Support NeoGAF

[XboxGamers]

Damn!

link

One of the most well-loved series back in the 16-bit days of Genesis was Sega’s ToeJam & Earl. The series, which developed a cult following years after it seemingly faded into the past, was given a breath of life on the Xbox with ToeJam & Earl Mission To Earth but today; following the alien duos funky mission to Earth, it seems the series is no more.

In a letter by ToeJam & Earl Productions co-founder, Greg Johnson, it was revealed that both plans of a sequel, as well as TJ&E Productions, are both dead. According to the email letter sent over to us earlier today by James Paterson of ManchesterOnline, there was going to be ports of the Xbox ToeJam & Earl game, as well as sequels, but poor sales of the title resulted in Sega pulling the plug on future game development.

He goes on to note that another game could conceivably be done, given that TJ&E Productions still holds the IP to the series; if that is someone was found that would fund it, but that the team that did TJ&E 3 was disband. To be exact, the following was said.

"Hi James. Sorry to say there are no further plans for TJ&E games. Our plan was to go directly on to other ports of the game after the Xbox version, and then on to sequels, but sales on the Xbox version were not so great and Sega pulled the plug on all further TJ&E development. We do have the rights to the IP and could conceivably do more in the future if we found someone interested in funding the development, but the team that built TJ&E3 was forced to disband. A studio in Hollywood did option the rights for movies and TV and there remains a small possibility that there could be a TJ&E movie. If that happens then I'd say chances of more games are pretty good. In any event it won't be soon. They don't even have a script yet."

So what happened to everyone? Well according to an extension to the email, other co-founder, Mark Voosanger, signed on to another developer called Leap Frog as its VP of internal development. While Greg Johnson is currently an independent trying to launch a project; and is currently working for Konami on some concept work. Once again, special thanks to James Paterson of ManchesterOnline for the use of this letter.

 

[binary]

too bad...i would have bought toejam and earl 3 if it had online multiplayer like the dreamcast version was supposed to have, but it didn't

 

[Alex]

TJ&E3, much like the original, was repetitive as hell and not without a series of flaws, but damn if I didn't have some great fun with it on co-op, also like the original!

"Beats me how you could find some pants that were too big"

 

[Culex]

Blame MS and it's fans. It's their fault.

 

[XboxGamers]

Blame MS and it's fans. It's their fault.

No, Blame the ones didn't surport Xbox yet.

 

[Culex]

No, Blame the ones didn't surport Xbox yet.

but sales on the Xbox version were not so great

 

[Lazy8s]

ToeJam & Earl III had a polished collection of missions that provided a lot of fun with power-ups and multiplayer. At least the developers will be contributing to other teams around the industry.

 

[Saturnman]

Blame the game. Mission To Earth wasn't very good, IMHO.

 

[jarrod]

If only Sega hadn't made that 11 game exclusive/royalty deal with Microsoft... no doubt realeases like JSRF, Panzer Orta, TJ&E3, HotD3 and Crazy Taxi 3 would've fared better on PS2 or GameCube.

 

[explodet]

So what were these guys doing during the PS1/N64/Saturn days?

Just curious.

 

[Saint Cornelius]

Kinda sad, but TJ&E III was kinda booty, and the humor was atrocious for the most part

 

[Lazy8s]

jarrod:

If only Sega hadn't made that 11 game exclusive/royalty deal with Microsoft... no doubt realeases like JSRF, Panzer Orta, TJ&E3, HotD3 and Crazy Taxi 3 would've fared better on PS2 or GameCube.

No; the Xbox publishing deal was so favorable that it was a slam dunk from a financial standpoint for SEGA and in accordance with their initiative to create a fanbase on Xbox. Considering the company's overall sales on the other platforms, mild gains in unit totals for those titles wouldn't have worked out as nicely without some kind of publishing package from Sony/Nintendo (which would have required exclusivity) to go along with it.

The results from those games were certainly disappointing in creating a Dreamcast-like audience on the Xbox - no doubt about it. From an unqualified context, future games like those should definitely be considered strongly for GC and PS2, but SEGA would jump at any publishing deal so generous if one were to be again offered. MS just didn't see the return they were hoping for, so they haven't been in a hurry to try another SEGA experiment of that scale.

 

[ourumov]

This is very sad...I know a guy that will try to kill himself when he reads this...

I loved Toejam & Earl 2. It was one of the funn(k)iest games ever.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Blame MS and it's fans. It's their fault.

The game sucked. Good riddance.

 

[jarrod]

jarrod:

No; the Xbox publishing deal was so favorable that it was a slam dunk from a financial standpoint for SEGA and in accordance with their initiative to create a fanbase on Xbox. Considering the company's overall sales on the other platforms, mild gains in unit totals for those titles wouldn't have worked out as nicely without some kind of publishing package from Sony/Nintendo (which would have required exclusivity) to go along with it.

The results from those games were certainly disappointing in creating a Dreamcast-like audience on the Xbox - no doubt about it. From an unqualified context, future games like those should definitely be considered strongly for GC and PS2, but SEGA would jump at any publishing deal so generous if one were to be again offered. MS just didn't see the return they were hoping for, so they haven't been in a hurry to try another SEGA experiment of that scale.

I'd argue that it was Sega who didn't see the expected return they hoped for... despite funding 11 exlcuisve projects from their own pocket, they failed to make any sort of significant dent in the XBox market or build any notable fanbase, and reduced royalty fees on pathetically performing software is all they have to show for it. Well, that and a one time bundle deal MS threw together last second to try and save the damaged partnership.

Smilebit in particular was hurt, the utter failure of their XBox line was pretty clearly what led to their nonsports divisions being shut down and remaining staff moved to Toshiro Nagoshi's highly profitable Amusement Vision, not to mention it's been directly resposible for TJ&E Productions being shut down. The high hopes Sega had for Chihiro bringing simple XBox consumer releases has been dashed by a market so unwelcoming it's evidently not even worth the effort to port code directly. Favorable XBox support (outside Sega Sports/ESPN) has been Sega's most notable and costly misfire since moving into 3rd party publishing.

I also take issue with the notion that Crazy Taxi 3 or Panzer Orta only would've seen "mild" gains from a move to PS2 or GameCube... more likely their sales would've tripled at the least. There's no doubt in my mind that every one of Sega's XBox exclusives (outside maybe GunValkyrie) would've seen a significant sales increase on another platform (be it DC, GC or PS2 depending on the title). The only company who emerged from this relatively unscathed seems to be Microsoft, who has somehow managed to not spend a cent on funding Sega's games (unlike pretty much every other Japanese firm they've dealt with)...

 

[cybamerc]

Xbox must be cursed or something.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"I also take issue with the notion that Crazy Taxi 3 or Panzer Orta only would've seen "mild" gains from a move to PS2 or GameCube... more likely their sales would've tripled at the least."


For sure in the case of Crazy Taxi 3.... the PS2 and Gamecube ports of Crazy taxi 1 sold well over three times Crazy Taxi 3 on Xbox.

 

[Defensor]

Toejam & Earl 1 on the genesis is still the best one.

 

[Rhage]

Well, I'll be damned. I didn't realize anyone existed who thought TJ&E 3 was any good.

