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We took three of our four cats to shelters because my son is incredibly allergic to cats. Was able to adopt one out but couldn't find anyone to take the other three. What else were we supposed to do? Have our son suffer for 10+ years of the cats lives?

They were no-kill shelters, though. Or so they said, anyway.

 

[Retro_]

But once their time is up, that's it. And yet,I still see do many macho guys walk around with their unneutered dog around, or good knows how many well intentioned cat hoarders there are. THAT'S the irresponsible party to blame for this.

The only people I think that can point fingers here are people that actually go to animal shelters to adopt pets.

If you're buying a dog from a commercial breeder, you're also contributing to this problem.

I have a soft spot for animals, but this didn't affect me at all.

I have no personal emotional opinion on the issue myself either

I just think it's an interesting phenomenon. Animals produced like livestock, but not for food.

It's like something out of a dystopia future setting in a movie, only it's our reality

 

[Omegasquash]

The only people I think that can point fingers here are people that actually go to animal shelters to adopt pets.

If you're buying a dog from a commercial breeder, you're also contributing to this problem.

I think we can replace "commercial breeder" with "pet store" in this case. People don't think about just where those adorable puppies in the window come from.

 

[Billen]

What a horrible picture, and I am talking about the mental imagery of a crying dog, feeling all alone while waiting to die. That really makes me sad. God damn humans who get animals that they wont take care of.

 

[Retro_]

I think we can replace "commercial breeder" with "pet store" in this case. People don't think about just where those adorable puppies in the window come from.

Pet stores/puppy mills are the worst no doubt

but I use "commercial breeder" because even by going to an ethical, good intentioned breeder, the opportunity cost of not going to a shelter instead still contributes to the problem.(You're supporting the production of new animals while existing animals are euthanized in shelters.)

 

[Takuan]

Yup, if I ever get a pet, I'm adopting. Way too many perfectly good animals out there to not do it.

 

[jimi_dini]

They are all just sleeping.

Lalalala

you won't ruin my day...

 

[mollipen]

pets are disposable and to be used. Sorry animals.

Disgusting.

 

[Omegasquash]

Pet stores/puppy mills are the worst no doubt

but I use "commercial breeder" because even by going to an ethical, good intentioned breeder, the opportunity cost of not going to a shelter instead still contributes to the problem.(You're supporting the production of new animals while existing animals are euthanized in shelters.)

Ah, I see what you mean. I look at it as like...if going to a breeder is an OK thing to do, then going to a shelter is the best thing to do. What you said makes sense though, and I'm going to put that forth in my submission when it's time to get a few dogs. My wife is pretty set on going to a breeder, and I'm pushing to get a few from shelters (preferably pups, but once we get in there I don't think that's going to matter).

 

[joelseph]

We took three of our four cats to shelters because my son is incredibly allergic to cats. Was able to adopt one out but couldn't find anyone to take the other three. What else were we supposed to do? Have our son suffer for 10+ years of the cats lives?

They were no-kill shelters, though. Or so they said, anyway.

Few options:

Research a rescue group that will take the animal until they can find a new home.
Ask friends and family to help.
Medicate your son.

 

[Dead Man]

Damn. More funding needs to be allocated to desexing programmes, and to shelters in general. No kill shelters should be uniform, but without the resources this is seen as necessary.

So, what's the solution then? Let the cat go out on the street?

Oh! I know, prejudge those who took their cat to the shelter!

"If you couldn't take care of it then you're a HORRIBLE PERSON!"

That leaves little room for them to have a good reason to take the cat to a shelter AND allows me to feel morally superior to those who've had things happen in their lives unexpectedly.

Whew, thank god I solved that moral crisis. *superior feeling*

Well something certainly seems to have struck a nerve.

 

[Opiate]

So? Just keep them in shelters indefinitely or sterilize then and then release them. I mean Jesus fuck, countries that are dirty poor compared to USA don't have shelters like those. American shelters aren't shelters, just death farms.

Unfortunately, this just isn't a reasonable option.

Biologists consider cats an invasive species in the US, and they are responsible for the deaths of billions of birds and rodentia every year (that is not a typo: billions). This is not something to simply hand wave away casually -- some bird species have been brought to the brink of extinction purely because of feline populations.

