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[The Adder]

y'know, I was wondering when this story -- the kidnapping and murder of 3 Jewish schoolboys -- would get a thread. I'm not surprised it's when the Israeli military responds.

Pretty sure there was already a thread.

 

[RiZ III]

The cries of 'we are in danger' also come from the Israeli children jumping under their desks every time the siren sounds in the hopes they don't end up the next statistic, like the last kid whose school bus was turned into dust by your so called 'metal scraps with a fuse'. But you have already shown disregard for Israeli children and look how long it took you to grudging concede these murders probably deserve some sort of condemnation, after a diatribe about 'apologists'.

I don't think people really disregard the lives of Israeli children, but when people continue talking about just one side, while the Palestinians are also being bombed (and they don't even have bomb shelters) then it just seems like the person is a hypocrite. The civilians on both sides are suffering. Let's face it, the settlements are illegal and a roadblock to peace, Hamas shooting rockets and calling for the destruction of Israel is a roadblock to peace as well.

Also, Israel's way of retaliating is difficult to justify. Already they have blown up the houses of "suspects" in this trial. Could you imagine having your house blown up because you or someone on your family is suspected in a crime? It's insane. Trapping and starving an entire region is insane and then bombing them constantly which ends up killing many civilians i is unjust and some would say terrorism.

Israel needs to know that the world is watching. Even though the killing of these poor kids has leant them much sympathy, no one likes aggressors either. When Israel responds by killing a tens or hundreds Palestinians in response, Israel is the one who is seen as the bad guy.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I don't think people really disregard the lives of Israeli children, but when people continue talking about just one side, while the Palestinians are also being bombed (and they don't even have bomb shelters) then it just seems like the person is a hypocrite. The civilians on both sides are suffering. Let's face it, the settlements are illegal and a roadblock to peace, Hamas shooting rockets and calling for the destruction of Israel is a roadblock to peace as well.

Also, Israel's way of retaliating is difficult to justify. Already they have blown up the houses of "suspects" in this trial. Could you imagine having your house blown up because you or someone on your family is suspected in a crime? It's insane. Trapping and starving an entire region is insane and then bombing them constantly which ends up killing many civilians i is unjust and some would say terrorism.

Israel needs to know that the world is watching. Even though the killing of these poor kids has leant them much sympathy, no one likes aggressors either. When Israel responds by killing a tens or hundreds Palestinians in response, Israel is the one who is seen as the bad guy.

I totally agree except for the point about Palestinians not having bomb shelters - nothing is stopping Hamas investing their money and energy into building such shelters rather than additional military facilities, smuggling tunnels and villas for their elite. It's just not in their best interest to minimise casualties. Hence they launch weapons from built up areas, school playgrounds etc

 

[-Amon-]

This thread is a good example to understand why the world can't do anything about the israel - palestinian situation.

The public should stop taking sides and try to prove that one side is better than the other. Just condamn these acts, whichever side they come from.

The rulers should do the same. Stop supporting one of both sides, because doing so you become co-responsible of this shit. Embargo the hell out of them till they stop.

 

[ZiZ]

imagine if the headline read:
"Mexican suspected of killing three American teenagers, America responds with airstrikes on Mexico city."

 

[MacNille]

imagine if the headline read:
"Mexican suspected of killing three American teenagers, America responds with airstrikes on Mexico city."

Imagine if the mexican would be shooting rockets at the US 24/7. How would US react then?

 

[archnemesis]

imagine if the headline read:
"Mexican suspected of killing three American teenagers, America responds with airstrikes on Mexico city."

The difference is of course that Mexico wouldn't allow terrorists to launch attacks against civilian Americans. Hamas is either unable or unwilling to police their territory and until they deal with the issue Israel has every right to do it for them.

 

[kmag]

The cries of 'we are in danger' also come from the Israeli children jumping under their desks every time the siren sounds in the hopes they don't end up the next statistic, like the last kid whose school bus was turned into dust by your so called 'metal scraps with a fuse'. But you have already shown disregard for Israeli children and look how long it took you to grudging concede these murders probably deserve some sort of condemnation, after a diatribe about 'apologists'.

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/after-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

The statistics are pretty stark, don't you think. If we're just talking children, then it's 84 vs 6 since 2009, and while it shouldn't make a difference 5 of the Israeli child deaths at Palestinian hands took place in illegally occupied lands with the other in Israel proper.

