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[Femmeworth]

So one version is more definitive than the other?

Words can have more than one definition, so why can't video games?

Spoiler

I'm not being serious.

 

[Kinthalis]

You people ar emissing the forest for the trees!

"unlocked" framerate? Does that mean trippled buffer Vsync (more latency) or no vsync? (screen tearing).

Not that I'd ever play this game again, certinaly not ona console, but inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Is there an instance in which a 60FPS refreshrate has made a real time rendered game worse?

Some people suffer from motion sickness and it gets worse at higher framerates.

/not me

 

[ebullientprism]

30FPS will Always Deliver Better Story-Telling than 60FPS in Games – Heres Why
I am of course making quite a bold claim and the burden of proof lies with me. One which i am more than willing to shoulder. Let me begin by saying that the minimum limit that our brain needs to perceive moving frames as a seamless entity ( a video) is 24 Frames Per Second. This is one of the reason 99% of Movies are shot at 24 FPS. Though this was originally due to Sound Hardware limitation of Old Cinema, it has now become the Cinematic Standard. The 24 fps of the Cinema Industry is roughly equivalent to the 30 fps standard of the Gaming Industry. When you see a video shot at 24 fps / 30 fps there are holes to fill and your brain automatically does this by literally creating stuff out of your imagination : also known as movie magic. The More frames you increase, the less you brain fills in, the less the “magic”.
​

Amazing post. ​

 

[UnrealEck]

30 fps will always be better than 60 fps for cinematic feels yada yada

 

[Melchiah]

I don't think we'll see anything that major. Prolly like a 900p v 1080p difference.

I can't imagine Bungie doing that to their Xbox fans.

If it does happen though... Well, I guess get ready for GAF to crash.

Why shouldn't both versions be made to take advantage of the hardware available? Screwing over the PS4 users just for the sake of Xbox fans' hurt feelings would be worse, as that means one of the platforms was shackled powerwise. That didn't happen with multiplatforms in the PS2 era, when the Xbox versions were better, so why now when the tables have been turned?

 

[derwalde]

As someone who owns both, and is an Xbox fan:

If you have an Xbox and you are reading this thread, don't worry, you have a great console that will have great games that will give you great memories with your buddies. The technical disparity between the consoles won't disappear, and its going to take some time before it really "gets better," but you didn't make the wrong purchase or a bad purchase. You got the console you wanted-a great one, and should enjoy it!

textbook buyers remorse.

 

[kadotsu]

Well, I immediately think of Shadow of the Colossus and that they didn't go with 60 FPS for the HD edition because the game was not designed with that in mind. Particularly the animations.

SotC HD is 30 FPS. But yes you reminded me that some canned animations do suffer when they are rendered at 60FPS but keyframes are locked at 30 (Bioshock PC was particularly awful about this).

Tomb Raider PC is great in 60FPS and the vast majority of games look and more importantly control better when the framerate is higher.

 

[Alpende]

textbook buyers remorse.

Hehe. Justifying his purchase.

 

[Cheech]

This is not going to be a mistake that MS makes again.

Gonna be a long gen for them. Sales seem ok now, but I wouldn't be surprised if December ends up being the closest month in sales for them for the entirety of the generation.

What drives me (and all 360 -> PS4 owners, I'm guessing) insane is you just know they cheaped out on the SOC for that stupid ass Kinect that NOBODY is using. They launched that thing with no compelling software, and the voice control is straight up broken.

I'm getting off tangent, but every time I see one of these threads I wish I could fire Don Mattrick myself.

 

[EagleEyes]

XB1

PS4

I know which version I'm getting!

Spoiler

None

Who in the world is this woman???????

 

[KKRT00]

45 pages? Seriously?
And about topic, i really doubt its 50-60fps situation. We heard too many times from devs that game runs near constant 60fps, when it run mostly at 40s.

 

[GHG]

30FPS will Always Deliver Better Story-Telling than 60FPS in Games – Heres Why


All the peeps of the Gaming World have been going crazy over 30 FPS and 60 FPS standards this last year. From 60fps/1080p being thought the new Next Gen standard to Ryse downgrades. But there a point many people are missing, one which i hope to shed some light on today, the point that why 30 FPS cant and shouldn’t ever be replaced with 60fps.

30fps vs 60fps – The Magic of Story Telling Lies in Lower FPS, 30 FPS will always deliver a more “Cinematic” Experience than 60FPS.