This is without considering the potential to transmit disease (fleas can carry many diseases including the famous bubonic plague, rabies are a factor, etc.) or attack humans (more a problem for dogs specifically, of course).

In comparison to killing a pig so we can eat bacon, killing a cat so it won't go on to hunt birds to extinction or transmit diseases to our pets or our children is a perfectly reasonable thing. It would be nice if all animals could live in harmony and disease didn't exist, but unfortunately that just isn't the case. Someone has to lose.

 

[marrec]

Well something certainly seems to have struck a nerve.

The level of sensationalism associated with an anonymous Craigslist post and unsourced picture.

Couple that with the fact that I had to leave a dog with a (no-kill) shelter in the past... got my hackles raised.

 

[Arkos]

My new 7 year old kitty (Ms Meryl) that had been at the pound for 2 months (somehow) says hey. Do what you can, I guess

 

[ElectricBlue187]

So? Just keep them in shelters indefinitely or sterilize then and then release them. I mean Jesus fuck, countries that are dirty poor compared to USA don't have shelters like those. American shelters aren't shelters, just death farms.

That's not very realistic...we can't have roving bands of wild Pitbulls running around nor can a shelter take care of them forever

 

[Arkos]

That's not very realistic...we can't have roving bands of wild Pitbulls running around nor can a shelter take care of them forever

 

[Dead Man]

The level of sensationalism associated with an anonymous Craigslist post and unsourced picture.

Couple that with the fact that I had to leave a dog with a (no-kill) shelter in the past... got my hackles raised.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Einbroch]

Adopting is great, but strangely enough, it's not always an option. My girlfriend wanted a Morkie. She's wanted one since she was a kid. We looked at adopting. Two places turned us down. Why? Because she had no experience raising a dog (even though I've raised three dogs from pups to adults), she would be at work 9 hours a day (even though I said I would visit everyday around noon to let the dog out, drink, eat, and walk), and that the yard wasn't big enough, even though she's a Morkie.

So we went with a breeder, and have a healthy, active, happy dog.

Adoption is great, but if you want a "desirable" breed they are incredibly picky on who gets what.

 

[AlimNassor]

Theres really no other option. Dump them in the wild where they become feral and diseased or place them in a shelter where at least they'll have a quick painless death. I've seen how feral cats live-it's pretty bad. They live short lives, and are often very diseased, and thats if they aren't killed by dogs or other animals.

 

[kevo_huevo]

There was a documentary on HBO called 'One Nation Under Dog' that had a segment which basically shows the euthanasia process described in the OP:
dogs and puppies get carried and loaded into a freezer which is then shut
gas is pumped
you can hear the dogs barking, whining, crying, whimpering, and then silence
garbage truck comes by and dumps all of the dead dogs and leaves

Here's the segment if you're curious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e9kAaXzLrQ

If you have to surrender your pet, at least give it up to a rescue organization that will foster it until they can find it a new home.

Both of our dogs are from rescue orgs: our first was an owner relinquishment, and our second and current pup was found as a stray, and rescued from a shelter the day before he was supposed to be euthanized.

 

[joelseph]

Adopting is great, but strangely enough, it's not always an option. My girlfriend wanted a Morkie. She's wanted one since she was a kid. We looked at adopting. Two places turned us down. Why? Because she had no experience raising a dog (even though I've raised three dogs from pups to adults), she would be at work 9 hours a day (even though I said I would visit everyday around noon to let the dog out, drink, eat, and walk), and that the yard wasn't big enough, even though she's a Morkie.

So we went with a breeder, and have a healthy, active, happy dog.

Adoption is great, but if you want a "desirable" breed they are incredibly picky on who gets what.

Playing devil's advocate, young adults that are still renting and haven't settled down should not be owning dogs. I speak from experience, I made the mistake and my life is much harder raising a dog than I would have ever imagined. Dogs are best in established homes with no young kids.

 

[Jado]

Commercial breeders share the majority blame for fully knowing what they're doing is wrong, followed to a lesser degree by the ignorant masses that fall in love with cute animals at pet store windows. Unfortunately, my mom and sister are in that group.

My sister became infatuated with owning a pitbull and babysat one for several weeks with the intent to eventually own it. She was almost never home to walk him, clean him, or train him properly; pretty soon, he was nipping at us and peeing and shitting all over the place in a penned area. This was the start of a disaster and I forced her to give him back.

