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Toonami |MayJun17| WE ARE ROBOTS
- Thread starter Seda
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Good news all around today. Learned that my Wii U isn't busted, just the power supply, which is pretty cheap on Amazon. Reorganized my bedroom and played Diablo III with a friend. They did a good job consolizing the game I think, though the story is naif and a lot of your choices in character build just plain don't matter. Also got my copy of FF III back so I can finish that up and move on to IV. Now I come home and MH is coming to the Switch.
Also my friend had a bunch of leftover baking supplies from a company cookie bake and gave me what he had left. 9 pounds of premium bittersweet chocolate chips, 10 pounds of King Arthur Flour and 3 Pounds of Baking Soda. Two of those things I use in large quantities...and Nine pounds of really good chocolate chips!
Time for me to get a new Avatar. This one will go until E3. I'll choose it by the end of the Arms beta tomorrow night.
1. Must be formatted properly.
2. Can't get me banned.
3. Best submission wins.
Also my friend had a bunch of leftover baking supplies from a company cookie bake and gave me what he had left. 9 pounds of premium bittersweet chocolate chips, 10 pounds of King Arthur Flour and 3 Pounds of Baking Soda. Two of those things I use in large quantities...and Nine pounds of really good chocolate chips!
Time for me to get a new Avatar. This one will go until E3. I'll choose it by the end of the Arms beta tomorrow night.
1. Must be formatted properly.
2. Can't get me banned.
3. Best submission wins.
Hellwarden
Member
Generator Rex actually wasn't half-bad. I remember it seemed like it was going for an older audience in comparison to Ben 10 and the few other shows on CN at the time. I remember the show had a real annoying habit of seemingly killing off villains, only for the villains to show up later totally fine.
I agree the Ashi and Jack felt a bit.. odd. Mostly because Ashi looked past what happened to her "sisters" very fast, and sided with the man who killed them pretty quickly. A few more montages of them getting to chill together would have helped solidify their relationship a bit more.
I appreciate how they were brought together by similar hard lives, and that would help speed things along. But in the world of Jack, I think something more otherworldly would have dealt with the situation better. Like they could have both been captured, and thrust into a fantasy world, where they are made to act as a family... only to find out it's not true, and return to the real, horrible world.
Really, undoing Aku's Evil, after it forged a world that Jack had fought through... it's a bit heavier than Android Saga Trunks. Trunks was fighting in a world with like... a handful of people still alive. Aku's reign still left loads of civilizations, people still had secret parties, etc... Scotsman even got to have an army of girls. That's... not as bleak a world as it could have been!
I find it funny how I still see the DVDs for it in "Five and Below"... Like... who'd actually buy it?
I appreciate how they were brought together by similar hard lives, and that would help speed things along. But in the world of Jack, I think something more otherworldly would have dealt with the situation better. Like they could have both been captured, and thrust into a fantasy world, where they are made to act as a family... only to find out it's not true, and return to the real, horrible world.
Really, undoing Aku's Evil, after it forged a world that Jack had fought through... it's a bit heavier than Android Saga Trunks. Trunks was fighting in a world with like... a handful of people still alive. Aku's reign still left loads of civilizations, people still had secret parties, etc... Scotsman even got to have an army of girls. That's... not as bleak a world as it could have been!
Remember The Secret Saturdays?
Remember how it ended faster than Generator Rex?
I find it funny how I still see the DVDs for it in "Five and Below"... Like... who'd actually buy it?
The first few chapters made it seem like Season 5 was going to be a character-based story, but it really wasn't. It was weird.
I would've (among other things) dropped the Jack and Ashi thing, and put the focus of the last few episodes on Jack realizing that the future will be gone if he goes back to the past. It's a real moral dilemma, means a lot more to long-time fans, and fits the samurai "transitory nature of the world" trope that the series has used before.
I would've (among other things) dropped the Jack and Ashi thing, and put the focus of the last few episodes on Jack realizing that the future will be gone if he goes back to the past. It's a real moral dilemma, means a lot more to long-time fans, and fits the samurai "transitory nature of the world" trope that the series has used before.
There's not much of a dilemma there though. It's not really personal as the only real friend he made was the Scotsman and he's dead already--and even if he weren't he'd tell Jack to go back and change history without a second thought. They were two warriors who understood what the final goal was.
