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[Coux]

Why would he admit it if he did nothing and they have nothing on him?

Goodell can't relent at this point, for fear of losing face. I think they were hoping Brady would roll over as Kraft did previously, but it's becoming painfully obvious that isn't going to happen. It may be that negotiations were another empty "good faith" exercise by the NFL and the judge. "Listen, just cop to it and we'll lower the suspension and we can move on." Neither side is backing down or giving an inch.

At the feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.


Basically Lance Armstrong fans at this point, who never actually admitted they were wrong about him, btw. They just went quiet.

Deny spygate? No, I don't see anyone denying Spygate. Explaining what Spygate was to people who think it was a huge fucking deal? Sure.

 

[Coux]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.

Pats fan living in Boston. I've never denied it. Most of my friends would admit it too. We certainly weren't pioneers is doing this. Other teams have as well. We just got more press, and we were just more brazen about it when we did it. Hubris, for sure.

 

[Stinkles]

Deny spygate? No, I don't see anyone denying Spygate. Explaining what Spygate was to people who think it was a huge fucking deal? Sure.

Haha. Amazing.

 

[forgeforsaken]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.


Basically Lance Armstrong fans at this point, who never actually admitted they were wrong about him, btw. They just went quiet.

I'd like to see some evidence of this, all I recall in the thread is people arguing over the nuances of Spygate, where it seems most people don't understand the actual infraction.

 

[spyder_ur]

What were their comments that you felt escalated the situation?

Kraft tried to de-escalate everything and it just blew up in his face. Fuck the behavior of the league. But mostly fuck the NFLPA for agreeing to allow the commissioner of the league to be the final voice in all player discipline arbitration.

Off the top of my head - Kraft demanding an apology immediately, Brady playing dumb as to even caring about the condition of the footballs in his early statements, the weird, poorly produced, poorly titled "Wells Report in Context" (as relevant as the facts contained in it are). I think all of those were poorly planned and/or executed.

The Patriots didn't realize until too late that they were up against people for whom the truth or any sense of perspective had no meaning, and against a person who more than anything hates to be challenged or feel like he's misled.

This has largely been a PR battle, and I don't see how you can say the Patriots have not made mistakes on that front.

Is it as bad as what the NFL has done or even in the same league? No, but like I said, pride and ego have led us to this point.

If Brady was innocent, which obviously I don't believe, then he'd be absolutely right to appeal and bitch about it. If he's guilty then the league is absolutely doing the right thing. One of the parties is incorrect so logically only one side is to blame no matter how you slice it.

One side can be correct about the facts while both sides can share the blame as to why they are in a federal court about an alleged equipment violation that noone has ever cared about before. That's not contradictory.

 

[ParityBit]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.


Basically Lance Armstrong fans at this point, who never actually admitted they were wrong about him, btw. They just went quiet.

How can you "deny it" Your making shit up. No one is denying it. The Patriots even said they did. What is being denied is the false reports. There was no practice recordings. There was game time recordings, no one is denying that.

It is more a group of individuals here who say "They did spygate so they are guilty no matter what, even with no evidence."

I am still waiting on how a reply on how 3 of the 4 Colt footballs were underinflated (9 of 12 on average).

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Haha. Amazing.

?

I'm not sure I get it. I've never seen anyone deny Spygate, which was the premise of your argument here (right?). I've seen lots of people apply a variety of relativistic arguments in attempts to revisit the impact of Spygate, but I've never seen anyone deny Spygate.

So if you wouldn't mind, could you show us these literal denials of Spygate? Those who say illegal taping it never happened? Or did you misspeak and mean something different?

 

[Troy]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.


Basically Lance Armstrong fans at this point, who never actually admitted they were wrong about him, btw. They just went quiet.

This is the kind of gross mischaracterization of events that only sports and politics can make people foolishly commit.

 

[spyder_ur]

The court proceeding today is open, right? Meaning we'll get updates from the press?

 

[bionic77]

Being a veteran of the NFL community I am going to quick step in for Stinkles who is obviously a stand up guy who is only interested in the truth and to see that justice is done against the evil doers.