Several years later, my mom bought a small dog (Japanese Chin) without consulting any of us and without any real knowledge of caring for an animal. I didn't want the thing initially, but grew attached and learned about what it can/can't eat, walking it, etc. My mom threatened so many times to get rid of it because his coat blows out a couple of times per year. Initially, I said "fine" out of frustration, but over time I said "no, he's mine now." I moved out from home and came back a month later to take him with me, knowing my mom wasn't going to pay for vet visits, walk him to the park, etc. He just turned eight last month and my GF and I love him so much.

Before I moved out, my sister again got another pitbull pup. She started nipping after our Chin, and again I noticed the same pattern of ignorance and lack of training, although it was no longer living in filth. I forced her to get rid of it, knowing fully well we would come home one day and find our smaller dog dead or injured. Large/powerful dog breeds should never be owned by irresponsible, inexperienced or absentee novices.

Again, sometime before moving out, my sister got an easier dog breed: a common Shih Tzu. Not its fault, but was it was an annoying little thing (my Chin hated it), and always looked/smelled dirty. Eventually she grew bored of it and gave it to her fiancee's parent to care for. He's still around, but it's a classic example of a decent dog that nearly ended up at a kill shelter because of a bad owner.

So what's the solution for a person who isn't sure if they have what it takes to fully commit to caring for an animal? Temp foster an animal to see if it's for you. Adopt an older pet that's already trained and low energy/easier to handle. Get a low maintenance caged pet (fish, hamster, lizard, etc).

 

[Somnid]

Should be illegal to have a un-spayed/neutered animal without a breeding license. The problem isn't even just stupid people not doing it or feeling bad for the animal and not doing it. I've literally met people who get an expensive breed and then the lightbulb goes off that if they paid $xxxx for their dog then they could make $xxxxx by selling the puppies! Brilliant.

 

[TheExodu5]

Here's the segment if you're curious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e9kAaXzLrQ

Jesus...that was hard to watch.

 

[Wilsongt]

Will be giving my pet a big hug when he comes out tomorrow from a fun trip in the mountains with a friend of mine.

 

[Superflat]

Owners ought to be more informed about where they drop off their pets if they have no other choice. Shelters that do this kind of thing shouldn't be supported.

There's no solution I can really see for this, lest laws start existing prohibiting what is now typical behavior regarding buying/selling/getting rid of pets.

 

[joelseph]

Wrong thread!

 

[Marjorine]

No-kill shelters, yo.

My sister handles PR and fund raising for a giant no-kill shelter. They take most animals, and they don't kill, but they won't take in animals that appear to have zero chance of getting adopted, so if you have a "bad" breed, a dog that shows any sort of aggression or they happen to be full on cats? They can't take them. They have so many pit pulls at the moment that they don't know what to do with them, because nobody wants them no matter how sweet they are.

It's heart breaking. They also provide support for people down on their luck with their pets and offer really cheap neutering and will give away free food to whoever needs it for their pet. Sometimes, when they can't take the animal for whatever reason, the owner just returns in the night and ties the animal up out front. This happens a lot, actually, and nine times out of ten they end up turning that animal over to the humane society because they have to use their limited resources for the animals they have, and they end up in one of the barrels we saw above.

I know, they're just animals, but it seems like you make a commitment when you adopt one, and a pet shelter isn't Gamestop where you trade in what you don't want. I get hard times hit everybody, and that is BIG portion of people who turn animals in, but there is always a run of surrenders at the shelters 8 or so months after Xmas when the cute puppy the family bought becomes an actual dog. It's irresponsible.

 

[Takuan]

Commercial breeders share the majority blame for fully knowing what they're doing is wrong, followed to a lesser degree by the ignorant masses that fall in love with cute animals at pet store windows. Unfortunately, my mom and sister are in that group.

My sister became infatuated with owning a pitbull and babysat one for several weeks with the intent to eventually own it. She was almost never home to walk him, clean him, or train him properly; pretty soon, he was nipping at us and peeing and shitting all over the place in a penned area. This was the start of a disaster and I forced her to give him back.