 

[kmag]

I totally agree except for the point about Palestinians not having bomb shelters - nothing is stopping Hamas investing their money and energy into building such shelters rather than additional military facilities, smuggling tunnels and villas for their elite. It's just not in their best interest to minimise casualties. Hence they launch weapons from built up areas, school playgrounds etc

What would happen if Hamas built bomb shelters? Israel would claim they are storing weapons (they'd probably be right to be fair) and get out the bunker busters.

 

[jorma]

Imagine if the mexican would be shooting rockets at the US 24/7. How would US react then?

They'd keep the imaginary military occupation of Mexico going i guess.
The occupation being the obvious root cause of the imaginary Mexican rockets.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/after-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

The statistics are pretty stark, don't you think.

The numbers would be higher if Israelis didn't have the iron dome missile interception system, bomb shelters, early warning systems and drills to minimise casualties. Also if they put volatile weapons caches next to housing complexes. Also, no country would tolerate ANY number of casualties by this kind of warfare. I don't see any contradiction and I still respect the lives of Palestinians and am depressed whenever I hear about kids dying there too.

 

[kmag]

The numbers would be higher if Israelis didn't have bomb shelters, early warning systems and drills to minimise casualties. Also if they put volatile weapons caches next to housing complexes. Also, no country would tolerate ANY number of casualties by this kind of warfare. I don't see any contradiction and I still respect the lives of Palestinians and am depressed whenever I hear about kids dying there too.

The number of Israeli kids dying would be lower if their families hadn't moved into illegally occupied lands. Of the 6 minors killed by Palestinians since 2009, 1 was in Israel proper, the rest in the West Bank.

Every death in this situation is regrettable and there is no good side to this conflict both sides are morally suspect. Ultimately, if Israeli returned the lands sized in 1967 and were still getting attacked by Hamas then I'd have a lot more sympathy for their position, put as it is they're not only poking a hornets nest they're setting up their tent on it.

 

[The Albatross]

Pretty sure there was already a thread.

Hadn't seen one, searched, didn't find any.

imagine if the headline read:
"Mexican suspected of killing three American teenagers, America responds with airstrikes on Mexico city."

Obviously this kind of analogue is ridiculous ... but ... if rocket attacks were launched from Mexico aimed at civilians in San Antonio every day for the last 10 years, then arguably, I think the US would respond in some way.

The number of Israeli kids dying would be lower if their families hadn't moved into illegally occupied lands. Of the 6 minors killed by Palestinians since 2009, 1 was in Israel proper, the rest in the West Bank.

Every death in this situation is regrettable and there is no good side to this conflict both sides are morally suspect.

You don't have to put the caveat about how every death is regrettable and both sides are to blame. You're clearly more interested in blaming the families of dead israeli children. They're the only suspects you mention here, not the murders, or kidnappers, or anybody else, but the families of dead children. You don't at any point say "the number of Israeli kids dying would be reduced if Palestinian militants stopped murdering them." The murderous militants are, it seems, just an inevitability... like a swimming during a lightning storm.

It's okay to drop the pretense. You can just come out and say what you think -- Israeli children are to blame for the murder of Israeli children. What are they doing walking to school anyway? What with their being jewish and all.

 

[ZiZ]

The difference is of course that Mexico wouldn't allow terrorists to launch attacks against civilian Americans. Hamas is either unable or unwilling to police their territory and until they deal with the issue Israel has every right to do it for them.

No the difference is that America hasn't imposed sanctions on Mexico, denying them basic human rights and humanitarian aid or is building settlements on mexican land.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

The number of Israeli kids dying would be lower if their families hadn't moved into illegally occupied lands. Of the 6 minors killed by Palestinians since 2009, 1 was in Israel proper, the rest in the West Bank.

Don't see how that is relevant. I never used figures about kids killed in the West Bank to support any of my arguments and I have already expressed my opposition to settlements beyond the 1967 borders.

 

[otapnam]

Mexico is a horrible analogy

 

[kmag]

Don't see how that is relevant. I never used figures about kids killed in the West Bank to support any of my arguments and I have already expressed my opposition to settlements beyond the 1967 borders.

You mentioned statistics. Israeli citizens while still under attack in Israel proper are under very little danger of actually becoming a death statistic, especially compared to Palestinian citizens who have no where to go.