Ashi was the first real relationship he had with someone from the future. Everyone else just happened to be someone whose life was made better by Jack while he went around trying to set history right. The Scotsman and Ashi were the only recurring characters the show had.
Jack always knew the future that was Aku would be gone if he succeeded, that was his goal from jump. There's nothing for him to realize, nothing to grapple with there. His goal has been unmaking this future since the end of episode one.
Maybe, but it's not like Jack and Ashi's relationship was especially well-developed. On the other hand, Jack's spent like 50 years in the future, and pretty much everybody he knows and has worked for are from the future, and it's hard to believe that he wouldn't care. His fall is even symbolized by him not going out of his way to save people.
And more importantly, the viewers have an attachment to the Jack's future. That's why they all came back for the big finale, and that's why we had that flashback episode about the people Jack's saved. Having Jack realize the meaning of it all going away would've had a lot more impact.
And more importantly, the viewers have an attachment to the Jack's future. That's why they all came back for the big finale, and that's why we had that flashback episode about the people Jack's saved. Having Jack realize the meaning of it all going away would've had a lot more impact.
Jack had known this future was fleeting from the start though. Hell, he originally didn't want to help the dogs because it wouldn't matter once he got back to the past. All his personal demons were focused on that, on not helping them by ridding the world of Aku. By not changing the future. Him going around and helping people was him trying to chase those demons off. It was doing what he could til he did what had to be done.
Having his big emotional thing be "oh man this future is going to be gone" would have rung hollow. Also I disagree about the Ashi thing, I thought it was perfectly fine for what they wanted to do. Any more wouldn't have been in the vein they were mining and would have taken more episodes.
Yeah, but it'd be just as easy to spin that the other way. Jack dismisses the idea in Episode 1 because he's just arrived and has no attachment to the future, but literally, he's spent fifty years there! It'd the just kind of thing someone like Jack wouldn't realize the true import of until the very end, and it would've been easy to pull off with the attachment the viewers have to the setting, by rewriting the last few episodes (and honestly, the entire season after episode 3). The series not even pausing to think about it rang a lot more hollow to me.
Jack and Ashi's relationship makes sense, but it doesn't really mean anything to me. The execution wasn't convincing, it suffers from the same lack of character development the season does. People say they didn't have enough time to do it right, but they didn't really use what time they did have well either; I'd change a lot about how Season 5 played out.
It was.
That doesn't really work though because, as I've pointed out, the only two relationships he's developed over his entire stay in the future are with the Scotsman and Ashi. In order to get the ending you want to work you'd have to rewrite most of the show. Jack's literally gone out of his way not to form relationships, the only reason the Scotsman is his best friend is because the Scotsman decided they were now besties and Jack liked him.
You don't need personal relationships to make it work. Like, why was it hype when all the people Jack's saved from the last seasons showed up again? Because they do have relationships with Jack, even if they're not literally personal relationships.
I can't see why it wouldn't work with those. You just need to write it right, and I'd rewrite most of Season 5 to take advantage of it.
I can't see why it wouldn't work with those. You just need to write it right, and I'd rewrite most of Season 5 to take advantage of it.
They have a relationship with him, but there's nothing the other way around and that where your idea dies. Without Jack having a reason to give a shit, the idea literally doesn't work. You could make it work with Ashi with another two episodes or so, but without that personal connection there's no internal conflict to be had. There's no reason for him to question what he's doing. Those same people you mention would never have suffered in the first place.
If, outside of Aku, it was a good future, then there'd be something to work with. But it's pretty shitty on every conceivable level. Jack himself points that out when he snaps at Ashi.
If, again, you wanted to use Ashi to get that idea running it would work. But outside of that the entire series would need a rewrite.
But he does have a relationship with them. It's literally the point of the first 3 episodes, that Jack's grown bitter to the point where he doesn't save people anymore.
And Jack's literally the kind of guy who'd be gung-ho about erasing the future until he realizes what that actually means. It's the kind of perspective change the original episodes used all the time. Sure, he didn't give a shit in the actual season 5, but it isn't a far-fetched idea that he would. We never knew for certain whether the future would be erased or not.
And, again, it would make sense to the viewers, because they literally have that attachment to the future. If they didn't, the callbacks and the returning characters would've been meaningless, but they weren't, so.