Several years later, my mom bought a small dog (Japanese Chin) without consulting any of us and without any real knowledge of caring for an animal. I didn't want the thing initially, but grew attached and learned about what it can/can't eat, walking it, etc. My mom threatened so many times to get rid of it because his coat blows out a couple of times per year. Initially, I said "fine" out of frustration, but over time I said "no, he's mine now." I moved out from home and came back a month later to take him with me, knowing my mom wasn't going to pay for vet visits, walk him to the park, etc. He just turned eight last month and my GF and I love him so much.

Before I moved out, my sister again got another pitbull pup. She started nipping after our Chin, and again I noticed the same pattern of ignorance and lack of training, although it was no longer living in filth. I forced her to get rid of it, knowing fully well we would come home one day and find our smaller dog dead or injured. Large/powerful dog breeds should never be owned by irresponsible, inexperienced or absentee novices.

Again, sometime before moving out, my sister got an easier dog breed: a common Shih Tzu. Not its fault, but was it was an annoying little thing (my Chin hated it), and always looked/smelled dirty. Eventually she grew bored of it and gave it to her fiancee's parent to care for. He's still around, but it's a classic example of a decent dog that nearly ended up at a kill shelter because of a bad owner.

So what's the solution for a person who isn't sure if they have what it takes to fully commit to caring for an animal? Temp foster an animal to see if it's for you. Adopt an older pet that's already trained and low energy/easier to handle. Get a low maintenance caged pet (fish, hamster, lizard, etc).

Unfortunately, this advice will fall on deaf ears. Too many people only want a pet for as long as it is cute/convenient and I don't know how you can police proper ownership. All this information is already out there for those who choose to seek it. Nothing beyond a children's protective services equivalent for animals could enforce standards of ownership, which isn't viable.

 

[animus82]

I dropped a problem pet off at the shelter recently and now I feel horrible

What did you think was going to happen to your pet if someone didn't adopt them...?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

They have a better chance there than they do with a PETA shelter.

 

[kevo_huevo]

Jesus...that was hard to watch.

sigh. i know. i get so conflicted thinking about my pup that could have very well met the same fate.

Owners ought to be more informed about where they drop off their pets if they have no other choice. Shelters that do this kind of thing shouldn't be supported.

There's no solution I can really see for this, lest laws start existing prohibiting what is now typical behavior regarding buying/selling/getting rid of pets.

it usually starts with community support. shelters and rescue organizations absolutely need donations of goods/services/money in order to survive. we volunteered every week at the local shelter before getting our second dog, but we still donate every once in a while. luckily our shelter receives a lot of funding from the city and is *no kill.

*dogs/cats/rabbits still get euthanized if their quality of living is such that it lives in pain/agony daily, or they fail multiple temperament assessments.

 

[daycru]

Owners ought to be more informed about where they drop off their pets if they have no other choice. Shelters that do this kind of thing shouldn't be supported.

There are far more abandoned animals than there is room/infrastructure to take care of them. The blame should not go to the shelters.

 

[V_Arnold]

Unfortunately, this just isn't a reasonable option.

Biologists consider cats an invasive species in the US, and they are responsible for the deaths of billions of birds and rodentia every year (that is not a typo: billions). This is not something to simply hand wave away casually -- some bird species have been brought to the brink of extinction purely because of feline populations.

This is without considering the potential to transmit disease (fleas can carry many diseases including the famous bubonic plague, rabies are a factor, etc.) or attack humans (more a problem for dogs specifically, of course).

In comparison to killing a pig so we can eat bacon, killing a cat so it won't go on to hunt birds to extinction or transmit diseases to our pets or our children is a perfectly reasonable thing. It would be nice if all animals could live in harmony and disease didn't exist, but unfortunately that just isn't the case. Someone has to lose.

Or the US population can invest money in neutering (is that right work? So they become infertile) cats and dogs (strays, most importantly), which will solve overpopulation without actually having to face a recurring slaughter "just because". There are many types of issues where the shortsighted human decisons do not solve problems, just push them back, killing animals in animal shelters are amongst them. Short term "solutions", or let us call it what they are: short term massacres over and over again.

There are many ways to control population of cats in a country - this is the worst one of them. And not particularly effective at it.

 

[Speedy Blue Dude]

That just broke my heart. :/

Just want to vent things, fuck people who buy animals for their little kids, or for themselves only to send them to a death sentence because they actually take effort to take care of. One of my sisters is like this.