 

[Buffy4ever]

I'd argue that it was Sega who didn't see the expected return they hoped for... despite funding 11 exlcuisve projects from their own pocket, they failed to make any sort of significant dent in the XBox market or build any notable fanbase, and reduced royalty fees on pathetically performing software is all they have to show for it. Well, that and a one time bundle deal MS threw together last second to try and save the damaged partnership.

Smilebit in particular was hurt, the utter failure of their XBox line was pretty clearly what led to their nonsports divisions being shut down and remaining staff moved to Toshiro Nagoshi's highly profitable Amusement Vision, not to mention it's been directly resposible for TJ&E Productions being shut down. The high hopes Sega had for Chihiro bringing simple XBox consumer releases has been dashed by a market so unwelcoming it's evidently not even worth the effort to port code directly. Favorable XBox support (outside Sega Sports/ESPN) has been Sega's most notable and costly misfire since moving into 3rd party publishing.

I also take issue with the notion that Crazy Taxi 3 or Panzer Orta only would've seen "mild" gains from a move to PS2 or GameCube... more likely their sales would've tripled at the least. There's no doubt in my mind that every one of Sega's XBox exclusives (outside maybe GunValkyrie) would've seen a significant sales increase on another platform (be it DC, GC or PS2 depending on the title). The only company who emerged from this relatively unscathed seems to be Microsoft, who has somehow managed to not spend a cent on funding Sega's games (unlike pretty much every other Japanese firm they've dealt with)...

Hearing what happened to Toe Jam, and Earl Productions is sad. unlike others I loved the game, Toe jam and Earl 3: mission to Earth, and thought it was worth the $ 20 i payed for it.
I do agree Panzer Dragoon, Crazy Taxi 3, and House of the Dead 3 would have done well on Ps2. Panzeer Dragoon, and crazy taxi would have done well on Gamecube, but i doubt some of the other 11 games would have. I think Toe Jam and Earl would have Bombed on PS2, too much compatention, and even if it had been on the gamecube the game's Popularity would be in doubt. Also Jet Set radio Future would have done bad too, it didn
t do well on the Dreamcast, and People seem to say the original is better, I disagree, but it could have been overshadowed too unless it was a Gamecube launch title or came out for GameCube when Nintendo didn't publish anything. Why exclude GunValkyrie, if you say some games would sell better , why not add it to the list? I am just trying to Understand why you seem to rant about how Sega have supported each system after the Dreamcast.

People mention the Sega X-box flops, but thier have been a few flops on Ps2 and gamecube too ( nightshade, virtual on, beach spikers ect...) I have a feeling that Astro Boy and Amazing Island well bomb too. I don't think Toe Jam and Earl has the name brand in this day and age to sell like it did in the 16 bit days. Heck only the Sonic titles are the really great saller for Sega these days. Thier are others Like Shinobi and Monkey ball that have done allright in thier sales, but they are not million sellers or anything. I will say this, I wish Sega would port some of the X-box games over to other consoles just to see how they would have do, I don't see why Sega doesn't take a chance.

People say Sega is not gaining anything from the X-box games, then I ask this, "why do they continue to publish them"..they have atleast 3 games of thier own, and not counting Otogi2 and thier sport games.

As for the issue of Sega Porting the Chihiro board games, I have this to say, where are the Triforce board games for GameCube? It seems both board got one or two ports. F-Zero x for Gamecube and House of the Dead 3 and Outrun 2 for the X-box.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"Well, I'll be damned. I didn't realize anyone existed who thought TJ&E 3 was any good."

Actually, Play magazine really liked it too, it got 4.5/5. I think it's a silly, mindless fun kinda game. God, I agree with Play, it's the apocalypse!

"You're just a girly man who doesn't like to download off Xbox Live!"

 

[Hotsuma]

People say Sega is not gaining anything from the X-box games, then I ask this, "why do they continue to publish them"..they have atleast 3 games of thier own, and not counting Otogi2 and thier sport games.

Amen! The only people who know what the financial deal between Sega and MS is all about is Sega and MS. The "Sega is stupid for supporting Xbox" talk is so damned old now. No matter what Sega does, most of the same people will be bitching about the company.

TJ&E3's ghetto humor was funny, but including online co-op would have made the game more enjoayble. Sega should have let TJ&E productions keep in the KKK head as the last boss.

 

[NWO]

No, Blame the ones didn't surport Xbox yet.

This should be the new slogan for the Xbox.

 

[Lazy8s]

jarrod:

I'd argue that it was Sega who didn't see the expected return they hoped for...

Neither party did, as was pointed out.

and reduced royalty fees on pathetically performing software is all they have to show for it. Well, that and a one time bundle deal MS threw together last second to try and save the damaged partnership.

It amounted to millions of saved dollars between licensing fees, advertising support, and royalty payments. SEGA's overall sales on PS2 and GC during that time were only a little less poor.

Smilebit in particular was hurt, the utter failure of their XBox line was pretty clearly what led to their nonsports divisions being shut down and remaining staff moved to Toshiro Nagoshi's highly profitable Amusement Vision,

This was the result of many factors related to an internal restructuring. One of the main being that SEGA was planning to create an exclusive Japanese sports developer. Smilebit had been wisely managed and had built a larger brand name than Amusement Vision for sports, so the popular Smilebit brand was retained for that. On the other hand, consolidation was a large focus of the shake-up, and Amusement Vision had proven themselves a worthy team to keep with their success on the Monkey Ball franchise and its budgeting. So, they were given the other side of the Smilebit operation.

not to mention it's been directly resposible for TJ&E Productions being shut down.

The Xbox deal gave TJ&E3 a MS funded, multi-million dollar US television advertising campaign it wouldn't have otherwise been given. That would be the option a company would go for every time.

The high hopes Sega had for Chihiro bringing simple XBox consumer releases has been dashed by a market so unwelcoming it's evidently not even worth the effort to port code directly.

Arcade titles are conceived first and foremost for the arcade where Chihiro provides a good price/performance solution, so Chihiro has still been the preference for showcase arcade title development (that'll be changing now with the new PowerVR board, though.) The fact that SEGA has to be enticed by MS to bring Chihiro titles to the Xbox market is acknowledgement of their poor acceptance there - no argument.

I also take issue with the notion that Crazy Taxi 3 or Panzer Orta only would've seen "mild" gains from a move to PS2 or GameCube...

Their lower-profile franchises weren't performing well on the other platforms either, so Panzer wouldn't likely have sold much more and wouldn't have had the MS funded, multi million dollar US TV ad campaign. The first sequel to Crazy Taxi showed some declining popularity (even accounting for its late release on DC), but the success of Acclaim's port of the first shows that Crazy Taxi 3 could've very probably done triply well on PS2 or GC than its poor results on Xbox. On the other hand, The House of the Dead 3 has sold very respectably on MS's console through steady sales and a good sustaining of its pricepoint. Overall, there hasn't been a significant advantage demonstrated in SEGA's PS2 or GC sales to account for passing on such an assured publishing deal.

