you modify the tools that define a Thief game in order to accommodate a supposedly more sophisticated AI?

Echoenigma said:
So does turning on classic thief mode change the level design to accommodate for my altered abilities? Because if it doesn't, if would feel awkward, mechanically, with the levels being designed around another toolset.
Click to expand...

Alternatively, the question is whether the level design was approached with these restrictions in place, such that removing those restrictions simply makes playing the game more forgiving.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Cave Johnson said:
It really depends on how you apply it. You can go to the extreme where the AI is fully aware of it's surroundings and still make the game work, provided you are given the tools necessary. In my opinion gameplay comes first. Work the mechanics - then push the AI to the degree that doesn't exceed your player agency. The fact the game is designed for stealth playthrough gives developers more leeway than say your average shooter.

Realistic in this case is all relative. We have realistic visuals (check the Order: 1886) but it still has some surreal aspects to it that makes sense to the game. AI is no different, you're only presenting challenge to the player not replicating another "second life" video game.
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Okay, but having AI that zeros in on your position instantly when you fire an arrow isn't creating player agency, it's removing it, because regardless of whether I could use other tools to escape, it makes using arrows to distract guards pointless.
 
C

Cave Johnson

Member
Remachinate said:
I already saw that post, and regardless of whether you previously made a comparison to the old games, my point is that *it's a mistake not to*. This game is a continuation of the franchise, which comes with a certain understanding of how the games are approached.
What the developers were saying in original article you linked is that the AI had to be dumbed down because the player wasn't given the tools to deal with NPCs at that level of sophistication. To what extent do you modify the tools that define a Thief game in order to accommodate a supposedly more sophisticated AI?
Click to expand...

Again, the whole part of my comment was directed at the Thief reboot developer remarks but since you want to bring this discussion I'll oblige.

Let's start with the dumbed-down AI:

According to the developer, the NPC's apparently smart enough to detect you. Whether this is some wallhack or such is up to speculation. But assume that they are using some refined AI where they actually are aware of their surroundings. This means that if they do get a bead on you, your escape options fall in two categories: Aggressive or regressive. Being aggressive would mean you initiate a combat scenario to give you leeway to escape or use an arsenal of tools (smoke bombs, caltrops, etc) to deter the NPC from capturing/killing you.

The regressive option on the other hand is to directly escape by running away. This means the game must give you enough agency to vault yourself from obstacles that is near impossible for the untrained enemy. This could mean having a variety of options to traverse a-la Mirror's edge as long as the option doesn't compromise the player's action.

Both options won't fundamentally change Thief's design since it utilizes the extra power from modern hardware to create a more refined control system that wasn't possible in the past.

These are the two simplest options available. But now the question remains is how far the sophisticated the AI is at this point? Are they emergent that they will follow through by warning other NPC's making the item in question for the heist more difficult to procure? This would mean the player must be able to compensate by creating distractions, destroying light sources whether it be candle or lamps.

If the player is unable to push through normal means than this is where agency comes in and letting the player "create" his own entrance. Whether it's breaking through windows or having some sort of destructible walls/floors if they are weak enough. Bombs and mines are not foreign to this type of game and letting those properties be used will give a whole new dynamic for player interaction. No doubt, the physics tech even on the PS3/360 should be able to support this type of gameplay.


godelsmetric said:
Okay, but having AI that zeros in on your position instantly when you fire an arrow isn't creating player agency, it's removing it, because regardless of whether I could use other tools to escape, it makes using arrows to distract guards pointless.
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Then the arrows must be discarded entirely if it causes an inherent weakness to the player. This will not bode well for the fans, so if we're going to use "sounds" as part of the AI reactive capabilities we must be give the player tools of short/medium/long range capabilities.

But let's address your "arrow" issue: In this case, the arrow is considered a "long range" device. Meaning, the player must be far away from the NPC's awareness point in order to be utilized properly. Which essentially means bigger levels.

For medium range distractions the player must be able interact with almost anything in the environment. Stones, cups, glasses, books all have different sound properties and they also don't have a initial sound point until object reaches the impact point. This means the player have a nearly unlimited array of useful tools to distract the guard. Or they can create timed events assuming the game supports such fidelity like placing a brick on a slanted surface before it hits the ground. It's does re-emphasize the "sandbox" aspect of the game because it relies solely on the player's creativity (isn't that the point of the sandbox)

Close range is self-explanatory, this is just creating sounds by your own volition. Whether it's walking on hard surface, knocking walls or whatever means you can create sounds with whatever self-interactive capabilities can be useful if you want a minor distraction in close quarters.

And there's my two cents. Of course, there are always superior options but likewise, it's all about the application. NPC AI all have their limitation and sure enough it doesn't need to go to the extreme end. We can at least try something that matches up to the gameplay step-by-step before creating an actual, fully aware AI, but that's a discussion for another time.
 
K

Krakn3Dfx

Member
Got my AMD Never Settle key for this last night and threw it on Steam.

I'm hopefully for something worthwhile, preparing to be disappointed. We'll see.
 
G

GardenSirens

Banned
Team Vernia said:
So, I pre-ordered this game digitally. Did I mess up? Any early reviews or impressions?
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If you have to question if it was a mistake you probably shouldn't have bought it digital. However, I've heard good things about it...I just worry about its re-playability. I'll still pick this up but I'll get the disc so that if it sucks, at least I can recoup some of my loss.
 
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