And it's not like the future is some Warhammer 40k perpetual hell. It's a dystopia, yes, and maybe it would be better if it never existed...but that's not a clear-cut certain thing, and that's the entire point.
(Though honestly, I'd just drop it and have a split timeline. But if we weren't going to, this is how I'd rewrite it.)
And Jack's literally the kind of guy who'd be gung-ho about erasing the future until he realizes what that actually means. It's the kind of perspective change the original episodes used all the time. Sure, he didn't give a shit in the actual season 5, but it isn't a far-fetched idea that he would. We never knew for certain whether the future would be erased or not.
And, again, it would make sense to the viewers, because they literally have that attachment to the future. If they didn't, the callbacks and the returning characters would've been meaningless, but they weren't, so.
And it's not like the future is some Warhammer 40k perpetual hell. It's a dystopia, yes, and maybe it would be better if it never existed...but that's not a clear-cut certain thing, and that's the entire point.
(Though honestly, I'd just drop it and have a split timeline. But if we weren't going to, this is how I'd rewrite it.)
Except the first scene in the show is literally him saving people.
I disagree with your point about Jack not realizing what he's set out to do. He's always seemed pretty clear on it throughout the series. He's literally been seeking to undo the future that is Aku. I don't think you're giving the character enough credit here.
The viewers having an attachment to this future literally does not matter here. We'd need Jack to have an attachment to the future for the idea to work. That's the only way it works. Without some kind of attachment, there's no conflict to be had here. Jack needs some reason to maybe not want to change the future.
Also, yes this future is literally perpetual hell. Aku is literally bringing in criminals from around the universe and giving them free reign on Earth, beyond that he's pointing them towards innocent people trying to live their lives. We've seen Aku do this a couple of times in the series. People were actively trying to escape the Earth in a hope there's something better out there. It's a future run by evil space demon Hitler. I feel like you're downplaying how shit it is.
Ashi could have totally served as a way to show jack that he's made friends in this world, and that he should pause about deleting all of that from existence. As bad as we feel for Ashi disappearing, she really is Jack's first fling EVER. We know there was no one in the past, and we know from his own spoken thoughts that he's never cared about anyone in the modern world like this before.
The fact that he reflected on and faced all this within S5 itself, and that he was so introverted for so much of the time, could have lead his reveal and release of these thoughts in basically any direction.
I do like how the imagery associated with the final moments says more about what happened, than the events themselves. Jack has always been a show that said more with colors, environment, and simple sounds, than with paragraphs and lengthy exposition, and it went out in much the same way.
They always act like his dimension is way past any form of saving,
I could imagine any hope like that being literally blown up before his eyes.
The fact that he reflected on and faced all this within S5 itself, and that he was so introverted for so much of the time, could have lead his reveal and release of these thoughts in basically any direction.
I do like how the imagery associated with the final moments says more about what happened, than the events themselves. Jack has always been a show that said more with colors, environment, and simple sounds, than with paragraphs and lengthy exposition, and it went out in much the same way.
They always act like his dimension is way past any form of saving,
especially later in Super.
Yeah, and then it's followed up by a scene of him seeing Scaramouche destroy a city in the distance, and deciding to drive away.
Jack knows what he'd going to know, but that doesn't mean you can't write it as him not understanding what it would really mean. The show didn't do that, but that doesn't mean it can't.
I'm bringing up the viewers because it would make it work. You're saying that it'd be hollow and not mean anything, but I think it would, both in terms of Jack's character and the viewer reaction. The execution is everything, and there's plenty of room to execute it right, that's my point.
Yes, it's a hot garbage of a future. But it wasn't a grimdark future. There are people who have happy lives, usually because of Jack, and there's more things going on than just depression. And we have personal attachments to those characters, and even if the Scotsman and Ashi were ultimately the only one Jack interacted with multiple times, do you think Jack wouldn't care if he met the Spartans again? Or the Atlanteans? Or the Blind Archers? That he wouldn't care about losing them?
Erasing all that is literally not a clear cut choice. The show treated it like it was, but it didn't have to.
Again, us having an attachment literally does not matter.
You need to give Jack a reason to not want to change the future. Without that instance there's no internal conflict to be had. SAB CA is absolutely right when he says Ashi could have been played that way, but short of rewriting the entire series it's the only way to get there.
