Guess what Ford Nation! DAVID MILLER WAS RIGHT!
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Toronto-Age |OT2|
- Thread starter EvilMario
- Start date
Guess what Ford Nation! DAVID MILLER WAS RIGHT!
added_time
Member
Ordering from Banjara tonight! Fuck yeah! Anyone else like indian food?
I could eat nothing but good butter chicken and pakoras and die happy. And gross.
added_time
Member
Butter chicken isn't spicy enough for me.... I'm all about the vindaloo!
SuperSonic1305
Member
Are there any organized hockey leagues open to anyone?
Yeah,it's a quite common scam.
Some jokers tried to sell me some speakers outside of the Futureshop at the Eglinton Town Centre. They started out asking for $500 for a pair of speakers and eventually it went down to $125. They got mad when I drove away.
At least he's finally putting a plan together. Not a good plan but it is a plan. It'll be awesome once all the private sector money starts rolling in like Ford promised.
Consider selling the tickets. It's likely that Boston will crush the Leafs.
My friend is a big Boston fan and I am from New England so that sounds fine
Don't care to much for hockey but since I am in Canada I felt an obligation to go to one!My friend is a big Boston fan and I am from New England so that sounds fine
Carry on then. Lol
I did make a $5 bet when I first came here in September that the Leafs would make the playoffs though, so maybe I am a little conflicted heh. I didn't know much about hockey and they had a 9-2 record at the time so it seemed like a sure win for me! Alas...
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
My friend is a big Boston fan and I am from New England so that sounds fine
I'm a Leafs fan and already getting the lube for that game...we're SO fucked.
added_time
Member
The Leafs have a strong tradition (of getting fan's hopes up at the start of the year before collapsing and missing the playoffs like always!)
You don't want to miss the game where Ron Wilson will be fired between the second and third period.
You know, I've been living around here my entire life and I've never seen the white van speaker scam in Toronto. That's a shame man, sorry that had to happen to you.
I'm going to that too. Lots of sports next week!
Respect. I love how the event has been able to sell out with so little marketing. My body is trembling with excitement.
What section are you in?
132, what about you?
I'm over 30 and have lived in this part of the city my whole life.
I was never talking about "crime in Toronto in general", I was talking about the annex where any violent crime leaves us talking about it for decades.
But if you'd like to continue splitting hairs, go ahead and post some annex-based stats because I'm not about to look them up.
OrangeYouGlad
Banned
Tons. Just google what you're looking for and add your area/town, though you're just at the tail end of regular ice season. You can pick up a summer hockey on ice, but it will be expensive because most arenas convert for ball/inline leagues.
Annex is tough because it's served by two Police Divisions, so the statistics are split.
Here's the '97 data, and those two divisions have both the highest violent crime rate in the city and the lowest violent crime rate in the city.
Code:
VIOLENT CRIME PROPERTY CRIME OTHER CRIME TRAFFIC OFFENSES TOTAL OFFENSES
OFFENCE RATE* CLEAR OFFENCE RATE* CLEAR OFFENCE RATE* CLEAR OFFENCE RATE* CLEAR OFFENCE RATE* CLEAR
14 3,530 2,266 72.1 10,123 6,499 22.0 4,830 3,101 59.9 400 257 99.5 18,883 12,123 42.7
53 919 678 68.4 5,894 4,346 15.6 1,817 1,340 43.1 84 62 98.8 8,714 6,425 27.7Hold, on, let's hop in our time machine and go back 48 hours to the post that started this mini-debate:
Backpedal moar.
My original post was in reaction to the shooting at Dupont, aka the annex.
The news article mentioned that TTC workers are attacked at that rate, and so I said "what happened to the liberal/peaceloving Toronto". We almost had 3 levels of conservative govt, and we have Rob Ford. So no, it's not the same city.
It sounds more like you were reading my post and simply looking for something to make yourself look more ~hardcore Torontonian~ than myself, down to asking for my age.