I am of course making quite a bold claim and the burden of proof lies with me. One which i am more than willing to shoulder. Let me begin by saying that the minimum limit that our brain needs to perceive moving frames as a seamless entity ( a video) is 24 Frames Per Second. This is one of the reason 99% of Movies are shot at 24 FPS. Though this was originally due to Sound Hardware limitation of Old Cinema, it has now become the Cinematic Standard. The 24 fps of the Cinema Industry is roughly equivalent to the 30 fps standard of the Gaming Industry. When you see a video shot at 24 fps / 30 fps there are holes to fill and your brain automatically does this by literally creating stuff out of your imagination : also known as movie magic. The More frames you increase, the less you brain fills in, the less the “magic”.


Proof of Concept: Hobbit 24 FPS vs 48 FPS analogy to the 30FPS vs 60FPS Gaming Standard

So, Notice how the 48FPS video looks, Sped Up, Weird and almost too Real (in a Bad Way) ? That is called the Soap Opera Effect. Because we grew up in a world where reality tv and soap operas were shot at a higher FPS our brains are now hard wired to associate mundane reality with Higher FPS. And i think you can see now what i meant by our brain filling in the gaps at lower FPS. The Original trailer looks magical and truly “Cinematic”. Of course you might be one of the minority who actually like the sped up, but in my opinion that is probably because of the Novelty Value.

30fps vs 60fps

The more Frames Per Second we increase in our Gaming Standards the less “Magical” they will feel.
I remember when playing Alan Wake (at 30fps) that it felt unbelievably like a movie to me, the sudden attacks of darkness and the way everything was moving about, i wonder if the magic would have been there with 60FPS. If i could clearly see how everything moved – probably not. Likewise in Cinema the Smokes and Mirrors fall away with increased fps – and story telling is all about the illusion. Of course some games would actually benefit from higher frames per second like Racing Games and Fighting Games (Tekken) but Games in which story telling is a main part would do better with the 30FPS Standard.

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/​

can you people finally drop this "60fps is better" nonsense

Hahaha. Someone needs to email/tweet this to Major Nelson.

Lots of material there that he'll find useful.

 

[Tigermask44]

Soooo remote play on vita = xbone

 

[Gangxxter]

Well, I immediately think of Shadow of the Colossus and that they didn't go with 60 FPS for HD edition because the game was not designed with that in mind. Particularly the animations.

This has technical reasons because otherwise the complete animation system, timing etc. would be broken. They would had to rewrite significant parts of the engine (and recreate most of the animations) in order to make it run at 60 fps and I guess it was just not worth it to invest money in that work.
That's also the reason GTA San Andreas has to be locked to 30 fps on PC. You could unlock the framerate but then the timing in cutscenes would be way off, animations would be too fast etc.

A good game engine is developed independent from the framerate it is played in the end. It's true, old games which were only released on a single platform with a fixed hardware were often designed to run on a locked framerate (15 fps, 30 fps, etc.) because it is easier and cheaper to develop games like that. PC games have never been developed like that because of the many hardware configurations.

So, to answer your initial question: yes, Tomb Raider was designed with 60 fps (actually any framerate) in mind because it's multiplatform.

 

[Oakey]

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I don''t think that 30FPS are better than 60 for games like this, but I think its better to go 1080p 30FPS than 720p 60FPS.

 

[Femmeworth]

SotC HD is 30 FPS. But yes you reminded me that some canned animations do suffer when they are rendered at 60FPS but keyframes are locked at 30 (Bioshock PC was particularly awful about this).

Tomb Raider PC is great in 60FPS and the vast majority of games look and more importantly control better when the framerate is higher.

I'm not trying to suggest 30 FPS is inherently better or anything, just to clear that up. I am just curious if switching to 60 FPS is always the better move.

This has technical reasons because otherwise the complete animation system, timing etc. would be broken. They would had to rewrite significant parts of the engine (and recreate most of the animations) in order to make it run at 60 fps and I guess it was just not worth it to invest money in that work.
That's also the reason GTA San Andreas has to be locked to 30 fps on PC. You could unlock the framerate but then the timing in cutscenes would be way off, animations would be too fast etc.