For you to get the conflict you want, you need to give Jack a reason to keep this future. Ashi would work because of his personal attachment to her. Whatever reason you give would have to be enough to override him making 1000's of years worth of people's lives infinitely better. You'd have to give him a reason that could override his desire to save his own parents. The best way to get there is a strong emotional attachment on Jack's part, something like love.
You need to give Jack a reason to not want to change the future. Without that instance there's no internal conflict to be had. SAB CA is absolutely right when he says Ashi could have been played that way, but short of rewriting the entire series it's the only way to get there.
For you to get the conflict you want, you need to give Jack a reason to keep this future. Ashi would work because of his personal attachment to her. Whatever reason you give would have to be enough to override him making 1000's of years worth of people's lives infinitely better. You'd have to give him a reason that could override his desire to save his own parents. The best way to get there is a strong emotional attachment on Jack's part, something like love.
It's a pretty greedy thing that Jack deletes 100s of years of history just to have his own sob story Ret'conned, lol.
You could also play with the idea that there is no tangible evidence that he's a great hero, after Aku is banished. Save for him, there is nothing in existence that knows what really happened. It... technically never happened, even.
So much could be done with the results and ramifications of Jack's actions... and we'll probably never see it; But it's not often we get to see the worlds actual ultimate evil killed off. I do wonder if their world will ever properly build robots, since that seems to be an Aku Trademark...
You could also play with the idea that there is no tangible evidence that he's a great hero, after Aku is banished. Save for him, there is nothing in existence that knows what really happened. It... technically never happened, even.
So much could be done with the results and ramifications of Jack's actions... and we'll probably never see it; But it's not often we get to see the worlds actual ultimate evil killed off. I do wonder if their world will ever properly build robots, since that seems to be an Aku Trademark...
Black-Wind
Member
I can see it from both sides but Dubs is right.
You would think he would build a connection and love for this world ... but we're only seeing it from our PoV as viewers if we try to project our feeling onto him.
You would think he would build a connection and love for this world ... but we're only seeing it from our PoV as viewers if we try to project our feeling onto him.
Shrug. I just don't think Season 5 was well written. I'm just trying to point out there's plenty of ways they could've written it better, and one option they could've taken instead. That's all.
edit: Also, since I just realized that I didn't make this clear, I'm not saying Jack should've had a conflict about whether or not to erase the future. But the fact that he didn't care or even stop to think about it at all? It was wasted potential for Jack's character.
edit: Also, since I just realized that I didn't make this clear, I'm not saying Jack should've had a conflict about whether or not to erase the future. But the fact that he didn't care or even stop to think about it at all? It was wasted potential for Jack's character.
I don't think SamJackS5 was poorly written. But I definitely don't think it used all of it's potential.
Which might be OK, since it at least didn't introduce these threads, only to leave them hanging. It kept it's focus, it maintained it's "show, don't tell" style, and it left enough open so that we can speculate and enjoy it for ages to come.
But there's loads more they could have done with an extended season, mini-series, or offshoot.
Which might be OK, since it at least didn't introduce these threads, only to leave them hanging. It kept it's focus, it maintained it's "show, don't tell" style, and it left enough open so that we can speculate and enjoy it for ages to come.
But there's loads more they could have done with an extended season, mini-series, or offshoot.
But it kind of did. The first three episodes specifically set up a character arc for Jack, but...it didn't actually go anywhere. Like, look at Jack's issues with killing humans, he has a major moment of personal conflict, has a flashback, comes to terms with it, and then resolves it, followed by a major moment of return.
By comparison, his angst over being stuck in the future, mad Jack, and the Green Horseman, they got resolved...pretty much arbitrarily. It's the opposite of what the first three episodes promised, like they changed focus. They even dropped the symbolism of mad Jack looking like old Jack, not to mention the symbolism of the Green Horseman. Ashi has similar issues with her arc.
And while they could've done with more episodes, I don't think they used the time they had well. Like, for example, mad Jack and the Green Horseman could've been tied together directly since they relate to the same issue, rather than dealt with separately where they couldn't be fully addressed. Or Ashi fighting that army was cool, but made the thing with her Mom feel pretty random.