The news article mentioned that TTC workers are attacked at that rate, and so I said "what happened to the liberal/peaceloving Toronto". We almost had 3 levels of conservative govt, and we have Rob Ford. So no, it's not the same city.
It sounds more like you were reading my post and simply looking for something to make yourself look more ~hardcore Torontonian~ than myself, down to asking for my age.
And no one took issue with the post you made before the one I quoted. (though I would still argue it's silly. It's the sort of naive worldview that is divorced from reality. Crime happens everywhere. Boxing day shooting outside the Eaton Centre, anyone?)
Oh, that's even better that the comment was made in relation to a shooting at a subway station. Please, tell me how the fact that Rob Ford is mayor of this city means that crime is worse?
LMAO @ me trying to look "hardcore" Torontonian! I make no claims to that, I lived in the city for a grand total of 4 of my 28 years.
No, my asking your age should have been self-explanatory, to try and get a baseline for whatever era your nostalgic-tinted perspective considers to have been all sunshine and lollipops when faced with crime statistics to the contrary.
Meh, you're trying too hard to misread everything.
Rob Ford = conservative != liberal
In any case, go get those annex crime statistics since you're very hard pressed on this matter.
Now explain how that has fuck all to do with the city's crime rate, or how a crime story warrants such an absurd political comment.
You're the one who made the assertion that crime is worse now in the city compared to the past. I challenged that statement, and provided evidence to the contrary.
I believe the ball is in your court on that count. You've offered nothing other than "golly shucks, I sure don't remember crime being this bad when I grew up! And I've lived here my whole life, so that makes me right!"
It has to do with my original post... where I was all "omg the city is changing, it's now conservative/more violent/etc".
And no, I'm not going to quote stats because I've lived here long enough to not feel the need to validate everything that I see with wikipedia. I don't owe you anything.
I also don't get where you're coming from. You haven't seen how much things have changed in this city first hand. So much on the TTC has changed (shields, cameras, constables, DWAs) in order to get those crimerates down. However, the fact that more changes are needed (bulletproof glass) shows that things continue to get crazier.
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
Turning this into Leafs thread. Screw those Craphawks! GO LEAFS GOOOOOOOO
wow, I can't believe you keep doubling down on the stupid.
liberals = peaceloving
conservatives = violent
Fuck off with that sort of bullshit.
Except that I never equated them, again. It was simply a list of things changing in Toronto.
If anything's bullshit, it's how you're trying too hard to find reasons to stay angry and not get over it.
I don't know if we need to make this particularly political Boogie, I can see why you'd be invested in crime statistics - but I think all Rinoa is saying is, in her eyes - while there may be less overall crime, it feels as though the city is degrading, what with more conservative politics and violent crime (I don't think she meant conservative politics = violent crime).
Heck, I would even go so far as to say, in the attempt to dissuade violent crime, the atmosphere feels more and more... violent. Seeing all the preventative measures only goes to highlight what it is that is trying to be prevented.
Don't be a disingenuous ass. You're stringing phrases together about it not being a "liberal, peaceloving" city.
Then going "Rob Ford = conservative != liberal"
And finally, in describing how it's "changed" in your eyes, to a "conservative/more violent" city.
You're making the association. At least own up to it.
...of course, none of that matters because YOU'RE WRONG. IT ISN'T BECOMING A MORE VIOLENT CITY. CRIME IS OBJECTIVELY AT LIKE A 20 YEAR LOW.
It would be like me saying after the" year of the gun": "Man, I miss when this was a safe, conservative city. Now that that liberal David Miller is in charge, he's letting the gangs run wild." I would be jumped on for making a bullshit comment, and rightfully so.
Of course, that would be marginally less retarded than you, because at least murders were up that year!
She's the one using political language in the discussion. Not me.
That's nice. Me, I try to base my positions on logic and facts, not just on my "feeling".
I'm the one making strawman arguments? You're the one arguing a more violent city based on nothing more than personal anecdotes!