A good game engine is developed independent from the framerate it is played in the end. It's true, old games which were only released on a single platform with a fixed hardware were often designed to run on a locked framerate (15 fps, 30 fps, etc.) because it is easier and cheaper to develop games like that. PC games have never been developed like that because of the many hardware configurations.

So, to answer your initial question: yes, Tomb Raider was designed with 60 fps (actually any framerate) in mind because it's multiplatform.

I understand that on some level, but I figured in this case the game would be more geared for console limitations.

 

[Kysen]

Whelp I guess I take back all my negative comments about this game. 60fps is definitely a step up from the last console release and puts it on par with my current PC version. Will wait for a price drop before picking this up again.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Well, I immediately think of Shadow of the Colossus and that they didn't go with 60 FPS for the HD edition because the game was not designed with that in mind. Particularly the animations.

If you're asking if the game looks fluid in 60 fps, yes it does.

 

[Pwn]

You know what these mean.

 

[TAJ]

Kinect is the reason for the price difference, but the reason for the performance difference is TV, TV, TV, sports, sports, sports.

 

[Pjsprojects]

Gonna laugh if the DF report shows the Xbone version drops below 30fps.
The devs have clearly tried to max both versions but that over priced M$ box is simply not up to it.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

Just purchased the PS4 Digipak version for £35 at Tesco Direct. If you'd like to do the same, use TDX-HQ9T as the coupon code.

 

[WinFonda]

When you see a video shot at 24 fps / 30 fps there are holes to fill and your brain automatically does this by literally creating stuff out of your imagination : also known as movie magic. The More frames you increase, the less you brain fills in, the less the “magic”.

Did you know? Based on frame rate data, Xbox One is scientifically proven to be a more magical experience. It's also better for little Timmy's imagination. #majorfunfacts

 

[dragonbane]

Native 1080p probably kills the One with dat ESRAM.

 

[bombshell]

On IGN now too:

Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition Runs at 60fps on PS4 - Supposedly not the case on Xbox One.

 

[dollartaco]

Did you know? Based on frame rate data, Xbox One is scientifically proven to be a more magical experience. It's also better for little Timmy's imagination. #majorfunfacts

Xbox One: Use your imagination?

 

[RibbedHero]

Eh, I actually prefer 30fps. I actually wish they'd add some chromatic aberration and reduce the framerate to 24fps.

 

[R_Deckard]

Jesus.
Frame rate analysis doesn't lie. Bias does. This reeks of "my copy is fine".

To be fair he is right, I have played and completed Ryse and at no point do you feel the FPS drops to anything noticeable, Not true of BF4 in Conquest Matches on X1 (and less so on PS4) where you can feel the drop.

That Said even though we knew if this game could run 1080/30 solid on X1 then it had to perform nearer twice that on PS4 bears true (as does AC4 being able to run 900p/60 or maybe even 1080/60 on PS4, but sales win the day I guess).

A good thing that Square have left it As IS but would be interesting to see if the X1 is unlocked or Locked 30. I look forward to the DF H2H!!

 

[DieH@rd]

Kinect is the reason for the price difference, but the reason for the performance difference is TV, TV, TV, sports, sports, sports.

Performance problems on Xbone come from weaker GPU, higher OS overhead, higher API overhead and small framebuffer. Sadly, MS decided to ask 100$ more for that kind of gaming hardware.

 

[kadotsu]

I'm not trying to suggest 30 FPS is inherently better, just to clear that up. I am just curious if switching to 60 FPS is always the better move.

There are artistic and possibly technical reasons. If you actually want to emulate the celluloid movie experience you might go for a lower framerate. But you also have to add very smart motion blur and use a downsampled frame. And I've never seen a game go for it just for artistic reasons.

If you go 60FPS you have to go all the way. Animations should be 60FPS (or interpolated) and any prerendered footage should have the same framerate.

IMO a game always plays better in 60FPS all other things being equal.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Major Nelson's fun fact: did you know that the Xbox One version of Tomb Raider increases framerate by %50, while the PS4 version has drops?

 

[goonergaz]

So one version is more definitive than the other?

 

[BruiserBear]

This is not going to be a mistake that MS makes again.

Gonna be a long gen for them. Sales seem ok now, but I wouldn't be surprised if December ends up being the closest month in sales for them for the entirety of the generation.

What drives me (and all 360 -> PS4 owners, I'm guessing) insane is you just know they cheaped out on the SOC for that stupid ass Kinect that NOBODY is using. They launched that thing with no compelling software, and the voice control is straight up broken.