There's no doubt in my mind that every one of Sega's XBox exclusives (outside maybe GunValkyrie)

GUNVALKYRIE was not one of the SEGA Xclusives. Smilebit picked Xbox because they were most familiar with its development architecture after their recent PC work and could maximize development expense savings that way. Interestingly, it sold better than GunGrave, a PS2 effort with comparability in release date and mixed critical reception and with the added benefit of an anime license (SEGA's payment for which is the only reason GunGrave is allowed a sequel.)

The only company who emerged from this relatively unscathed seems to be Microsoft, who has somehow managed to not spend a cent on funding Sega's games

Hardly: Xbox division management was shaken up for not seeing the return from the large spending on third-party deals like this. Besides, the company which funds a game's development has to manage the project, so developers and their parent publishers usually don't go with outside funding in order to avoid the extra negotiation and logistics necessary under this kind of arrangement. Publishing, advertising, and incentive deals like SEGA had are far more preferred and prevalent.

edit: The main failing of SEGA's consumer division since going third party has been revealed in their financial disclosures to be the missed expectations on the SEGA Sports 2K line.

 

[jarrod]

It amounted to millions of saved dollars between licensing fees, advertising support, and royalty payments. SEGA's overall sales on PS2 and GC during that time were only a little less poor.

Saved dollars don't count for much considering the miniscule returns Sega made on their XBox projects, we aren't even sure all projects saw returns on the development costs at that. And Sega had notable sales on GC/PS2 around the same time (VF4/Evo, Shinobi, Sonic Adventure2B/Mega Collection, Monkey Ball 1-2, PSO1&2, Sakura Taisen Remake, Soccer Club 2002, Baseball Club 2, etc)... "less poor" is directly misleading on your part.

This was the result of many factors related to an internal restructuring. One of the main being that SEGA was planning to create an exclusive Japanese sports developer. Smilebit had been wisely managed and had built a larger brand name than Amusement Vision for sports, so the popular Smilebit brand was retained for that. On the other hand, consolidation was a large focus of the shake-up, and Amusement Vision had proven themselves a worthy team to keep with their success on the Monkey Ball franchise and its budgeting. So, they were given the other side of the Smilebit operation.

It's not that simple, low performing divisions were regrouped with profitable divisions. While it's true Sega wanted a "sports team" that doesn't take away from Smilebit's nonsports divisions' exceptionally poor performance being the cause behind their regrouping. While Smilebit absorbed AV's 20 man Virtua Striker team, AV ate up nearly half of Smilebit in return.

The Xbox deal gave TJ&E3 a MS funded, multi-million dollar US television advertising campaign it wouldn't have otherwise been given. That would be the option a company would go for every time.

Not in a unprofitable, unsustainable, false marketplace. Which is what the XBox offers Sega.

Arcade titles are conceived first and foremost for the arcade where Chihiro provides a good price/performance solution, so Chihiro has still been the preference for showcase arcade title development (that'll be changing now with the new PowerVR board, though.) The fact that SEGA has to be enticed by MS to bring Chihiro titles to the Xbox market is acknowledgement of their poor acceptance there - no argument.

House of the Dead III (Chihiro's headlining project) suggests otherwise. Sega had high hopes for the board and it's clear simple amusement to consumer conversions played a large part in that conceptually.

Their lower-profile franchises weren't performing well on the other platforms either, so Panzer wouldn't likely have sold much more and wouldn't have had the MS funded, multi million dollar US TV ad campaign. The first sequel to Crazy Taxi showed some declining popularity (even accounting for its late release on DC), but the success of Acclaim's port of the first shows that Crazy Taxi 3 could've very probably done triply well on PS2 or GC than its poor results on Xbox. On the other hand, The House of the Dead 3 has sold very respectably on MS's console through steady sales and a good sustaining of its pricepoint. Overall, there hasn't been a significant advantage demonstrated in SEGA's PS2 or GC sales to account for passing on such an assured publishing deal.

Panzer Orta would've cleaned up in Japan, imo. The previous Panzer shooters managed 800k and 500k in the region respectively, there's no doubt in my mind Sega could've orchestrated a proper media revival had the game been on PS2 (alongside VF, Shinobi & Sakura Taisen). I also think the game would've had better western sales on GC/PS2, though not as dramatic.

HotD3's poor sales led AM2 to pass on doing OutRun 2 or Virtua Cop 3 conversions. It's proven to them at least there's no market on XBox for these sorts of games.

I'd agree when Sega made the deal, it was a sound move. But in hindsight, GameCube & PS2 have clearly proven to be more lucrative markets for their games, so much so that commiting any exclusive resources to XBox was clearly a grave mistake. If only they'd known then...

GUNVALKYRIE was not one of the SEGA Xclusives. Smilebit picked Xbox because they were most familiar with its development architecture after their recent PC work and could maximize development expense savings that way. Interestingly, it sold better than GunGrave, a PS2 effort with comparability in release date and mixed critical reception and with the added benefit of an anime license (SEGA's payment for which is the only reason GunGrave is allowed a sequel.)

GunValkyrie was indeed one of the 11 exclusive projects (along with Smilebit's JSRF & Orta in fact). And GunGrave wasn't developed by Sega, the game preceded the animated tie-in or bound to any exclusivity contracts... it's not really comparable.

Hardly: Xbox division management was shaken up for not seeing the return from the large spending on third-party deals like this. Besides, the company which funds a game's development has to manage the project, so developers and their parent publishers usually don't go with outside funding in order to avoid the extra negotiation and logistics necessary under this kind of arrangement. Publishing, advertising, and incentive deals like SEGA had are far more preferred and prevalent.

But not when it comes to Microsoft in the Japanese market. Atlus, Level 5, Artoon, Capcom, Namco, Anchor, Genki, MediaVision, Dream Factory, Red and even Sega AM2 (among others) saw actual funding of specific project development from Microsoft. It's almost a running joke how developers used MS funds towards PS2 projects in Japan.

edit: The main failing of SEGA's consumer division since going third party has been revealed in their financial disclosures to be the missed expectations on the SEGA Sports 2K line.

Well, that was mainly due to missing their unattainable targets and overspending on advertising budgets. With Tale 2 moving in however, I doubt Sega will be able to make that same excuse too much longer...

 

[ScientificNinja]

Last I checked, Sega was located in the concourse at E3, that place where games publishers go to die. I loved them while they were good, but their latest offerings have been pretty abysmal.

 

[AniHawk]

Last I checked, Sega was located in the concourse at E3, that place where games publishers go to die. I loved them while they were good, but their latest offerings have been pretty abysmal.

Yeah. They were next door to Acclaim. Ouch.

Hopefully Sammy can help turn things around. Sega's been hurtin' far too long now.

 

[jarrod]

I think Toe Jam and Earl would have Bombed on PS2, too much compatention, and even if it had been on the gamecube the game's Popularity would be in doubt. Also Jet Set radio Future would have done bad too, it didn
t do well on the Dreamcast, and People seem to say the original is better, I disagree, but it could have been overshadowed too unless it was a Gamecube launch title or came out for GameCube when Nintendo didn't publish anything. Why exclude GunValkyrie, if you say some games would sell better , why not add it to the list? I am just trying to Understand why you seem to rant about how Sega have supported each system after the Dreamcast.

I agree TJ&E3 had little hope anywhere actually. JSRF would've made an excellent GC release however I'd wager, especially as it released in the GC's post launch drought period (which also helped Sonic immensely). The game seems like a perfect fit with the quirky GC audience.

