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Toonami |MarApr17| Brought to you by Arby's and Old Spice
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Hellwarden
Member
Refresh my memory, what does she do that's stupid?
My only complaint about that comes from after, during the draw down.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
If there's an unedited version, I haven't seen it anywhere. Guess it got lost in the fire.
She doesn't do anything stupid. It's what Naruto didn't do afterwards was stupid.
you see the guy's brain sticking out of his skull in the manga
Eh, I don't believe that. They set up stuff with Madara before the pain arc even started, and there's still the Sasuke stuff that needed to be resolved.
Nah. It felt like
the end of part 2
Like we should have gotten another timeskip after it was over
Well, not the Pain arc per se, but I don't think the extended war arc was what he had in mind either. It would've (should've) been the second-to-last or third-to-last arc, at least.
That would've been better too, yeah.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
I don't care for Hinata either so I know that feel.
This I'll agree with. The whole war arc felt rushed, like he wasn't entirely sure where he was going or how to end where he wanted to.
I definitely think
Madara should have been the final villain (outside of the Sasuke confrontation). The Kaguya shit was completely unnecessary.
Though oddly enough, the final battle and aftermath was handled very well IMO. Specifically the anime version. Despite how much the war arc sucked, the last few episodes of the anime did a lot to improve my opinion on Naruto as a whole.
JadedWriter
Member
My reaction to it is here.
I actually like Hinata, but Kishi wrote her horribly.
It took Naruto so fucking long to acknowledge her, it wasn't even right.
That's why I think the war arc was editor interference, it's as if the duel was the planned finale, but what came before wasn't. Pretty much everything aside from Madara and Sasuke got resolved by the end of the Pain arc, including
Naruto's goal of being appreciated by the village! Even the decision on who he'd get together with was resolved in a pretty "this is one of the final arcs" manner, if he hadn't gone and done that stupid
It should've, and I'm pretty sure was intended to, gone from Pain to a "Madara" final boss arc, and then the duel and epilogue. It would've been a pretty conclusive and final end.
The same can be said about 90% of Naruto characters.
JadedWriter
Member
I was actually legit stunned that Shikamaru ended up being the best written character on that show.
Definitely, but I would keep the training arc before the war arc.
Him finally working together with Kurama was a good moment and the Kushina stuff was great. Plus Killer B training Naruto is awesome.
That into Madara and then the final duel and epilogue could have been a really great stretch. But instead, the good stuff is spread out and has a lot of crap in between.
Several people say Jiraiya or Kakashi are the best Naruto characters, but my favorite has always been Shikamaru.
Hellwarden
Member
Shikamaru has a decent character arc in the show.
Most of the characters in Naruto don't change much, if at all.
I think that would be okay if the main story was better.
Agreed,
the Kurama arc would've been a perfect training arc
Shikamaru's the best, but I don't think he could've held up the series on his own. But he should've been part of the central cast, along with Rock Lee, and the whole Sasuke friendship rubbish should've been dropped in favor of Naruto and Shikamaru's.
I'm not sure if Shikamaru would work as well if he was a main protagonist, but whatever the case, Naruto's main characters as-is are a big weakness.
One of my favourite arc imo in shippuden is the story arc with immortal akatsuki's part of it to do with shikamaru
It doesn't help when a lot potential characters got sidelined or wasted
JadedWriter
Member
Azuma's ghost lighting that cigarette is fucking ace, I love that scene. The Kakashi vs Hidan and Kakuzu fight is great too, it's a great arc.
Naruto has the best friendship with Shikamaru cause they're actually friends. With Sasuke Naruto just wants his senpai to notice him and it's not even much of a believable bond, but it just has to get forced down our throats.
Exactly. Naruto's a fine main character in the right context, and having Naruto and Shikamaru playing off each other as the "outgoing idiot" and "calm smart guy" would've been a fantastic main pair.
As I've said before, the most annoying thing about Naruto isn't that it's badly written, but that it had all the pieces in place to be great. It just never happened.
Hellwarden
Member
JadedWriter
Member
That's mostly cause Jiraiya and Kakashi started off good, with Shikamaru it took a bit for him to grow into a great character, now he's pretty much husbando tier.
How long did that take because i remember him being great in the chunin exams
Dr. Chaotix
Member
I think the reasons the Chunin Exams and the Sasuke Retrieval Arcs were my favorite arcs as a kid weren't just because of how well they were structured. It's also most likely due to the fact that the side-characters are far more interesting and fun then the main ones.
I stuck with Naruto because I watched everything when I was younger (even shit I was only mildly okay with) but I fucking hated the main three. All of them were annoying in the most trumped up way imaginable.