It didn't make me really want to... dwell on it though. I would have LIKED more, surely, but given the original tone of the show (where this stuff was already heavier than expected), I'm honestly glad they didn't run too long with it. Nothing over-stayed it's welcome, and I didn't feel like I needed more "Evil Jack" after he showed off so dramatically in the Wolf's den. The fact that fully 100% Jack still had doubts and precautions haunting him felt like a proper way to remind us that he wasn't just a 1-dimensional superhero.
I did feel like Jack's "OH NO I KILLED KIDS!" was a bit too snappy, though.
I do think they could have done more with horseman. As haunting as he was at first, him being a physical manifestation Ashi could also see felt... off. The symbolism of old angry Jack disappeared as Beard Jack became Classic Jack again. The fact Bearded Jack was the one who had the "Be Careful..." illusion tied that ideal up well for me.
Combining Jack's doubts and duty would have worked well. I don't think the Ashi army fight + mother was all that random. For one, her fight paired with Jack's peaceful conflict was one of the most traditional feeling of the episodes for me. Second, Mama swooping in after Ashi should have been drained and at her weakest felt appropriately wicked. A line or 2 about "I lead them to you, to leave you broken, and seeking my embrace once again..." or something would have helped, though.
"Poor" is probably just a bit too strong for how it leaves me feeling. But parts of it definitely could have been tighter.
yeah, like
what future is Jack supposed to be worried about losing exactly?
thousands of years of suffering, slaughter and oppression for everyone on the planet? what kind of asshole would he be to say "nah all that's okay I made 3 friends here, no need to go back and finish what I started"
it's like in Chrono Trigger if the kids were like "yeah but what about the five friends we made in that one dome in the postapocalyptic wasteland? i'm really struggling over whether we should actually go back and defeat Lavos"
given Tokyo Ghoul's ratings, I'm betting posts like these are going to look really silly in retrospect, heh
alright now that my annoyance has gone down a bit
what kind of asshole would Jack be to literally erase everyone he's known for the last 50 years and not give a shit? you really think he has only "3 friends" in the entire world and doesn't care about anybody else? the guy who literally considered suicide over killing one girl that was trying to kill him?
Jack's going to go through that time portal either way, duh, but a normal human being would at least pause to consider that, you know, he's literally going to erase everybody. is that really too much to ask from Jack? like I'm genuinely baffled why you guys think this is a farfetched idea.
and you can't seriously say that having Jack getting some character development and having to say goodbye to everyone before literally erasing them from existence would be somehow a worse ending than having them be erased as an afterthought so that
you can have a dumb last-minute twist with Ashi.
JadedWriter
Member
I don't know if I should actually read HxH straight off from the beginning or just continue reading stuff post anime.
JadedWriter
Member
I'll continue doing what I'm doing then. I kind of want to see more of Togashi's art style but at the same time I don't know which art style the scan sites are running around with for certain parts.
JadedWriter
Member
I mean they did forget to add a certain someone in the beginning, but I guess if it's 1:1 enough what's the point.
Oh yeah, that guy.
I'm not sure what Tokyo Ghoul has to do with it.
But I guess my post was slightly off topic.
Pretty sure it's
Kite
Oh, I thought it was that thing people've been saying lately about picking up the HxH manga since they might move the anime back. Nevermind.
Schadenfreude
Member
Saw some motherfuckers were talking shit about Secret Saturdays and I will not stand for this. The show was a story-driven gem in a coal mine of 15 minute shows. Unfortunately kid's attention spans have been rapidly decreasing for a while now and anything that isnt shown in small 15 minute chunks aint good enough. Truly things like the original Teen Titans, Samurai Jack and even ATLA would never have gotten as far as they did if they premiered nowaday. Secret Saturdays deserved better. Just like Mystery Incorporated, it combined the classic aspects of old cartoons with a slightly more serious overarching plotline.
JadedWriter
Member
Like is it going to make anymore sense or is just going to be Jojo Part 5 all over again?
They're not less popular, but serialized cartoons have to be shown in order, and the networks don't want to put in the extra effort. Plus, frankly, the people who run this stuff have nothing but contempt for children.
ATLA was the first proper serialized cartoon, and the creators had to insist really hard to execs that the network do reruns to make people catch up. That's also why Book 1 had so many stupid episodes, like that canyon thing.
(That's also partly why Toonami used to have so many reruns and marathons, to catch people up to episodes they missed.)
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