People mention the Sega X-box flops, but thier have been a few flops on Ps2 and gamecube too ( nightshade, virtual on, beach spikers ect...) I have a feeling that Astro Boy and Amazing Island well bomb too.

True but at least GC/PS2 have highs to go with the lows. And Sega didn't develop Amazing Island.

Thier are others Like Shinobi and Monkey ball that have done allright in thier sales, but they are not million sellers or anything.

Both have broken a million in fact.

I will say this, I wish Sega would port some of the X-box games over to other consoles just to see how they would have do, I don't see why Sega doesn't take a chance.

I'd agree, Sega should really be prting all around. Port VF4 to XBox. Port PSO to PS2. Port Astro Boy to GameCube. Exclusives are too risky in this day and age.

As for the issue of Sega Porting the Chihiro board games, I have this to say, where are the Triforce board games for GameCube? It seems both board got one or two ports. F-Zero x for Gamecube and House of the Dead 3 and Outrun 2 for the X-box.

TriForce actually has a higher percentage...

TRIFORCE (Nintendo/Sega/Namco co-owned)
-F-Zero AX (Amusement Vision) available on GameCube
-F-Zero AX: Monster Ride (Amusement Vision)
-Getikou Pro Yakyuu (Wow Entertainment) available on GameCube
-The Key of Avalon: The Wizard Master (Hitmaker)
-The Key of Avalon: Summon the New Monsters (Hitmaker)
-The Key of Avalon II: Order and Commandment (Hitmaker)
-Virtua Striker 2002 (Amusement Vision) available on GameCube
-Virtua Striker 4 (Smilebit)

CHIHIRO (Sega owned, licensed from Microsoft)
-Crazy Taxi: High Roller (Hitmaker) available on XBox
-Ghost Squad (Sega-AM2)
-House of the Dead III, The (Wow Entertainment) available on XBox
-Ollie King (Amusement Vision)
-Outrun 2 (Sega-AM2) available on XBox, outsourced to Sumo Digital
-Outrun 2SP: Outrun 2 Special Tours (Sega-AM2)
-Sega Golf Club Network Pro Tour (Sega-AM2)
-Sega Network Taisen MJ-2 (Sega-AM2)
-Virtua Cop 3 (Sega-AM2)

 

[Defensor]

A bit offtopic but Jarrod, do you have a complete list of titles that were based off System 246?

 

[TheGreenGiant]

doomed by xbox.

xbox is doomed. :|

But seriously... the game was tosh; no matter what system.

so... :shrugs:

more evidence of the SEGA slide to death.

 

[jarrod]

A bit offtopic but Jarrod, do you have a complete list of titles that were based off System 246?

Nope, but I'll compile one tomorrow. Off to bed.

 

[MC Safety]

I had the pleasure to meet and interview Greg Johnson and Mark Voorsanger. They're both extremely smart guys and very talented game makers.

It's sad to see their company and their partnership disbanded. I wish them nothing but great fortune.

 

[BlackClouds]

As one of the biggest Toe Jam and Earl supporters, I am very sad that this has happened. I thought Toe Jam and Earl 3 was a very good game, even without the online play it desperately needed to avoid a lot of the negative hype against the game. Best pure representation of a 16bit game made into 3D yet, I believe. It's also obvious the game was made on the wrong hardware with the wrong fanbase (should've been on gamecube first, they respect old console game franchises, and there's no anti Sega stigma like on the PS2). I think the producer on Gamefaqs messageboard has confirmed the wrong platform choice.

What really irks me though is people like Jeff Gertsmann at Gamespot.com, a couple of idiots on G4tv, and elsewhere that tried to assert that the game was made by a bunch of white guys trying to be hip. The game has a profound knowledge of its subject matter that only one who grew up in the culture could create something like that. As did I, and I can vouch for its authenticity. The game is full of the type of racial humor black commedians tend to have. The game was not trying to be a game realistic real world music or some other percieved nonsense. It was what it was, cartoon based adventure based on the culture of rap/rnb music.

Reminds me of music reviews of black music done by white reviewers deciding for folks what is hip or not. Haven't these idiots ever wondered why every single game produced by TJ&E productions is black themed? For some these reviewers to imply the game is phoney, bleached version of the culture is extremely insulting. Not sure if there's racism in there, but it's certainly in very bad taste to misrepresent the truth just to diss a game.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/adventure/toejamearl3missiontoearth/index.html?q=toe+jam+and+earl+3
Jeff Gertsmann is a fucking sad individual who should not have reviewed the game if he had a problem with the theme.

Cliffy B on G4tv is a fucking idiot who should keep is ignorant mouth shut.

 

[Lazy8s]

jarrod:

Saved dollars don't count for much considering the miniscule returns Sega made on their XBox projects, we aren't even sure all projects saw returns on the development costs at that.

A saved dollar in Xbox publishing is worth the same as a dollar that would've been spent for comparable publishing on another platform.

And Sega had notable sales on GC/PS2 around the same time (VF4/Evo, Shinobi, Sonic Adventure2B/Mega Collection, Monkey Ball 1-2, PSO1&2, Sakura Taisen Remake, Soccer Club 2002, Baseball Club 2, etc)... "less poor" is directly misleading on your part.

But to get a picture of the "overall sales", which was the reference made, the lower-than-Xbox dismal performers would also have to be taken into account like Beach Spikers and Virtua Striker 2002 on GC and Bass Fishing Duel, Aero Elite, Rez, King of the Route 66, and GunGrave on the PS2 - not just a list of most of the games that had already proved themselves to be SEGA's top franchises on the Saturn and Dreamcast like Virtua Fighter, Sonic, Sakura Taisen, and the Let's Make a Pro games.

It's not that simple, low performing divisions were regrouped with profitable divisions. While it's true Sega wanted a "sports team" that doesn't take away from Smilebit's nonsports divisions' exceptionally poor performance being the cause behind their regrouping.

With smart management that balanced creative risk with assured sales from staple franchises, Smilebit was one of the more profitable, and neither Smilebit nor AV were penalized in the restructuring. The reorganization simply conformed to the strength of their respective brand associations.

Not in a unprofitable, unsustainable, false marketplace. Which is what the XBox offers Sega.

The relative success of World Series Baseball, NFL 2K2, and NBA 2K2 on Xbox showed SEGA that their software had a chance to sustain itself on the platform through sales.

House of the Dead III (Chihiro's headlining project) suggests otherwise.

It proves the complete opposite. Chihiro was still chosen for the subsequent, new, showcase arcade titles like Virtua Cop 3 and OutRun 2 because SEGA felt the board provided the best option even when accounting for home market weakness. While it's disappointing that SEGA should have to be wary of bringing arcade games home to Xbox, they demonstrated that the primary concern when selecting an arcade board was the arcade market and not the potential home market, especially to a company like SEGA that makes more money in the arcades than in the home.

Panzer Orta would've cleaned up in Japan, imo. The previous Panzer shooters managed 800k and 500k in the region respectively,

The popularity continued to decline with Saga, and highly-rated RPGs generally sold better than shooters.

there's no doubt in my mind Sega could've orchestrated a proper media revival had the game been on PS2 (alongside VF, Shinobi & Sakura Taisen).