Before she had her kids, she got a cat because "Oh I want a cat! They're so cute and nice!" a year later, so sent her to the shelter because "I don't want to take care of her anymore." Before this, she got a dog. A dog she let get overweight and never trained, that she got because "He's so cute and small!" a year later she tried to send him to the pound because she didn't want to take care of him. This time however, I basically took the dog in and made him mine, because I wasn't going to let him die because of her incompetence. He's part of our family.

Then she had a kid, and she constantly buys fishes for her kids, who she never takes care of, and constantly die. She's basically murdered like 15 gold fish before she stopped. 15 gold fish died just to keep her son entertained. Most recently, she had my parents bring a few months old Chihuahua for her child (3 years old) This was 5 months ago. She already wants to get rid of him (and once again, I took him in as mine. Fuck that. Having a new puppy die because you don't want to take care of him)

I hate people like this. So much. :/

 

[bill0527]

So whats the solution?

I feel bad for the person who has to work in this every day, but regardless, there ARE circumstances where its unavoidable and you have to take the animal to the shelter.

Divorce happens...people move from houses into apartments. Not all apartments allow pets, and the ones that do, typically don't allow large breed dogs like German Shepherds, or Rottweilers.

Owners die and no one can take the pet thats left behind. I adopted a beagle from a shelter whose owner died and no one in the surviving family could take the dog.

Some animals can develop problems that can't be fixed through medicine or other care and they can no longer be compatible with humans. Aggression, incontinence, destructive behavior. I had a cat for 7 years that one day stopped using the litter box and started pissing all over the house. Despite almost a thousand dollars in vet bills, and a year of trying different solutions, the cat would not stop pissing all over the house. And after a year of it, and not being able to live another day walking into my home right into the stench of cat piss, I had to get rid of the cat. I couldn't pawn this problem off on someone else, so I had to take it to a shelter. Broke my heart but had to be done. Also had to replace $3000 worth of carpet padding and subfloor just to eliminate the smell.

I really do feel bad for people that have to deal with this day in and day out, but not everyone that has to surrender a pet does so because they are simply tired of it.

 

[Jado]

Unfortunately, this advice will fall on deaf ears. Too many people only want a pet for as long as it is cute/convenient and I don't know how you can police proper ownership. All this information is already out there for those who choose to seek it. Nothing beyond a children's protective services equivalent for animals could enforce standards of ownership, which isn't viable.

You're right that the information is out there, but it's not getting to the people who need it most; I honestly believe a lot of novice pet owners don't understand the amount of time/effort that goes into caring for a pet (especially a dog). Assuming it's viable for a local/state gov't and the benefits outweigh the costs, maybe the following would help: public service announcements on local TV/news, informational advertising in local papers, public spaces and mass transport, pamphlets distributed in the mail, etc.

 

[Jimothy]

Every time I'm out and see a dog that's unneutered I feel like walking up to the owner and smacking them.

 

[RM8]

It's so ridiculously irresponsible to buy a pet without considering the effort it takes to properly take care of it. This gets to me more than it should, really.

 

[Cetra]

I won't be adopting. Why? Cause I'd be turned down already. I have no pet owner experience. Also, I don't have a Vet for references. I also am not cool with someone having to come to my house and inspect it to make sure it fits their ideals of what a home should be for a dog. It's also none of their business what my income level is or how much I work.

If all you bleeding hearts want animals in shelters to get homes then allow people to adopt them without having to all NSA on them. Otherwise, live with the shithole that is most animal shelters.

I'll just go get a fucking puppy, thanks.

 

[Amalthea]

The shelters where I live (Europe) are actually picky with who they give their animals to. And the have no problem finding people for their pets. Their fee for adopting animals is about 290 bucks too. Even for an old sick stray cat. Let that sink in.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

That just broke my heart. :/

Just want to vent things, fuck people who buy animals for their little kids, or for themselves only to send them to a death sentence because they actually take effort to take care of. One of my sisters is like this.

Before she had her kids, she got a cat because "Oh I want a cat! They're so cute and nice!" a year later, so sent her to the shelter because "I don't want to take care of her anymore." Before this, she got a dog. A dog she let get overweight and never trained, that she got because "He's so cute and small!" a year later she tried to send him to the pound because she didn't want to take care of him. This time however, I basically took the dog in and made him mine, because I wasn't going to let him die because of her incompetence. He's part of our family.