If we're just going to count each other's fallacies, I have three for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
There is a Canadian-Poli thread now, but I only fear it'll mean more of it will drip into this thread than usual.
I listed what was changing in the city, I didn't say they were the same thing.
I didn't make an association between violence and conservatives, you did.
Have you observed that nobody else made that association? And that nobody else has gone great lengths to take personal offense at what I said?
If situations were switched and it was you who lived here for over 30 years and myself just a few, I'd be extremely wary about discussing how a city has changed.
Back to the argument about Toronto, I get that you're quoting stats about crime rates in Toronto, and it's just "silly" for people to have opinions on where they live. The reality is that these crime rates don't change in a vaccuum, and how safe a city feels involves more than just statistics.
As for the rest, it seems you're not yet aware that I've been ignoring the insults, swearwords and wiki links ever since your very first condescending reply.
As for the rest, it seems you're not yet aware that I've been ignoring the insults, swearwords and wiki links ever since your very first condescending reply.
lol
Strange that you would ignore the wiki links. Since, y'know, I only used them to point out each of your logical fallacies after you seemed to content to dismiss me as using a straw man. Fair's fair, after all.
Have any of you guys got a Vita? According to Near, one of you might, so I suggest you guys check out Tales from Space: Mutant Blobs Attack. It's an $8 platformer on PSN, and made in Toronto by Drinkbox Studios:
You guys check it out, since you partially made it happen:
Trust me, unlike Silicon Knight money, this game is pretty sweet.
You guys check it out, since you partially made it happen:
Trust me, unlike Silicon Knight money, this game is pretty sweet.
BladeWorker
Member
Ok, can I play?
This city was positively grimy in the 80s. The city had attitude. It had crime. Sex drugs rock n roll and all that. It was filthy. Tons more unregulated strip clubs and rub and tugs. Yonge Street south from Bloor to the lake looked as bad as...well, that little stretch between College and Gerrard does now.
It has since pretty much cleaned up its act. To the point where, even in the 90s, television shows had to make the city look dirtier in order to reflect the cities Toronto was intended to portray. We were just too clean, dammit.
Objectively, reported and charged crime statistics have fallen in the city since that time, too, and our population became increasingly diverse. Those two things happening at the same time are, to most sociologists, a phenomenon worth studying. Usually when groups of people of different backgrounds wind up in close proximity, they end up warring. But that's not happened here. Who knew?
All that being said, policywise, this city has had no long-term direction since amalgamation. Before amalgamation, the city was six boroughs, who may or may not have got along, who may or may not have cooperated on things like transit. They could, but usually didn't, plan for themselves, because they were closer to their constituents who, as we're beginning to learn, had vastly different preferences and still do.
Post-amalgamation, politicians fight more than toddlers who never learn how to use their words. That's not unique to Ford, though it does seem to have taken a more acute turn with him, given how and why he was elected (reaction to another mayor) and the platform on which he ran ("respect" for taxpayers; scientifically misguided policy statements). Recall that Lastman found himself in hot water on a near-daily basis for what would come out of his mouth. He managed to insult every ethnic group in this city and he was still elected time after time - and oh, wait, he was the North York guy, too. People across the country still make fun of us for calling in the Army that one time in January.
Miller made a name for himself on purporting to "clean up city hall" (sound familiar?) and then made a name for himself failing to negotiate his way out of a paper bag. TTC strike. Garbage strike. TTC strike redux, on the hottest friggen day of the century. And then there was Transit City! Suddenly, it looked like someone had scored some long-term vision goggles and we might have something that would work.
But it didn't. Transit City was an expensive proposition even to the left-wingers on Council, and set up a plan that didn't account for the needs of small businesses in this city, which have historically paid the highest property and municipal taxes of any major city in (IIRC) Ontario, if not Canada, and among the highest in the western hemisphere. So as wonderful in concept as Transit City was, the way things stood Miller's policies could have bankrupted the city.