VF and Sakura Taisen had remained two of SEGA's guaranteed sellers through all of the years after the Saturn, and even they couldn't replicate quite the success in Japan on PS2 they saw on Saturn where VF2 moved over 1.5 million and Sakura around a million.

Shinobi was actually expected to shift several hundred thousand on name alone, regardless of platform or advertising. They didn't manage much more than that on PS2 with a Sony co-ad campaign.

HotD3's poor sales led AM2 to pass on doing OutRun 2 or Virtua Cop 3 conversions. It's proven to them at least there's no market on XBox for these sorts of games.

Arcade titles like King of the Route 66, Beach Spikers, F355 Challenge, Virtua Striker 2002, Bass Fishing Duel, and Home Run King all sold much less for the other platforms. The House of the Dead III actually compares well to sales of other light-gun games on PS2.

GunValkyrie was indeed one of the 11 exclusive projects

This is a common mistaken assumption.

And GunGrave wasn't developed by Sega,

Red was partially owned by SEGA, and the game was published by SEGA. It counts as much as Sakura Taisen.

...Sega AM2 (among others) saw actual funding of specific project development from Microsoft.

AM2 got development funding only because MS bought the publishing rights to a port of the game. Same with Sonic Team and Phantasy Star Online Episodes I&II.

Anyway, it doesn't change that SEGA themselves preferred the arrangement they got.

Well, that was mainly due to missing their unattainable targets and overspending on advertising budgets.

Publishers have no problem blaming a specific console for missed sales. The Xbox just wasn't a noteworthy contributor to be disclosed in their filings.

With Tale 2 moving in however, I doubt Sega will be able to make that same excuse too much longer...

It wasn't an excuse, and they won't need to cite it this year (finally!) because it won't be a factor since they hit their marks.

 

[Espio]

Is a sad day indeed

 

[Rlan]

Shame. If they could make the games a little less repetitive, they could easily make a game similar to the first on the Nintendo DS, two screens would work wonders for this game, and the Multiplayer.

 

[jarrod]

Fist thing's first, here's your PS2 based board lists Defensor...

SYSTEM 246 (Namco owned, licensed from SCEI)
-Alpine Racer 3 (Namco AM)
-Battle Gear 3 (Taito)
-Battle Gear 3 Tuned (Taito)
-Bloody Roar 3 (Eighting)
-Capcom Fighting Evolution (Capcom Studio 1)
-Cobra: The Arcade (Namco AM)
-Dragon Chronicles (Namco AM)
-Dragon Chronicles II (Namco AM)
-Gun Survivor 3 : Dino Crisis (Capcom Studio 3)
-Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: AEUG VS Titians (Capcom Studio 1)
-Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: AEUG VS Titians DX (Capcom Studio 1)
-Pride GP 2003 (Dream Factory)
-Professional Baseball 2002 (Namco AM)
-Raizin Ping Pong (Taito)
-Ridge Racer V: Arcade Battle (Namco AM)
-Samurai Surf X (Namco AM)
-Smash Court Tennis: Pro Tournament (Namco AM)
-Soul Caliber 2 (Namco AM)
-Starblade:Operation Blue Planet (Namco AM)
-Tekken 4 (Namco AM)
-The Idol Master (Namco AM)
-Time Crisis 3 (Namco AM)
-Vampire Night (Wow Entertainment)
-Wangan Midnight (Genki)
-Wangan Midnight: Maxi Boost (Genki)
-Wangan Midnight R (Genki)
-Zoids Infinity (Taito)

SYSTEM 258 (Namco owned, licensed from SCEI)
-Tekken 5 (Namco AM)

PSYON (Konami owned, licensed from SCEI)
-Dog Station
-Dog Station Deluxe
-Hawaiian De Golf/Mocap Golf
-Nice Smash
-Perfect Pool
-Pool Pocket Fortunes
-R.P.M. Red: Tuned Car Championship
-World Combat
-World Soccer Winning Eleven Arcade Game Style/Pro Evolution Soccer The Arcade
-World Soccer Winning Eleven Arcade Game Style 2003

A saved dollar in Xbox publishing is worth the same as a dollar that would've been spent for comparable publishing on another platform.

Not when you're seeing no return from that dollar. And both Nintendo and Sony offered Sega game specific incentive/royalty/advertising deals anyway... Sony's campaigns in particular for Shinobi and VF4 are likely what their western success can be mainly attributed to.

But to get a picture of the "overall sales", which was the reference made, the lower-than-Xbox dismal performers would also have to be taken into account like Beach Spikers and Virtua Striker 2002 on GC and Bass Fishing Duel, Aero Elite, Rez, King of the Route 66, and GunGrave on the PS2 - not just a list of most of the games that had already proved themselves to be SEGA's top franchises on the Saturn and Dreamcast like Virtua Fighter, Sonic, Sakura Taisen, and the Let's Make a Pro games.

As I said to sonic4ever, the difference here being PS2 and GC had extreme highs to go with the extreme lows... they had a proven hungry fanbase (especially on GameCube). And while it's true games like VF, Sonic and Sakura Taisen already had poular brand recognition from DC/Saturn, that didn't seem to help XBox properties like Crazy Taxi, House of the Dead or Panzer Dragoon. And there were other success stories like Shinobi (revived brand), Monkey Ball (new brand) or even Virtua Fighter (huge western gains) on other platforms even... Xbox doesn't have anything comparable.

With smart management that balanced creative risk with assured sales from staple franchises, Smilebit was one of the more profitable, and neither Smilebit nor AV were penalized in the restructuring. The reorganization simply conformed to the strength of their respective brand associations.

Nobody was penalized per se (except Mizuguchi arguably), but both teams saw their unprofitable sectors dissolved and regrouped. Only while that amounted to one game specific team for Amusement Vision, in Smilebit's case it was half the company.

The relative success of World Series Baseball, NFL 2K2, and NBA 2K2 on Xbox showed SEGA that their software had a chance to sustain itself on the platform through sales.

WSB sank fast on XBox, even as an exclusive. It was around 50-60k before budget pricing came in.

NFL and NBA actually proved to be decent performers on every platform (GameCube included). Sports is really the one market Sega has any future in on XBox.

It proves the complete opposite. Chihiro was still chosen for the subsequent, new, showcase arcade titles like Virtua Cop 3 and OutRun 2 because SEGA felt the board provided the best option even when accounting for home market weakness. While it's disappointing that SEGA should have to be wary of bringing arcade games home to Xbox, they demonstrated that the primary concern when selecting an arcade board was the arcade market and not the potential home market, especially to a company like SEGA that makes more money in the arcades than in the home.

No, it proves the original philosophy behind the creation of Chihiro. Only now subsequently after that idea failed has Chihiro become a marquee machine (taking over for Naomi 2)... and soon it'll be ousted by System SP/Naomi 3.

The popularity continued to decline with Saga, and highly-rated RPGs generally sold better than shooters.

Not in Panzer Dragoon's case actually (Azel sold around 97k). This could've been a big revival for Sega, now it's unclear if the franchise will continue at all.

VF and Sakura Taisen had remained two of SEGA's guaranteed sellers through all of the years after the Saturn, and even they couldn't replicate quite the success in Japan on PS2 they saw on Saturn where VF2 moved over 1.5 million and Sakura around a million.