 

[archnemesis]

No the difference is that America hasn't imposed sanctions on Mexico, denying them basic human rights and humanitarian aid or is building settlements on mexican land.

Nothing justifies indiscriminate attacks against civilians. The attacks against Israelis should cease immediately regardless of all the other issues in the conflict.

 

[sonicmj1]

Just for the record, Bobby, did you know that the Jews were probably the most privileged among all in the beloved Roman Empire? At one point they didn't even need to bow to the caesar. They had more autonomy compared to other nations, they could practice their religion without restrictions (!!!!).
But you do you know what the Jews did, Bobby? Do you?
They would be ungrateful Bobby. They would want more. They would take a town and claim it as their own. They would want to make a little Jewish state in the middle of the Roman Empire. You can imagine how well that went. After all things done, they would get another "antisemite" guilt card up their sleeve. Now I'm not pointing all the blame on the Jews, but they're usually responsible for their own fate.

This sounds like you're suggesting that the 2,000+ year history of antisemitism is a conspiracy of justified reactions provoked by the Jewish people to get "guilt cards" so they could have their own state in the distant future.

It's so baffling I don't know how to respond. I don't even know why you brought it up.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

You mentioned statistics. Israeli citizens while still under attack in Israel proper are under very little danger of actually becoming a death statistic, especially compared to Palestinian citizens who have no where to go.

No I didn't, you said 'the statistics are pretty stark' and I wanted to show that the statistics weren't relevant to the current discussion and also explain why the numbers don't reflect the real fear that permeates the lives of Israelis who live within rocket range of the Gaza strip.

We could also talk about how Hamas ensures the death rate of its children remains so high.

 

[kmag]

Hadn't seen one, searched, didn't find any.



Obviously this kind of analogue is ridiculous ... but ... if rocket attacks were launched from Mexico aimed at civilians in San Antonio every day for the last 10 years, then arguably, I think the US would respond in some way.



You don't have to put the caveat about how every death is regrettable and both sides are to blame. You're clearly more interested in blaming the families of dead israeli children. They're the only suspects you mention here, not the murders, or kidnappers, or anybody else, but the families of dead children.

It's okay to drop the pretense. You can just come out and say what you think -- Israeli children are to blame for the murder of Israeli children. What are they doing walking to school anyway? What with their being jewish and all.

Oh grow up. And bravo, I think that hit every single line in "calling someone anti-Semitic" bingo.

You move your family to a war zone on illegal land (and ultimately that is what they are doing) and if something happens to your family then yes I think you have to take some responsibility for it. The statistics are pretty clear, you don't live in illegal settlements on stolen land and your chances and that of your family dying via Palestinian attack are far far less.

As I've said I Israel pulls back to it's 1967 borders and is still attacked then I'd have a lot more sympathy for their position as a country.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

As I've said I Israel pulls back to it's 1967 borders and is still attacked then I'd have a lot more sympathy for their position as a country.

A small but crucial point: it is the settlements, not the occupation itself that is illegal. But anyway, Israel did the right thing in pulling out of Gaza, and look what happened, violence increased and the lives of ordinary Palestinians there got a whole lot worse. Even if you think the violence there is based on the continuing settlement of the West Bank, surely you can understand how this precedent didn't lead to a similar pull out in the West Bank yet. Of course, this doesn't justify the settlements there and there is no way to justify the expansion of existing settlements - a really fucking idiotic move if you ask me. But asking Israel to fully pull out without a negotiated peace treaty is unreasonable.

 

[Oersted]

This sounds like you're suggesting that the 2,000+ year history of antisemitism is a conspiracy of justified reactions provoked by the Jewish people to get "guilt cards" so they could have their own state in the distant future.

It's so baffling I don't know how to respond. I don't even know why you brought it up.

These threads always attract thinly veiled antisemitism.

 

[MacNille]

You know the worst part about this whole damn conflict? It could have been solved 14 years ago, at a camp David. Israel was prepare to give Palestine 94 % of what they asked but thanks to fucking Arafat, who wanted everything or nothing, the peace talk torpedo down the shitter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit

 

[ZiZ]

Nothing justifies indiscriminate attacks against civilians. The attacks against Israelis should cease immediately regardless of all the other issues in the conflict.