So here comes Ford, who may as well have had a cape for all his idiomatic rhetoric.
So what's the difference? Where does this sentiment that Toronto is going downhill come from? From what I can see, it appears that the priority shift that is occurring in this city - the individualist attitude that policies have taken - is in contrast to the more collective policy philosophy of mayors like Miller (and a little like Lastman, and Hall before him.) But that's a political shift that is playing out socially - not a social shift that is playing out politically.
I love this city and I hate the direction in which it's headed, but personally, I'm not conflating the direction in which it's headed and the direction from which it's come. Because to me, it seems as though there hasn't been a real "direction" for the city in years - which, ultimately, is part of our problem today.
I could also make the argument that the attitudes of Torontonians are at least in part driven by how they feel about what is going on federally and provincially too, but it's getting late and that's a thesis for another day.
This city was positively grimy in the 80s. The city had attitude. It had crime. Sex drugs rock n roll and all that. It was filthy. Tons more unregulated strip clubs and rub and tugs. Yonge Street south from Bloor to the lake looked as bad as...well, that little stretch between College and Gerrard does now.
It has since pretty much cleaned up its act. To the point where, even in the 90s, television shows had to make the city look dirtier in order to reflect the cities Toronto was intended to portray. We were just too clean, dammit.
Objectively, reported and charged crime statistics have fallen in the city since that time, too, and our population became increasingly diverse. Those two things happening at the same time are, to most sociologists, a phenomenon worth studying. Usually when groups of people of different backgrounds wind up in close proximity, they end up warring. But that's not happened here. Who knew?
All that being said, policywise, this city has had no long-term direction since amalgamation. Before amalgamation, the city was six boroughs, who may or may not have got along, who may or may not have cooperated on things like transit. They could, but usually didn't, plan for themselves, because they were closer to their constituents who, as we're beginning to learn, had vastly different preferences and still do.
Post-amalgamation, politicians fight more than toddlers who never learn how to use their words. That's not unique to Ford, though it does seem to have taken a more acute turn with him, given how and why he was elected (reaction to another mayor) and the platform on which he ran ("respect" for taxpayers; scientifically misguided policy statements). Recall that Lastman found himself in hot water on a near-daily basis for what would come out of his mouth. He managed to insult every ethnic group in this city and he was still elected time after time - and oh, wait, he was the North York guy, too. People across the country still make fun of us for calling in the Army that one time in January.
Miller made a name for himself on purporting to "clean up city hall" (sound familiar?) and then made a name for himself failing to negotiate his way out of a paper bag. TTC strike. Garbage strike. TTC strike redux, on the hottest friggen day of the century. And then there was Transit City! Suddenly, it looked like someone had scored some long-term vision goggles and we might have something that would work.
But it didn't. Transit City was an expensive proposition even to the left-wingers on Council, and set up a plan that didn't account for the needs of small businesses in this city, which have historically paid the highest property and municipal taxes of any major city in (IIRC) Ontario, if not Canada, and among the highest in the western hemisphere. So as wonderful in concept as Transit City was, the way things stood Miller's policies could have bankrupted the city.
So here comes Ford, who may as well have had a cape for all his idiomatic rhetoric.
So what's the difference? Where does this sentiment that Toronto is going downhill come from? From what I can see, it appears that the priority shift that is occurring in this city - the individualist attitude that policies have taken - is in contrast to the more collective policy philosophy of mayors like Miller (and a little like Lastman, and Hall before him.) But that's a political shift that is playing out socially - not a social shift that is playing out politically.
I love this city and I hate the direction in which it's headed, but personally, I'm not conflating the direction in which it's headed and the direction from which it's come. Because to me, it seems as though there hasn't been a real "direction" for the city in years - which, ultimately, is part of our problem today.
I could also make the argument that the attitudes of Torontonians are at least in part driven by how they feel about what is going on federally and provincially too, but it's getting late and that's a thesis for another day.