Both Saturn Sakura Taisens sold around 600k I believe (and I've seen VF2 figures as high as 1.8 million). Also both franchises took a notable hit with Dreamcast first, which with PlayStation 2 they have managed to somewhat recover from.... PS2 sales have proven consistant to or better than Dreamcast for all Sega's Japanese games so far.

Shinobi was actually expected to shift several hundred thousand on name alone, regardless of platform or advertising. They didn't manage much more than that on PS2 with a Sony co-ad campaign.

Name alone? For an old forgotten IP? So did we also expect TJ&E3 to shift several hundred thousand on name alone? Can Altered Beast and Outrun 2 expect a similar level of effortless revival without Sony ad campaigns?

Don't play dumb Lazy, Sony was instrumental in Shinobi's remarkable success. It was one of the better moves Sega's made in the 3rd party shift.

Arcade titles like King of the Route 66, Beach Spikers, F355 Challenge, Virtua Striker 2002, Bass Fishing Duel, and Home Run King all sold much less for the other platforms. The House of the Dead III actually compares well to sales of other light-gun games on PS2.

I was talking specifically about effortless consumer based AM board conversions. But if you'd like to play this game, Vampire Night, F-Zero GX, Super Monkey Ball, Crazy Taxi PS2, Crazy Taxi GC, 18 Wheeler PS2, VF4, VF4 Evolution, Puyo Puyo Fever PS2 have proven there's a far more viable market for Sega's arcade games elsewhere.

HotD3 is the weakest selling game in the series. Namco's Time Crisis games regularly clear 600k worldwide when all's said and done... HotD3 is actually on the lower end performance wise for such a high budget, high profile gun game.

This is a common mistaken assumption.

I don't think so... care to list the 11 Sega games then?

Red was partially owned by SEGA, and the game was published by SEGA. It counts as much as Sakura Taisen.

Sakura Taisen is developed internally at Overworks (now Sega Wow). GunGrave was outsourced... pretty clear difference there.

Red might be partially owned by Sega (majority owned actually I believe) but they still operate as an indipendant developer. Would you also consider NUDE, Tengai Makyo, Bonk, RoboPon or Bijulangi to be Sega games?

AM2 got development funding only because MS bought the publishing rights to a port of the game. Same with Sonic Team and Phantasy Star Online Episodes I&II.

Yes, though I'm not entirely sure if PSO XBox was funded by MS. Naka was pretty pissed at Microsoft's treatment of it anyway.

Anyway, it doesn't change that SEGA themselves preferred the arrangement they got.

In retrospect, I doubt it. I'm sure they'd prefer a no risk deal like Capcom got for Tekki or Namco for Breakdown.

Publishers have no problem blaming a specific console for missed sales. The Xbox just wasn't a noteworthy contributor to be disclosed in their filings.

Indeed, though they did single out successful GC, PS2 & GBA projects as high points for the consumer division regularly. XBox was never mentioned in any capacity usually.

It wasn't an excuse, and they won't need to cite it this year (finally!) because it won't be a factor since they hit their marks.

And in the next two years, Sammy will have sold VC off to Take 2 completely. Then Sega won't have to say a word.

 

[M3wThr33]

I'd be the first in line to pick up any Sega games ported over to the GameCube.
Specificially Shenmue 2, Cray Taxi 3 and Jet Set Radio Future.

They just don't match the Xbox demographic of non-Japanese games with a better-than-the-East attitude.

 

[Defensor]

Fist thing's first, here's your PS2 based board lists Defensor...

Thankyou Jarrod!
I'm saving these lists.

 

[Apharmd Battler]

I really liked TJ&E3, one on the best 3D camera in a console plaform game. I had a blast with it, but once again, it didn't appeal to the casual gamers. I think a sequel should be done, but there's little chance of that happening.........

 

[Buffy4ever]

.

TriForce actually has a higher percentage...

TRIFORCE (Nintendo/Sega/Namco co-owned)
-F-Zero AX (Amusement Vision) available on GameCube
-F-Zero AX: Monster Ride (Amusement Vision)
-Getikou Pro Yakyuu (Wow Entertainment) available on GameCube
-The Key of Avalon: The Wizard Master (Hitmaker)
-The Key of Avalon: Summon the New Monsters (Hitmaker)
-The Key of Avalon II: Order and Commandment (Hitmaker)
-Virtua Striker 2002 (Amusement Vision) available on GameCube
-Virtua Striker 4 (Smilebit)

CHIHIRO (Sega owned, licensed from Microsoft)
-Crazy Taxi: High Roller (Hitmaker) available on XBox
-Ghost Squad (Sega-AM2)
-House of the Dead III, The (Wow Entertainment) available on XBox
-Ollie King (Amusement Vision)
-Outrun 2 (Sega-AM2) available on XBox, outsourced to Sumo Digital
-Outrun 2SP: Outrun 2 Special Tours (Sega-AM2)
-Sega Golf Club Network Pro Tour (Sega-AM2)
-Sega Network Taisen MJ-2 (Sega-AM2)
-Virtua Cop 3 (Sega-AM2)

at this time it looks like both Gamecube and X-box arcade board ports are =. Both boards had 3 games poert to a home console
Just becuase Sumo Digital is porting Outrun 2, it is sitll considered a Sega game, becuase it was Sega of Europe that originaly was the ones that asked for the Port.
I think of it as Nintendo commissioning F-Zero AX.

I do have a question in general do fans consider F-Zero Sega's gane or Nintendo's game . I know Nintendo own the Ip but everyone seems to list this game under Sega.

 

[Lazy8s]

Toe Jam & Earl III's sales, like those of SEGA's third-party games in general, were the victim of SEGA's poor distribution capabilities and POP presence more than anything else. Companies like Acclaim and THQ can release the exact same game as SEGA in the same packaging with the same advertising and end up shifting many more copies. It's no wonder SEGA's been enlisting the assistance for distribution of so many partners: Sony, Take Two, Acclaim, Microsoft, THQ, Infogrames/Atari.

The Xbox may not be the best demographic for the SEGA games it received, but fiscal disclosures show that the games weren't any worse off for it financially, accounting for expense savings, than the characteristic performance of the consumer division. SEGA's capacity to fund their operation doesn't make the distinction between dollars returned from lowered expenses and dollars returned from game sales, and cash flow is ultimately what a business runs on.

jarrod:

Not when you're seeing no return from that dollar.

Less return is needed to see profit when there's less expense.

Only now subsequently after that idea failed

The assertion of a consumer-minded "plan" for arcade board selection is faulty: if such a plan had failed, TriForce or some custom PS2-derived variation would've been adopted in its place.

...has Chihiro become a marquee machine (taking over for Naomi 2)...

Arcade boards are chosen for precisely such arcade oriented purposes. Selection of Chihiro for arcade games did not change.

Not in Panzer Dragoon's case actually (Azel sold around 97k).

Exactly, continued declining popularity for the series was demonstrated by Saga's (Azel) sales.

Both Saturn Sakura Taisens sold around 600k I believe

Sakura 1 was a little higher; Sakura 2 was quite a ways off the sales of the first.