I agree, nothing justifies attacks against civilians, yet the number of israeli civilians killed is a tiny fraction compared to the number of Palestinians killed, or wounded and denied access medical attention. Not to mention the thousands of Palestinians that are being detained every year.

 

[phalestine]

Imagine if the mexican would be shooting rockets at the US 24/7. How would US react then?

We need to understand the core issue at hand here. Hypothetically speaking, would you please answer why mexico would shoot rockets at the US 24/7?

It comes down to simply basic human rights. Some Palestinians choose the path to fight fire with fire to achieve this, while others have recently chosen a more peaceful path. The sad truth is that both paths end up with the same result.

 

[RiZ III]

I totally agree except for the point about Palestinians not having bomb shelters - nothing is stopping Hamas investing their money and energy into building such shelters rather than additional military facilities, smuggling tunnels and villas for their elite. It's just not in their best interest to minimise casualties. Hence they launch weapons from built up areas, school playgrounds etc

Actually the blockade on Gaza is what is preventing it. It restricts what would be needed for reinforced structures such as a bomb shelter. That said, I don't think anyone here agrees that Hamas is a good leader for its people.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israelis-demand-blood-after-youths-bodies-found

Israeli leaders call for "war of annihilation" and to "make Ramadan a month of darkness" after teens' bodies found

Israel launched air strikes against the occupied Gaza Strip in the early hours of Tuesday morning and reports from Hebron in the West Bank say that occupation forces damaged or destroyed the homes of the families of two men Israel claims were behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli youths.

Israel says its bombing of Gaza is in “retaliation” for rocket fire from the territory, but Israel has escalated the situation in recent days with an upsurge of extrajudicial executions. There were no immediate reports of injuries.

Israeli politicians have called for blood, one demanding that Ramadan be turned into a “month of darkness.” Meanwhile the United States has called for “restraint.”

Bodies found

The latest Israeli violence followed the discovery of the bodies of the three youths near the occupied West Bank city of Hebron on Monday.

They went missing on 12 June while hitchhiking between Israeli settlements.

Israel has claimed that Hamas was responsible for the killings, an accusation the group has denied.

Twitter user @Pal_1948 in Hebron posted this image of an area resident attempting to put out fires in one of the houses that Israeli forces blew up on twitter.

Israel recently announced that it planned to resume punitive home demolitions after suspending the practice a decade ago.

Collective punishment is a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention which states that no one living under occupation “may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed.”

Palestinians braced for worse to come as Israeli leaders began to call for blood in response to the teenagers’ deaths.

Calls for revenge

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu led the pack, calling the killers of the youths “human animals” and stating “Hamas is responsible. Hamas will pay.” Netanyahu specifically used the word “revenge” hinting at what he may have in store. But many went even further.

Former Israeli lawmaker Michael Ben-Ari posted a video and a statement demanding “to transfer the pain to the cruel enemy. Make Ramadan into a month of darkness for them!”

We are living in a “jungle,” Ben-Ari said, calling Palestinian children “little terrorists.”

He called for a rally in Jerusalem on Tuesday demanding: “Death to the enemy, evacuation, and wiping off of [their] smile. And start with Haneen Zoabi, let her go help in Syria,” he said, referring to the Palestinian lawmaker in Israel’s parliament, the Knesset.

Housing minister Uri Ariel called for the extrajudicial executions of leaders of Hamas and for Israel to “start a wave of construction in the settlements in response to the murder of the abductees.”

Limor Livnat, the minister for culture and sports, wrote on Facebook, “May God avenge their blood.”

Tzachi Hanegbi, a former cabinet minister from the ruling Likud party, speculated, “I don’t know how many Hamas leaders will remain alive after tonight.”

Tzipi Hotovely, another Likud lawmaker and deputy minister, wrote that “Israel must declare a war of annihilation of Hamas, which is responsible for the murder, and return to the assassination policy.”

Economy minister Naftali Bennett, leader of the ultra-anti-Palestinian Jewish Home party, declared “Murderers of children and those who direct them cannot be forgiven. Now is a time for actions, not words.”

Agriculture minister Yair Shamir took the news as an opportunity to incite against Palestinian citizens of Israel, whom he accused of defending the kidnapping. “It will not be long before history settles the account with you,” he wrote on Facebook.

Calls for any sort of restraint were virtually absent. Alarmed by the atmosphere of incitement, Israeli human rights group B’Tselem called on the government to “refrain from acts of vengeance” and warned of “revenge” attacks by settlers.