I'm getting off tangent, but every time I see one of these threads I wish I could fire Don Mattrick myself.

I get the feeling they locked down their hardware earlier than they had to, because I don't believe the cost of Kinect alone explains things. If you remove Kinect everyone assumes their console will still cost $400, but the power gap still remains even at an equal price point.

I don't agree the voice control is broken, but I still don't think Kinect is a big deal. It wasn't worth gimping your console over it, that much is clear.

 

[Chobel]

45 pages? Seriously?
And about topic, i really doubt its 50-60fps situation. We heard too many times from devs that game runs near constant 60fps, when it run mostly at 40s.

You expected less than 45 pages?
Also 60fps come from the devs and the people who played it, like EatChildren and many others, all said it's 60fps

 

[bryehn]

I really like the Xbox one so far, but man, no secret sauce on earth will make up for this power disparity. Looking forward to getting a PS4 in the spring.

 

[Stone Ocean]

45 pages? Seriously?
And about topic, i really doubt its 50-60fps situation. We heard too many times from devs that game runs near constant 60fps, when it run mostly at 40s.

We're not hearing this from devs who are trying to sell us something.

There's a massive difference.

 

[boredandlazy]

On IGN now too:

Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition Runs at 60fps on PS4 - Supposedly not the case on Xbox One.

Doesn't matter if your PS4 catches on fire whilst corrupting your saves.

 

[Jack cw]

Eh, I actually prefer 30fps. I actually wish they'd add some chromatic aberration and reduce the framerate to 24fps.

 

[driver116]

Brilliant news for the PS4.

 

[Projectjustice]

Wow and people are excited for these consoles.

 

[Corleth the Fey]

45 pages? Seriously?
And about topic, i really doubt its 50-60fps situation. We heard too many times from devs that game runs near constant 60fps, when it run mostly at 40s.

Thread moaning and an inability to read an OP? Good show.

It's not the devs stating it's 60 fps on the PS4.

 

[Femmeworth]

There are artistic and possibly technical reasons. If you actually want to emulate the celluloid movie experience you might go for a lower framerate. But you also have to add very smart motion blur and use a downsampled frame. And I've never seen a game go for it just for artistic reasons.

If you go 60FPS you have to go all the way. Animations should be 60FPS (or interpolated) and any prerendered footage should have the same framerate.

IMO a game always plays better in 60FPS all other things being equal.

Donkey Kong Country Returns didn't follow this, which was jarring to say the least.

I would agree that 60 FPS is almost always better.

 

[EatChildren]

On IGN now too:

Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition Runs at 60fps on PS4 - Supposedly not the case on Xbox One.

Eurogamer and IGN. It'll be fun if I'm wrong.

 

[KMS]

Oh my...

I mean... How technically demanding is this game? What would happen with a game like, say, The Witcher 3? If they shoot for RES/FPS parity (I think I read they are aiming for parity), how different will the IQ be then?

How much parity is there in the specs? Also it's now known that you can get more out of the PS4's cpu than the XBO's as well for those that missed it.

PS4: 1.84TF GPU ( 18 CUs)
PS4: 1152 Shaders
PS4: 72 Texture units
PS4: 32 ROPS
PS4: 8 ACE/64 queues
8gb GDDR5 @ 176gb/s
Verses
Xbone: 1.31 TF GPU (12 CUs)(10% Kinect reserved)=1.18 TF for games
Xbone: 768 Shaders
Xbone: 48 Texture units
Xbone: 16 ROPS
Xbone: 2 ACE/ 16 queues
8gb DDR3 @ 69gb/s+ 32MB ESRAM @109gb/s (10% Kinect reserved)

 

[GHG]

Eh, I actually prefer 30fps. I actually wish they'd add some chromatic aberration and reduce the framerate to 24fps.

Just use your imagination son. There are enough missing frames to be able to do so.

 

[massivekettle]

Were threads back in the Xbox/PS2 generation 40-50 pages long as well, when discussing the power disparity between the two consoles in a specific game?

 

[stryke]

To be fair he is right, I have played and completed Ryse and at no point do you feel the FPS drops to anything noticeable,

Just because you can't recognise or feel a drop doesn't mean other people can't.

 

[Ouroboros]

DEFINITIVE!