Also both franchises took a notable hit with Dreamcast first,

That was really more attributable to the Dreamcast not fully recapturing the Saturn's userbase yet. The ratio of sales for SEGA's franchises to the DC's userbase was still pretty much in line with what the Japanese Saturn had.

which with PlayStation 2 they have managed to somewhat recover from....

Dreamcast numbers still needed some time to grow, but the PS2 numbers for Virtua Fighter, Sakura Taisen, and the Let's Make a Pro series haven't improved their Saturn figures (the Let's Make a Pro games did around 500k on Saturn in Japan.)

Name alone?

Companies have researchers for this of course. Shinobi was the unused brand they found to have the most potential from their back catalog, and they set their expectations and shipments for the game to match. Like VF4 in Japan which managed to disappointingly cover almost all demand with just an initial 600k shipment, Shinobi didn't reach what SEGA was assuming as retail restock orders didn't continue at a normal pace.

I was talking specifically about effortless consumer based AM board conversions.

There's no market on the other two consoles for games converted down from their respective console-derived arcade board with which to compare HoTD3's sales. F-Zero GX was published by Nintendo.

But if you'd like to play this game, Vampire Night, F-Zero GX, Super Monkey Ball, Crazy Taxi PS2, Crazy Taxi GC, 18 Wheeler PS2, VF4, VF4 Evolution, Puyo Puyo Fever PS2 have proven there's a far more viable market for Sega's arcade games elsewhere.

SEGA wasn't even responsible for the publishing of most of those games. And then there's the popularity of the VF franchise. And for GameCube, with Monkey Ball, there was also Virtua Striker 2002, Home Run Kings, and Beach Spikers. Neither PS2 nor GC demonstrated a market for SEGA's arcade ports that should have them turn down an Xbox publishing deal for HoTD3.

I don't think so... care to list the 11 Sega games then?

GUNVALKYRIE was one of the eleven from the publishing agreement... at the start. Subsequent negotiations prior to the game's release changed its status to non-exclusive - not that SEGA was anxious to port around, though.

Sakura Taisen is developed internally at Overworks (now Sega Wow). GunGrave was outsourced... pretty clear difference there.

Red was the design lead on both games (and the distinction carries for Sakura Taisen remakes of Red's work), and SEGA published both games. GunGrave is as reasonable an example of a SEGA game for this context as Sakura.

 

[Buffy4ever]

HotD3 is the weakest selling game in the series. Namco's Time Crisis games regularly clear 600k worldwide when all's said and done... HotD3 is actually on the lower end performance wise for such a high budget, high profile gun game.

QUOTE]

I am not doubting That Namco's Time Crisis games have sold better then House of the Dead 3 worldwide, But maybe when Lazy8 was talking about how "House of the dead 3" was selling as well as Namco's Gun games he was only refering to the USA. If you go with that train of thought in the USA "House of the Dead 3" has sold has well as most of Namco's Gun games in the USA regieon.
I have a request for you, Jarrod. You seem to be knowlegable about worldwide sales figures for Sega. Can you get the complete totals that all Sega games have sold world wide. I know Ani-hawk gives numbers for Sega games Published in the USA each month, but it is hard to compare USA numners with worldwide number.

 

[jarrod]

I'm not too interested in rebutting this new distribution excuse, the concept is already desperate enough as is and Sega's excellent GC/PS2 sales more or less prove that distribution and visibility couldn't have been TJ&E3's primary downfall.

Heavy XBox support was a mistake, period. Lazy, you can try to rationalize out actual market performance being countered by Microsoft incentives (ingoring the fact that both Nintendo and Sony supplied incentives of their own) but the bottom line is that Sega threw resources at XBox that got little if any return, built no market fanbase for the future and their timereally would've been better spent elsewhere. No way around that... even for a Sega fan.

Less return is needed to see profit when there's less expense.

Unfortunately we can't be sure all Sega XBox projects even saw a return. Given TJ&E Productions getting the axe, I can't say it's likely.

The assertion of a consumer-minded "plan" for arcade board selection is faulty: if such a plan had failed, TriForce or some custom PS2-derived variation would've been adopted in its place.

Arcade boards are chosen for precisely such arcade oriented purposes. Selection of Chihiro for arcade games did not change.

Plans can change, and Sega's not one to throw away technology. The fact that Chihiro (and TriForce) is a high performance, cost effective board is good enough to keep selecting it for projects, even if it failed at replacing Naomi/ST-V as a target for simple amusement/consumer cross-over.

Exactly, continued declining popularity for the series was demonstrated by Saga's (Azel) sales.

Actually Azel marked a critical break for the series in Japan, not a continual decline. Consumers hated the new direction and critics generally panned it... Orta on the other hand was a throwback to the "good old days" of Panzer Dragoon and could've marked a significant revival for the property on PS2 (or even GameCube to a lesser extent).

Sakura 1 was a little higher; Sakura 2 was quite a ways off the sales of the first.

I thought Sakura 1 was the better selling game actually. At most I can see sales of 800k, no Saturn games outside VF1 & VF2 broke the million barrier.

That was really more attributable to the Dreamcast not fully recapturing the Saturn's userbase yet. The ratio of sales for SEGA's franchises to the DC's userbase was still pretty much in line with what the Japanese Saturn had.

We're moving into ratio arguments now? Keep reaching, ratio always goes down as userbase goes up. Proportionately Sakura Taisen, Virtua Fighter and everything else performed better on DC than Saturn also... the ratio ploy doesn't even show consistantcy.

And the sad fact is, DC never would've recaptured Saturn's marketplace, even had Sega kept things going. Implying it just hadn't happened yet is optimistic to say the least...

Dreamcast numbers still needed some time to grow, but the PS2 numbers for Virtua Fighter, Sakura Taisen, and the Let's Make a Pro series haven't improved their Saturn figures (the Let's Make a Pro games did around 500k on Saturn in Japan.)

They're pretty consistant actually though for everything outside VF. Soccer Club games still sell about 500k on PS2, the Sakura 1 remake managed 300k (V should do much better)... at the least it's still a step up from Dreamcast.

Companies have researchers for this of course. Shinobi was the unused brand they found to have the most potential from their back catalog, and they set their expectations and shipments for the game to match. Like VF4 in Japan which managed to disappointingly cover almost all demand with just an initial 600k shipment, Shinobi didn't reach what SEGA was assuming as retail restock orders didn't continue at a normal pace.

Well what games have surpassed Sega's targets? At least Shinobi sold out it's first shipment in a timely matter, which is more than can be said for any of Sega's nonsports XBox projects.

There's no market on the other two consoles for games converted down from their respective console-derived arcade board with which to compare HoTD3's sales. F-Zero GX was published by Nintendo.

Vampire Night and F-Zero GX both did fairly well, though you're right in that Sega published neither game. Not that it makes HoTD3's performance any more understandable, it's pretty clear XBox's unreceptive marketplace is the stumbling block there... we'll see how the MGS published Outrun 2 (which is getting quite a bit of fanfare) manages this fall...

SEGA wasn't even responsible for the publishing of most of those games. And then there's the popularity of the VF franchise. And for GameCube, with Monkey Ball, there was also Virtua Striker 2002, Home Run Kings, and Beach Spikers. Neither PS2 nor GC demonstrated a market for SEGA's arcade ports that should have them turn down an Xbox publishing deal for HoTD3.