Incitement on social media

From the moment news broke that the Israeli youths’ bodies were found, Israeli social media, including Twitter and the Facebook pages of major Israeli media outlets such as Walla! News, were quickly filled with pervasive and lurid calls for bloodshed that have become all too familiar.


Some examples included Facebook users Kobi and Karen Haddad, who demanded that Israel “incinerate Gaza and Hebron.”

Lior Banay demanded that Israel “destroy Hebron.”

“These Arabs,” wrote Yuval Efrat, “We should eliminate them all, just go in and spray them. Enough!”

Calls for “Death to the Arabs” were too numerous to count, but some went further. Twitter user Daniel Ronen, for instance wrote “Death to the Arabs! We must incinerate them and hang up their bodies in front of their children.”

Facebook user Lior Aminov took part in a discussion with several other people apparently organizing to go and carry out vigilante attacks on Arabs. He posted this picture of an Israeli army uniform and weapons he intended to use against his victims.

There were reports of several instances of reprisals and protests by Israelis.

In Jerusalem, dozens of people “converged on a pizzeria in the neighborhood of Ramat Shlomo to protest the employment of an Arab worker,” according to Ynet.

The worker was reportedly “rescued” by police.

US urges “restraint”

US President Barack Obama issued a statement of condolences to the families of the three youths and condemned their killings as a “senseless act of terror against innocent youth.”

Obama has never expressed sympathy or condolences for any of the more than 1,400 Palestinian children murdered by Israeli occupation forces and settlers.

But with the dire situation across the region, the US appears eager to avoid further escalation and Obama urged “all parties to refrain from steps that could further destabilize the situation.”

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, who also ignores Israel’s frequent killings of Palestinian children, also condemned the killings of the Israeli youths and hoped that the “perpetrators of this barbaric act will swiftly be brought to justice.”

Ashton also surely knows that Palestinians cannot get anything resembling “justice” in Israel’s military court system.

Following Obama, Ashton also urged “restraint of all parties concerned in order not to further aggravate the fragile situation on the ground.”

Invasion of Gaza doubtful

In Ynet, Ron Ben-Yishai, a writer close to intelligence and military sources, speculated that Israel would not carry out a large scale invasion of Gaza.

The cabinet will be required to consider a severe military blow to Gaza. This kind of operation is a necessity at the moment, not only because Hamas is responsible for the abduction, but also because it does not prevent intense rocket fire into Israel.

However, if the option of an operation in Gaza is raised, it is likely that most cabinet ministers will refuse. Why? Because Hamas in Gaza wasn’t involved in the kidnap, and an IDF invasion of the Strip would be perceived as collective punishment, which the international community would not understand and even condemn. One of the things that the State of Israel cannot lose is international legitimacy for its actions, and cannot be perceived as a country that punishes an entire population with no justifiable cause.

It remains to be seen which voices Israel’s leaders will heed: those demanding blood in Palestinian streets, or Israel’s international sponsors who don’t wish to be embarrassed and inconvenienced by another of its wild and vengeful killing sprees at a time when the rest of the region is in particularly dire shape.

Scary time to be an Arab in Israel. Reminds me of the Rodney King riots except here even the politicians are calling for blood.

 

[Linkhero1]

Scary times. I'm going to Palestine in August. I just hope crossing checkpoints isn't a pain since this happened.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Scary times. I'm going to Palestine in August. I just hope crossing checkpoints isn't a pain since this happened.

I have a friend in Ramallah. I think most of the dangerous stuff is down in the Hebron area. But they will probably make life tougher for everyone

 

[Pilgor]

Of course there's a defense force for this.

I look forward to seeing Israel's response.

These threads always attract thinly veiled antisemitism.

It's not thinly veiled.

 

[Linkhero1]

I have a friend in Ramallah. I think most of the dangerous stuff is down in the Hebron area. But they will probably make life tougher for everyone

That's usually how it is. I will be in the Ramallah area. It's just that traveling around the West Bank is pretty difficult. I think the situation will make it more difficult since they're searching for two suspects.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Anti war crimes = Anti semitism in some peoples opinion apparently.

Call for death to all arabs but no one bats an eye, it's all the palestinians fault.

Complete bullshit.

EDIT:


One palestinian child has been killed every third day by Israel for the past THIRTEEN YEARS.

Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
- See more at: http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...ys-for-the-past-13-years#sthash.iD9Hgfdt.dpuf

EDIT:

http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/photos-right-wing-activists-police-clash-in-anti-arab-protest/

PHOTOS: Right-wing activists, police clash in anti-Arab protest

Israel Police clashed with hundreds of far-right activists in downtown Jerusalem Tuesday night.

The activists arrived in the city to take part in a “revenge protest” in the wake of the murder of the three kidnapped Israelis, and chanted “death to Arabs” as they marched through downtown. Former MK Michael Ben-Ari, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Benzi Gopstein, three well-known Kahanist activists, took part in the protest.

According to Haaretz, the demonstrators attacked five Arabs across the city, and attempted to storm a McDonald’s that they suspected employed Arabs. The police made at least 50 arrests.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Actually the blockade on Gaza is what is preventing it. It restricts what would be needed for reinforced structures such as a bomb shelter. That said, I don't think anyone here agrees that Hamas is a good leader for its people.

This is a common misconception. While like many other materials, building materials are subject to checks and restrictions, plenty gets in legally and illegally. This is why shopping centres and the like are still being completed, not to mention the vast network of military institutions including deep underground bunkers - to protect Hamas and their weapons, not civilians of course. Funny how a lot of those somehow end up underneath hospitals etc...

 

[dripdripsplash]

This is a common misconception. While like many other materials, building materials are subject to checks and restrictions, plenty gets in legally and illegally. This is why shopping centres and the like are still being completed, not to mention the vast network of military institutions including deep underground bunkers - to protect Hamas and their weapons, not civilians of course. Funny how a lot of those somehow end up underneath hospitals etc...

Do you have any sourcr es on that ? Or are you just pulling this information out of your ass like usual ?

EDIT: And as Dave Inc. said your post are laughable too. "Well yeah everything is in lockdown but there is a black market!"

The official Israel has now called for collective punishment to avenge the death of the 3 teenagers. Some have even called for the death of all arabs.

11 Palestinians has been killed

18 days of bombardments.

33 bombings over Gaza just tonight.

143 wounded Palestinians.

Countless attacks on palestinians by right wing groups and soldiers alike.

These are the facts. And this is the reality of the situation.

Let me be genuine with you for a moment. I with all my heart try to prove to myself that the peace way is the way to go. That if we just tried to learn a little more about each other we would get some more understanding for each other, but each of these campaigns hardens my heart again and again. Screw peace.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

This is a common misconception. While like many other materials, building materials are subject to checks and restrictions, plenty gets in legally and illegally. This is why shopping centres and the like are still being completed, not to mention the vast network of military institutions including deep underground bunkers - to protect Hamas and their weapons, not civilians of course. Funny how a lot of those somehow end up underneath hospitals etc...

I've never really followed the conflict all that well, so let me say that, from an outsider's perspective, your statement reads like this:

"Hey, even though goods going to the population we have on lockdown are searched and seized, they still manage to get enough through the border or the black market to build supermarkets!"

Well right on, man, sure they have to bring the materials in illegally to do it but they can build supermarkets so how bad can it be?

 

[Hyperactivity]

Actually the blockade on Gaza is what is preventing it. It restricts what would be needed for reinforced structures such as a bomb shelter. That said, I don't think anyone here agrees that Hamas is a good leader for its people.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israelis-demand-blood-after-youths-bodies-found


Scary time to be an Arab in Israel. Reminds me of the Rodney King riots except here even the politicians are calling for blood.

Holy shit

 

[mercenar1e]

so the politicians are calling for airstrikes and the people are going out targeting random Palestinians.. the only "democracy" in the Middle East has a policy of kill now and ask questions later.

 

[Chumly]

Terrible for the three kids but the Israel response is even more disgusting.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I've never really followed the conflict all that well, so let me say that, from an outsider's perspective, your statement reads like this:

"Hey, even though goods going to the population we have on lockdown are searched and seized, they still manage to get enough through the border or the black market to build supermarkets!"

Well right on, man, sure they have to bring the materials in illegally to do it but they can build supermarkets so how bad can it be?

Your first sentence explains the rest of your answer. Israel lets in and provides tons of materials, especially for civilian projects. Whether Hamas could really convince Israel that they need material for civilian bomb shelters is something I'm obviously skeptical of, but the fact that they already have plenty of places which could be used for that purpose but instead use those to keep themselves and their rockets locked up shows they don't have much concern for the safety of civilians anyway. Threatening eviction to civilians who do not let their property be used as rocket launch sites also proves this point.