I like Naruto as a character far more now than before but there's still a bit too much weighing him down for me to completely be on board with him. He's someone I finally want to like but the bullshit that's getting in the way of that has nothing to do with anyone else, but the circumstances surrounding his own character. Shit like his obsession with Sasuke Sea-Urchin and this newfound "Child of Prophecy" garbage.
Meanwhile, the other two on Team 7 just got worse. There's no helping them now.
I stuck with Naruto because I watched everything when I was younger (even shit I was only mildly okay with) but I fucking hated the main three. All of them were annoying in the most trumped up way imaginable.
I like Naruto as a character far more now than before but there's still a bit too much weighing him down for me to completely be on board with him. He's someone I finally want to like but the bullshit that's getting in the way of that has nothing to do with anyone else, but the circumstances surrounding his own character. Shit like his obsession with Sasuke Sea-Urchin and this newfound "Child of Prophecy" garbage.
Meanwhile, the other two on Team 7 just got worse. There's no helping them now.
Before the chunin exams, Shikamaru was really only characterized as laid-back or lazy. That was the first opportunity to see him in action. At that point his surface-level personality was kinda neat, but he didn't have much emotional growth as an actual believable character until the Immortals arc.
JadedWriter
Member
Yeah pretty much that's when I started liking him. I enjoyed his fight with Temari, I liked that he was actually capable of using his brain and you really can't power creep with him.
Shikamaru had so much respect for Azuma. It's pretty much the only student teacher relationship in the show that rivals Jiraiya's and Naruto's.
Technically before the Forest of Death the only thing we know of Shikamaru is that he is on Ino Pig's team.
Naruto's a fun and maybe even great protagonist when you cut away all the naff with Sasuke and whatnot, yeah.
Agreed that Shikamaru and Hinata should've been the main friend and main girl from the beginning, Naruto's interactions with them were way better than his interactions with Sakura and Sasuke, even in Part 1. Even when he didn't have any development or depth, Shikamaru still played off Naruto better than Sasuke.
edit: And HInata had an actual arc and meaningful interactions with Naruto in Part 1, even if Kishimoto never took full advantage of it. Sakura and Naruto had pretty much nothing beyond that cheap crush.
Agreed that Shikamaru and Hinata should've been the main friend and main girl from the beginning, Naruto's interactions with them were way better than his interactions with Sakura and Sasuke, even in Part 1. Even when he didn't have any development or depth, Shikamaru still played off Naruto better than Sasuke.
edit: And HInata had an actual arc and meaningful interactions with Naruto in Part 1, even if Kishimoto never took full advantage of it. Sakura and Naruto had pretty much nothing beyond that cheap crush.
Too bad the fights turn into chakra level bullshits with some gems here and there
Dr. Chaotix
Member
I remember him having a few introspective moments that constituted an actual believable character far before the Immortals Arc. He got even more substantial growth in that arc, sure, but I liked the structure of what happened with him before a bit more.
I suppose I found it more impressive how Kishimoto was able to weave his development into the proceedings without making the general focus of the arc directly something that was only about him. Granted, the Immortals Arc being about Shikamaru's focus isn't an issue at all. I rather admire that decision but something about his earlier set-up and follow-through kind of fascinated me.
Reading his introduction in the manga, it's almost like he accidently became important.
Don't get me wrong, I still liked him a lot in Part 1, and so I was very pleased to see him get a spotlight in a generally well executed arc that focused on him.
I think we can all agree that Sasuke is the show's biggest problem. And it sucks, because he could have been great. Ideally, he would be the perfect blend of Killua and Kurapika. He would have the qualities of a believable friendship like Gon and Killua, and the tragic backstory and revenge aspects of Kurapika. That's pretty much what he was going for. All the pieces were there, but unlike those two characters, the execution wasn't.
Sasuke needed to be a character that I rooted for. Him going down a darker path for revenge needed to be something I didn't agree with, but also something where I understood where he was coming from. The eventual battle of ideals between him and Naruto could have been really heartbreaking stuff.
Sasuke needed to be a character that I rooted for. Him going down a darker path for revenge needed to be something I didn't agree with, but also something where I understood where he was coming from. The eventual battle of ideals between him and Naruto could have been really heartbreaking stuff.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Naruto as a character has his own set of problems, but I agree that his biggest flaw was blown up in size solely due to Sasuke.
And then the manga about ninjas reached the point where it stopped being about ninjas.
And then the manga about ninjas reached the point where it stopped being about ninjas.
That would have fit pretty well and would have been damn interesting considering where the series ended.
Hellwarden
Member
Naruto falls into that common shonen trap of having every arc bigger than the last. Needlessly expanding out the scope before establishing the fundamentals well.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Neji would have been a better rival for Naruto and it would have completely unique because
in the end, Neji was fucking right.
Neji as a rival also would have made the Hinata sub-plot a but more interesting.
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