Did Patriot fans actually deny Spygate? The details were generally not that it happened but Pat fans were definitely in denial. The main narrative, you can definitely see this in Bill Simmons columns, is that the Patriots were being punished because other teams were jealous of their success. Spygate gave no advantage, everyone was doing it, etc.

This was pretty similar to the narrative immediately after this scandal but because it is a specific player's name on the line the narrative eventually changed to nothing ever happened. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to show that the Pats were deflating footballs, but I don't think there is a smoking gun and it would be very tough to prove that without some confession or admission. So there is enough room for everyone to find something to latch onto.

Strangely the last poll I remember was that 70% of NFL fans think that the Pats and Brady were behind this so Brady's reputation is going to be forever tarnished no matter what the outcome is. That is what he is fighting for but they are past the point of no return. Goodall is trying to appear competent, also probably a losing battle. But he does whatever the owners say so he is safe for a few more years.

 

[Troy]

The court proceeding today is open, right? Meaning we'll get updates from the press?

Yep. So far all we really got is that neither side is giving in, which if Florio is right means the judge is going to indicate to the side that's going to eventually lose in his court that they better start negotiating today.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Haha. Amazing.

what a response from good ol' Stinkles

 

[spyder_ur]

Is there a good place to follow reports from this?

 

[Deku Tree]

So why aren't some news outlets getting the chance to offer Jim McNally and John Jastremski big bucks for on the record interviews? Where are these guys now? Why can't America hear their side of the story?

 

[Coux]

Being a veteran of the NFL community I am going to quick step in for Stinkles who is obviously a stand up guy who is only interested in the truth and to see that justice is done against the evil doers.

Did Patriot fans actually deny Spygate? The details were generally not that it happened but Pat fans were definitely in denial. The main narrative, you can definitely see this in Bill Simmons columns, is that the Patriots were being punished because other teams were jealous of their success. Spygate gave no advantage, everyone was doing it, etc.

This was pretty similar to the narrative immediately after this scandal but because it is a specific player's name on the line the narrative eventually changed to nothing ever happened. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to show that the Pats were deflating footballs, but I don't think there is a smoking gun and it would be very tough to prove that without some confession or admission. So there is enough room for everyone to find something to latch onto.

Strangely the last poll I remember was that 70% of NFL fans think that the Pats and Brady were behind this so Brady's reputation is going to be forever tarnished no matter what the outcome is. That is what he is fighting for but they are past the point of no return. Goodall is trying to appear competent, also probably a losing battle. But he does whatever the owners say so he is safe for a few more years.

I don't want to speak for all fans, but for me at least, I think the struggle is that the punishments seems a bit heavy handed given the history of fines for similar offenses. Give them a similar fine as other teams and we're on to the next season.

Then there's the questions of the Colt's balls, and the lack of any action taken there. Did they investigate the Colts and determine there was no malfeasance? Given that, and the recent release of the interviews with Brady concerning his phone and it just fuels the feeling of getting railroaded by the NFL. He was led to believe there would be no repercussions for not handing it over. He didn't, and now they're using that against him. Is this really Brady's SOP? Destroying an old phone when he gets a new one? Again, I can see it, but understand why others think that's a fishy move.

Granted, I'm a fan, so my opinion is 100% biased. But I think the opposite is also true. This serves to also fuel the fires of those that just don't like the Pats. I know this all too well - being in Boston, we go out of our way to hate on the Yankees. Fandom always plays a role in our perception.

It just feels a bit like specific targeting. I agree that both sides are being stubborn, but I can understand why, as the reputations of both are on the line. Neither wants any part of their legacy being tarnished.

 

[Quotient]

AlbertBreer: According to a source, settlement talks yesterday b/w the NFL and NFLPA on Brady went nowhere. Admission-of-guilt remains a stumbling block.

So they want Brady to recant his statements under oath?

 

[Deku Tree]

So they want Brady to recant his statements under oath?

Well here are more of his tweets:

-And when I asked about Monday settlement talks, one source said "if you'd call them that". So that should explain where things are.