 

[Kinyou]

This thread is a good example to understand why the world can't do anything about the israel - palestinian situation.

The public should stop taking sides and try to prove that one side is better than the other. Just condamn these acts, whichever side they come from.

The rulers should do the same. Stop supporting one of both sides, because doing so you become co-responsible of this shit. Embargo the hell out of them till they stop.

Maybe that would be really the way to go. At least would it be a new approach.

 

[Freezie KO]

This dude...this dude.
My man Bobby bringing the good old Israel "rationale" to the discussion as usual.
No Bobby, what happened in WW2 gives no free card to Israel for what they're doing now.
And no Bobby, Israel isn't the only ethnicity to have been a target of eradication in that time, so proceed to educate yourself more on the topic before you pull another strawman from your ass in the future.
Just for the record, Bobby, did you know that the Jews were probably the most privileged among all in the beloved Roman Empire? At one point they didn't even need to bow to the caesar. They had more autonomy compared to other nations, they could practice their religion without restrictions (!!!!).
But you do you know what the Jews did, Bobby? Do you?
They would be ungrateful Bobby. They would want more. They would take a town and claim it as their own. They would want to make a little Jewish state in the middle of the Roman Empire. You can imagine how well that went. After all things done, they would get another "antisemite" guilt card up their sleeve. Now I'm not pointing all the blame on the Jews, but they're usually responsible for their own fate. Case in point: Palestine.
Oh why, why Bobby, do people cry out against the actions of Israel? Why do we still support the Palestinian people even after they throw a few stones (sometimes called rockets?) at Israel? I'll tell you why Bobby.
Come closer. I'll whisper it to you: "H-o-l-o-c-a-u-s-t."
Now now, calm down Bobby. Take a deep breath, reclaim your faculties.
Holocaust, Bobby. Say it out loud, let it sink in.
H-o-l-o-c-a-u-s-t. Israel is in the process of exterminating an entire nation and you are victim blaming them for defending themselves (rather ineffectively even)! Now that Bobby is not kosher. I want you to take a deep look inside and reevaluate your stance on the Palestinian issue.
Perhaps go read some peer-reviewed articles and see what the academia generally thinks on the issue. It will serve as a good insight.

The greedy, privileged Jews in the Roman Empire wanted their own state, so when it didn't happen they could play a "guilt card" centuries later in regards to Israel? This is worse than a YouTube comment.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

We need to understand the core issue at hand here. Hypothetically speaking, would you please answer why mexico would shoot rockets at the US 24/7?

It comes down to simply basic human rights. Some Palestinians choose the path to fight fire with fire to achieve this, while others have recently chosen a more peaceful path. The sad truth is that both paths end up with the same result.

The Palestinians don't have fire to fight fire though, and they never will, they are in a shitty situation, and they rely on Israel, and when the other side is wielding bigger guns, you don't get to negotiate as equals and make demands. The last thing they want is Israeli citizens getting fed up and pushing for less restraint. If the Palestinians were dealing with any other country in the arab region they would all be driven out, if not dead, honestly I don't see things getting better for them in the next few decades.

 

[googleplex]

These threads always attract thinly veiled antisemitism.

Of course there's a defense force for this.

I look forward to seeing Israel's response.



It's not thinly veiled.

Yes, because if you call Isreal out of their bullshit and their crimes against humanity that must mean you hate Jews.

 

[RustyNails]

A small but crucial point: it is the settlements, not the occupation itself that is illegal. But anyway, Israel did the right thing in pulling out of Gaza, and look what happened, violence increased and the lives of ordinary Palestinians there got a whole lot worse. Even if you think the violence there is based on the continuing settlement of the West Bank, surely you can understand how this precedent didn't lead to a similar pull out in the West Bank yet. Of course, this doesn't justify the settlements there and there is no way to justify the expansion of existing settlements - a really fucking idiotic move if you ask me. But asking Israel to fully pull out without a negotiated peace treaty is unreasonable.

How does anyone justify a military occupation as legal. What are the precedents and standards that make an occupation legal. Why should Israel control E Jerusalem and Palestinians shouldn't.