Again, GC & PS2 have record highs to go with the lows. XBox is just low.

GUNVALKYRIE was one of the eleven from the publishing agreement... at the start. Subsequent negotiations prior to the game's release changed its status to non-exclusive - not that SEGA was anxious to port around, though.

Again, how about a list of those 11 exclusives?

Red was the design lead on both games (and the distinction carries for Sakura Taisen remakes of Red's work), and SEGA published both games. GunGrave is as reasonable an example of a SEGA game for this context as Sakura.

Except Sega made Sakura Tasien and not GunGrave. Try again.

 

[Hotsuma]

Lazy8s, I think it's best not to even bother with responses. Alost everything about Sega's dealings with MS/Xbox will be filled with nothing but negativity from Jarrod. It's best to just read his thoughts and move on.

I am glad Panzer Dragoon Orta and HOTD 3 passed 100,000 sold point. I hope OutRun 2 puts up some good numbers (reviews and sales wise) so Virtua Cop 3 and Ghost Squad can get ported at some point.

 

[jarrod]

Lazy8s, I think it's best not to even bother with responses. Alost everything about Sega's dealings with MS/Xbox will be filled with nothing but negativity from Jarrod. It's best to just read his thoughts and move on.

That's not true, I think at the time of the 11 game deal Sega made the "right move"... it's only in retrospect that we've discovered it was really the "wrong move". Meanwhile Lazy's trying to prove Sega's lack of return on XBox is somehow acceptable thanks to not spending much on advertising and getting royalty cuts (on software that sits on shelves btw) and using convoluted ratio arguments to try disprove Sega's PS2 market. Bravo for the well balanced effort there.

For what it's worth though, I think Sega should give Xenon a similar upfront effort to try and build a market, and I disagree with AM2 that Chihiro ports wouldn't make enough of a return to to justify porting (development's aleady done after all, porting costs should be negligible). ESPN/Sega Sports has done really well on XBox also... and I think porducts like Shinobi or VF4 would do reasonably well on the platform too if Sega chose to ever port them.

 

[ge-man]

Lazy8s, I think it's best not to even bother with responses. Alost everything about Sega's dealings with MS/Xbox will be filled with nothing but negativity from Jarrod. It's best to just read his thoughts and move on.

I am glad Panzer Dragoon Orta and HOTD 3 passed 100,000 sold point. I hope OutRun 2 puts up some good numbers (reviews and sales wise) so Virtua Cop 3 and Ghost Squad can get ported at some point.

I agree that it's time to move on for everybody. It's all in the past now and the console support thing is probably further down the list of important issues for the new Sega. Talking about it isn't going to change the outcome.

 

[Lazy8s]

There's nothing really to dispute. SEGA is legally obligated to disclose the factors that were significant to the loss they incurred, and the Xbox support wasn't revealed to be one of them. The money that consumer division did lose was attributed mainly to the 2K3 line of sports titles, which sold proportionately worst on PS2 and GC, missing expectations most on those platforms. Given that the consumer division posted an overall loss, the typical performance for SEGA's games was money-losing, so supporting PS2 or GC instead with the kind of results they were getting wouldn't have turned anything around.

There's was no greater market on PS2 or GC for them that would have justified turning down a generous Xbox publishing deal. SEGA's Xbox sales are middling yet consistent. Their PS2 and GC sales have quite an amount of real flops under 40k, yet they do have several good selling games too. However, those successes are really all relative considering neither their average nor peak reach what they were pulling in during their licensing fee-free DC days. The most significant reason for this is their decreased distribution and point-of-purchase presence they suffered since they lost their own dedicated section at retail by discontinuing Dreamcast.

SEGA's felt out the market now. Considering MS isn't beating down the door with another major publishing agreement at this point, SEGA's devoting their games that support themselves on Xbox: sports. They've cut a lot of the general support. GC is being given family titles, and sports titles have been cut from the platform. PS2 is being given pretty much everything.

jarrod:

(ingoring the fact that both Nintendo and Sony supplied incentives of their own)

... Just not to the scale that Microsoft did, which is why Sony and Nintendo got a lesser amount of commitment from SEGA.

Unfortunately we can't be sure all Sega XBox projects even saw a return.

Return is simply incoming revenue - not profit. The value of a dollar doesn't change when its paying off project expense compared to when its cleared profit; bills still have to be paid. Considering SEGA's characteristic performance in the consumer division was loss producing, they weren't typically seeing profit in their endeavors in general - not just Xbox.

Actually Azel marked a critical break for the series in Japan, not a continual decline.

It continued the decline from Zwei, which was critically acclaimed and even came out when the Saturn userbase was a lot larger than with the first.

I thought Sakura 1 was the better selling game actually.

The first Sakura Taisen did sell the best - better than 600k. The second one was quite a ways lower than the first.

We're moving into ratio arguments now?

Attach ratios of SEGA's popular franchises on Dreamcast followed the similar highs they saw on Saturn at respective points in their lifespans: VF3tb was picked up at launch like the original VF was picked up at the Saturn's launch. Despite both consoles having userbases dwarfed by PS2, sales of SEGA's games on the platforms are quite comparable. It makes sense that a SEGA platform will attract so much higher of a ratio of their software buyers, so sales totals of their games would've kept on increasing higher than normal on DC had the company kept selling the system.

The popularity of Virtua Fighter, Sakura Taisen, and the Let's Make a Pro Soccer and Baseball games has shown to be relatively consistent, though still in a decline from the Saturn to the PS2. Virtua Fighter sold a lot better on the Japanese Saturn, Sakura Taisen sold much better on the Saturn (but didn't even repeat quite the success of the first game in its Saturn sequel), and the Let's Make a Pro series games sold at least as well.

Well what games have surpassed Sega's targets?

Most notably, Super Monkey Ball. Overall, not many seeing as how too-high projections caused disappointment in their fiscal results.

Again, how about a list of those 11 exclusives?

It was no longer exactly the same contract when GUNVALKYRIE was renegotiated.

Except Sega made Sakura Tasien and not GunGrave.

Programming and animation are often outsourced. Designing a game is a significant part of making it, obviously. SEGA has ownership of licenses and IP for GunGrave.

 

[Che]

What really annoys me with Xbox is exactly this. Great franchises have failed and crap like EA games and other useless junk sell great. At least GC owners avoid the third party games that deserve to be avoided (like EA, THQ, Midway and other generic crap). On the other hand PS2 owners buy everything.

 

[Buffy4ever]

What really annoys me with Xbox is exactly this. Great franchises have failed and crap like EA games and other useless junk sell great. At least GC owners avoid the third party games that deserve to be avoided (like EA, THQ, Midway and other generic crap). On the other hand PS2 owners buy everything.

Gamecube ownwer tend to buy just Nintendo made titles and the exclusive games that come along.
Some people's junk is other people's treasure. EA and Midway has made quite a few good games this generations. I am have been surprised how a few license games have turned out well. Gamecube owners avoideing third party games has coast Nintendo a few 3rd parties. When Sony took over, Sony made the third party games more important then they were in the 16 bit days.