-Roger Goodell just arrived at US Courthouse -- to a chorus of boos --for #Deflategate hearing

 

[Troy]

Well here are more of his tweets:

-And when I asked about Monday settlement talks, one source said "if you'd call them that". So that should explain where things are.

-Roger Goodell just arrived at US Courthouse -- to a chorus of boos --for #Deflategate hearing

NFL Network conveniently left off the audio when showing Goodell arrive.

 

[Quotient]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.


Basically Lance Armstrong fans at this point, who never actually admitted they were wrong about him, btw. They just went quiet.

I don't think any one, Patriots fan or not, denies spygate, though the truth is a lot less devious than the punishment and name, i.e. Patriots were punished for filming in the wrong location, the act of filming or stealing signals was perfectly legal.

 

[OSHAN]

Sources tell me Brady didn't give up his phone to protect Ben Affleck.

 

[Stinkles]

?

I'm not sure I get it. I've never seen anyone deny Spygate, which was the premise of your argument here (right?). I've seen lots of people apply a variety of relativistic arguments in attempts to revisit the impact of Spygate, but I've never seen anyone deny Spygate.

So if you wouldn't mind, could you show us these literal denials of Spygate? Those who say illegal taping it never happened? Or did you misspeak and mean something different?

That's fair. And I normally get my jimmies rustled by incorrect use of "literal" so let me apologize and rephrase:

"Many people in this thread have sought to diminish Spygate as an irrelevance or mere trivia that wasn't meaningfully useful to bellicheck or the patriots or that it wasn't technically cheating"

 

[ampere]

What do you think about Spygate, Stinky?

 

[spyder_ur]

Anyone have a good live blog or twitter handle/hashtag of someone in the courtroom?

 

[bionic77]

What do you think about Spygate, Stinky?

I can't speak for Stinkles but for me it was obviously not a big deal when the commissioner immediately destroys all evidence and doesn't allow for any further investigation of the matter.

Oh wait, but this is the guy who has it in for the Pats right?

I get so confused with all of the stories coming out of Foxboro.

 

[DrForester]

That's fair. And I normally get my jimmies rustled by incorrect use of "literal" so let me apologize and rephrase:

"Many people in this thread have sought to diminish Spygate as an irrelevance or mere trivia that wasn't meaningfully useful to bellicheck or the patriots or that it wasn't technically cheating"

I think the defensiveness over Spygate is because there is so much misinformation out there that has been spread widely. People think it was a much bigger violation than it was.

 

[bionic77]

I think the defensiveness over Spygate is because there is so much misinformation out there that has been spread widely. People think it was a much bigger violation than it was.

:lol

Pat fans are so hilarious.

Goodells investigation into Spygate, which if we are honest was more of a coverup than an investigation, is taken at face value even though he destroyed all of the evidence so that no independent investigation could take place. But the latest investigation into the Asterisks is not up to the lofty standards in New England where you need video proof along with 3 confessions signed in blood otherwise according to these fans of justice nothing obviously took place!

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I can't speak for Stinkles but for me it was obviously not a big deal when the commissioner immediately destroys all evidence and doesn't allow for any further investigation of the matter.

Oh wait, but this is the guy who has it in for the Pats right?

I get so confused with all of the stories coming out of Foxboro.

you know they showed the tapes to the press, right?

 

[ParityBit]

:lol

Pat fans are so hilarious.

Goodells investigation into Spygate, which if we are honest was more of a coverup than an investigation, is taken at face value even though he destroyed all of the evidence so that no independent investigation could take place. But the latest investigation into the Asterisks is not up to the lofty standards in New England where you need video proof along with 3 confessions signed in blood otherwise according to these fans of justice nothing obviously took place!

Goodell doesn't do independent investigations.

 

[ampere]

I can't speak for Stinkles but for me it was obviously not a big deal when the commissioner immediately destroys all evidence and doesn't allow for any further investigation of the matter.

Oh wait, but this is the guy who has it in for the Pats right?

I get so confused with all of the stories coming out of Foxboro.