Gaza pullout was a facade. It was followed by Gaza blockade, which you think is not that bad because the blackmarket is allowing Hamas to build supermarkets.

 

[Terra Firma]

A question for you Israeli apologists:

Why not deal with Gaza and Hamas as a separate entity? Why not let the West Bank have autonomy and complete control? You're all complaining about rockets that come from Gaza so what's your excuse for the West Bank?

And to that someone who made a completely uneducated point about the Camp David meeting: how would you like it if I build a bunch of small paths throughout your house that won't belong to you and you cannot go to your bedroom from your living room without crossing this path and going through a checkpoint?

Here's the proposed map of the West Bank if the plans at Camp David went through:

You don't see any problem there? Settlements would have remained, the Israeli roads would have remained. The West Bank would have been a permanent and a legitimized prison, if Arafat had accepted.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

How does anyone justify a military occupation as legal. What are the precedents and standards that make an occupation legal. Why should Israel control E Jerusalem and Palestinians shouldn't.

Occupying territory obtained during a defensive war is par for the course and recognised by international bodies, claiming sovereignty and building on those lands is not. You don't know my opinion on East Jerusalem, perhaps I believe an international peacekeeping force should control it. That will be negotiated when all parties eventually hammer out a peace deal.

Gaza pullout was a facade. It was followed by Gaza blockade, which you think is not that bad because the blackmarket is allowing Hamas to build supermarkets.

The blockade did not immediately follow the occupation but followed the Hamas coup and escalation in violence. It was accompanied by an Egyptian blockade and has been relaxed numerous times when Hamas has reduced it's activities. And don't put words in my mouth, the fact that huge building projects such as luxury shopping centres, or shopping malls as Yanks call them, not supermarkets, are always cropping up is just one demonstration that while restricted construction materials are not 'locked down' by Israel and Egypt. In 2010 and 2011 alone, 2000 housing units, 42 new schools, 4 health clinics, 2 luxury hotels and a SECOND luxury shopping mall were completed. This is where Hamas should be focusing it's energies.

 

[Terra Firma]

The blockade did not immediately follow the occupation but followed the Hamas coup and escalation in violence. It was accompanied by an Egyptian blockade and has been relaxed numerous times when Hamas has reduced it's activities. And don't put words in my mouth, the fact that luxury shopping centres, or shopping malls as Yanks call them, not supermarkets, are always cropping up is just one demonstration that while restricted construction materials are not 'locked down' by Israel and Egypt. In 2010 and 2011 alone, 2000 housing units, 42 new schools, 4 health clinics, 2 luxury hotels and a SECOND luxury shopping mall were completed. This is where Hamas should be focusing it's energies.

Please put those numbers into context by telling us what the population of Gaza is.

 

[Valkerionseven]

You don't see any problem there? Settlements would have remained, the Israeli roads would have remained. The West Bank would have been a permanent and a legitimized prison, if Arafat had accepted.

Glad to see an informed person on this topic.

Ya'll really REALLY don't know whats actually going on over there if you think Israel is always "defending" or "retaliating."

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Please put those numbers into context by telling us what the population of Gaza is.

Roughly that of Manhattan but irrelevant to my point which was to answer the lie that no construction material gets through or that Hamas could not possibly protect its citizens. And there would be no limit whatsoever on the material coming in if Hamas honestly cared more about providing for its own people that it does about attacking Israel.

I laugh every time I see the term 'Israel apologists' when I and others constantly have bad words to say about Israel (I said the settlements are illegal and expansion is fucking idiotic!) yet so many posters do not have a bad word to say about Hamas. Who are the real apologists?

 

[JordanN]

A question for you Israeli apologists:

Why not deal with Gaza and Hamas as a separate entity? Why not let the West Bank have autonomy and complete control? You're all complaining about rockets that come from Gaza so what's your excuse for the West Bank?

And to that someone who made a completely uneducated point about the Camp David meeting: how would you like it if I build a bunch of small paths throughout your house that won't belong to you and you cannot go to your bedroom from your living room without crossing this path and going through a checkpoint?

Here's the proposed map of the West Bank if the plans at Camp David went through:

You don't see any problem there? Settlements would have remained, the Israeli roads would have remained. The West Bank would have been a permanent and a legitimized prison, if Arafat had accepted.

They should have accepted the Olmert peace plan. There's simply no excuse for it and everyone would be better off.