Then she had a kid, and she constantly buys fishes for her kids, who she never takes care of, and constantly die. She's basically murdered like 15 gold fish before she stopped. 15 gold fish died just to keep her son entertained. Most recently, she had my parents bring a few months old Chihuahua for her child (3 years old) This was 5 months ago. She already wants to get rid of him (and once again, I took him in as mine. Fuck that. Having a new puppy die because you don't want to take care of him)

I hate people like this. So much. :/

Jesus Christ what is with all the stories of shit family members in this thread.

 

[wenis]

I don't get it how american shelters can work like this. I mean..wtf? What's the point of their existence is they euthanize the animals.

"BUUUUT MOOOOM! I swear! I will take care of it!"

 

[Downhome]

I can't wrap my head around someone being able to give up a pet to a shelter who had been, well, a PET for any amount of time. That is cold hearted to me, completely loveless. It's not as bad, but it borders in my mind on someone just giving away a child or something. It breaks my heart, especially when I think what must be going through that animal's mind. Thinking of doing it to our cat Clancy just makes me sick to my stomach. You shouldn't be able to legally get a pet if you have any history of doing that.

I once applied to a local animal shelter job when I needed work years ago. The interview went fine, they were going to hire me. I really, really needed work at the time. Then they added on at the very end that everyone that works there MUST be trained to put the animals down, and everyone MUST rotate in and out of taking part in that aspect of the job, including the actual putting down of the animal. I was appalled.

I said nope and walked right out.

 

[NullPointer]

Well, my heart completely sank.

People who aren't willing to be guardians of their pets, and to treat them as little furry persons, shouldn't be allowed that responsibility.

And man do we need to have more empathy towards the non-humans we share this world with. Fucking hell.

 

[BigDug13]

Sadly.... this. I blaime the people that take a pet only to realize after a few weeks/months that they can't handle it and then ditch the poor thing to a shelter. Think twice about what you do people...

That's all this article was attempting to do. You've got grown ass people making the decision to get a pet just like a child who wants to have a pet. They aren't thinking through the responsibility needed and the adult size of the pet in question.

Making hasty decisions that you can't follow through on is one thing, but if it involves a pet's life and you can't follow through on it, it's a death sentence for the pet to take them to the shelter because of your inability to follow through on your commitment.

 

[megarockexe]

But that will never happen to me! My dog isn't neutered and he's 100% sexually ignorant so I won't be contributing to the overpopulation problem. Right?

 

[RM8]

This is just so unbelievable to me

My dog's death earlier this year (15.5 years old) absolutely demolished me. To see people treating animals as disposable fluffy toys saddens me as much as it infuriates me. Freaking irresponsible people.

 

[Durask]

Just releasing cats would decimate bird populations.

Yup.

Feral cats and dogs mess up the local ecosystem bad enough alreay.

 

[davepoobond]

So whats the solution?

I feel bad for the person who has to work in this every day, but regardless, there ARE circumstances where its unavoidable and you have to take the animal to the shelter.

Divorce happens...people move from houses into apartments. Not all apartments allow pets, and the ones that do, typically don't allow large breed dogs like German Shepherds, or Rottweilers.

Owners die and no one can take the pet thats left behind. I adopted a beagle from a shelter whose owner died and no one in the surviving family could take the dog.

Some animals can develop problems that can't be fixed through medicine or other care and they can no longer be compatible with humans. Aggression, incontinence, destructive behavior. I had a cat for 7 years that one day stopped using the litter box and started pissing all over the house. Despite almost a thousand dollars in vet bills, and a year of trying different solutions, the cat would not stop pissing all over the house. And after a year of it, and not being able to live another day walking into my home right into the stench of cat piss, I had to get rid of the cat. I couldn't pawn this problem off on someone else, so I had to take it to a shelter. Broke my heart but had to be done. Also had to replace $3000 worth of carpet padding and subfloor just to eliminate the smell.

I really do feel bad for people that have to deal with this day in and day out, but not everyone that has to surrender a pet does so because they are simply tired of it.

I think in situation like yours it is justifiable. Can't say you didn't try to help the cat and it just became too old or had a mental issue that prevented it from being a pet and becoming a pest.