Pretty sure the nude Tom Brady shower footage on those tapes was private and should not have been released to the public.

 

[Tawpgun]

I recall reading that (while the tapes no longer exist) their contents were shown to the press or something.

I'm at work/on mobile so maybe someone can double check this for me.

But I will add, the jets coach that ratted the pats out to the nfl has said he mainly just wanted them out of some area in their stadium and that he didn't know they would be punished so severely or something like that

 

[KingBroly]

Goodell doesn't do independent investigations.

To Goodell, it was, because he didn't investigate it himself.

 

[DrForester]

:lol

Pat fans are so hilarious.

Goodells investigation into Spygate, which if we are honest was more of a coverup than an investigation, is taken at face value even though he destroyed all of the evidence so that no independent investigation could take place. But the latest investigation into the Asterisks is not up to the lofty standards in New England where you need video proof along with 3 confessions signed in blood otherwise according to these fans of justice nothing obviously took place!

Thanks for proving my point about how wide spread misinformation about Spygate was.

The tapes were shown to the press.

 

[The Albatross]

Many pats fans in this thread have literally denied spygate.

Nobody ever denies spygate. Patriots fans (and other fans/commentators) state what spygate was.

Also, please provide "literal" denials of spygate, or admit that you don't know what the word "literal" means, but you add it to your vocabulary to try to make your points have more impact.

Thanks for proving my point about how wide spread misinformation about Spygate was.

The tapes were shown to the press.

But what about the secret tapes?

WHY WERE THE SECRET TAPES DESTROYED

 

[bionic77]

Thanks for proving my point about how wide spread misinformation about Spygate was.

The tapes were shown to the press.

I could be wrong but I don't think all of the evidence was shown to the press and some of it was destroyed because Goodell thought the issue was closed.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Of course destroying harmless evidence is a perfectly normal thing to do...

 

[Coux]

:lol

Pat fans are so hilarious.

Goodells investigation into Spygate, which if we are honest was more of a coverup than an investigation, is taken at face value even though he destroyed all of the evidence so that no independent investigation could take place. But the latest investigation into the Asterisks is not up to the lofty standards in New England where you need video proof along with 3 confessions signed in blood otherwise according to these fans of justice nothing obviously took place!

So why now? Why get so firm when the evidence isn't as "damning" as the evidence for spygate? Maybe the only difference now is Goodell's track record of fines and punishment is being called into question, given the press over his recent actions with domestic violence with players.

To me, this is the cost of trying to open the NFL to a greater fanbase and trying to advertise the league as a family friendly thing. He succeeded, but there's a lot that comes with it, specifically the press from being more high profile. He could sweep a lot of dirty laundry under the rug before. Even didn't cave when Sen. Arlen Specter called him out over spygate.

Maybe it was a coverup that benefited everyone, and their collective interests. I don't think Goodell would've stuck his neck out for just the Pats, do you? There was perhaps something larger at stake, something that would have opened the door to a wider investigation of teams league wide, and he wanted to avoid that. Maybe started playing his "sanctity of the league" card well before deflategate.

 

[LifEndz]

Thanks for proving my point about how wide spread misinformation about Spygate was.

The tapes were shown to the press.

Wait...really? That's literally the first time I've ever heard that. I always thought Goodell saw them in private and had them destroyed so no one else could see them.

 

[hom3land]

I could be wrong but I don't think all of the evidence was shown to the press and some of it was destroyed because Goodell thought the issue was closed.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Of course destroying harmless evidence is a perfectly normal thing to do...

From what I remember, the videos had alot of creeper video of cheerleaders, which was a reason why they were destroyed.

 

[Tawpgun]

From what I remember, the videos had alot of creeper video of cheerleaders, which was a reason why they were destroyed.

Wait is this true? Lmao

 

[BobLoblaw]

From what I remember, the videos had alot of creeper video of cheerleaders, which was a reason why they were destroyed.

I read this too. Lot of cheerleader crotch shots or something. It may have been in this very thread though.

 

[Quotient]

Wait...really? That's literally the first time I've ever heard that. I always thought Goodell saw them in private and had them destroyed so no one else could see them.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/bob-glauber/spygate-tapes-hardly-a-must-see-1.532081

In a Patriots-Dolphins game in 2000, the tape shows a Dolphins assistant flashing signals from the sideline. On one, he extends his right arm and moves it down by his side three times. On another, he gives a thumbs-up sign with both hands, and then with his right arm acts as if he's hammering an imaginary nail.

EDIT: If i remember correctly a fox sports reporter has a copy of a tape, i don't know how he got a copy.

EDIT2: Apparently Jay Glazer has a copy of the tapes according to deadspin

Glazer has noted this to Deadspin already, but it's worth repeating: The Spygate tape starts out with the Pats mystery cameraman ogling tits before spying on the other team. When Glazer got the tape, "I jumped up to God and said, 'Thank you, my best friend God almighty in heaven!' The crazy thing is, in the first part of the tape, you're watching, and it's nothing but, like, tits and ass. For a while he's zooming in on the Philadelphia Eagles cheerleaders, or the Jets City dancers. Then, all of a sudden, boom, it clicks over.
Arlen Specter was trying to convince me to give him my copy, because I'm the only one with it. And I said no. And they were telling me that they would give me something bigger. And I said, 'What could you possibly give me?' I knew there was nothing. They're full of shit."

 

[hom3land]

Wait is this true? Lmao

Here you go

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...p-close-chargers-cheerleader-article-1.332672

 

[bionic77]

From what I remember, the videos had alot of creeper video of cheerleaders, which was a reason why they were destroyed.

While it is supposedly true the Patriots videographer was creeping on cheerleaders (I really the Chargers cheerleaders for some reason) I don't think that is the real or official reason that they were destroyed.

edit: beaten badly.

 

[ParityBit]

While it is supposedly true the Patriots videographer was creeping on cheerleaders (I really the Chargers cheerleaders for some reason) I don't think that is the real or official reason that they were destroyed.

edit: beaten badly.

I.e. Not what you want to hear. More than a few reports have said the same thing as to why they were destroyed. Because the NFL would be in hot water for harassment.

This is why initial reports are so bad and need to be vetted. Just like the FALSE report by Mort that 11 of the 12 balls were 2+ PSI under. Convenient there was no report of 3 of the 4 Colt balls were under.

BTW, anyone care to comment on that one? Still waiting...

 

[LyleLanley]

For those who are interested @PPVSRB is tweeting from within the courtroom.

Seems like the judge is looking for direct evidence linking Brady to the ball deflating.

Berman: I’m trying to figure out what is the direct evidence that implicates Mr. Brady in that deflation…in that bathroom…on Jan. 18

Berman: Turns out Mr. Brady did better with higher inflated balls than underinflated balls. You might say he got no competitive advantage

 

[The Albatross]

Holy shit this judge sounds like a pats fan. Eg, impartial and brilliant.

(I reserve the right to take this opinion back)

 

[ParityBit]

Wow, Berman .... He is tough

 

[Deku Tree]

Berman: Turns out Mr. Brady did better with higher inflated balls than underinflated balls. You might say he got no competitive advantage

Are there statistics on that in any of the reports that have come out?

 

[LyleLanley]

Berman: I don't know what to make of that finding Tom Brady was at least generally aware of the activities of" Mcnally, Jastremski.
...
@PPVSRB Nash: Brady's explanations were "not worthy of belief, and Mr Brady’s failure to cooperate, leads to inference of his involvement."

Nash: "Under the legal standard you could not possibily say the conclusion in the commissioner's decision doesn’t have a basis in" CBA.

Berman: "No, I'm not saying that."

.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Berman: Turns out Mr. Brady did better with higher inflated balls than underinflated balls. You might say he got no competitive advantage

Are there statistics on that in any of the reports that have come out?

Yes, he had better stats in the second half of the AFC game when compared to the first half having under-inflated balls.

While that's a sample size of jack and shit, it's the only sample size they are going to have for this entire thing.