The only things that are meaningless in here are your arguments against me because you've failed to back them up with any form of substance at all.
Tour de France 2012 |OT| 99th edition (June 30rd - July 22nd)
- Thread starter bjaelke
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The only things that are meaningless in here are your arguments against me because you've failed to back them up with any form of substance at all.
Really? That's the best you can do?
So far, I've failed to see anyone who claims to know a lot about cyclying refute any of my arguments at all apart from the obligatory, "This is how cycling is" and "Comparisons between the two sports are meaningless because they are different" and then there are people who are also comparing the sport to stuff like soccer and football.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
You do know that there is a team category as well and that a team does indeed can crowned as the champion in that category, right?
Yes, the main media attention is on the GC winner, but that winner would never win without a team to help them along. If there weren't teams to help carry the work load, the race would be a war of attrition that would leave most of the riders out of the competition at some point.
From that same wiki:
So does Bradley Wiggins or Chris Froome have the best chance of winning this tour?
I understand what he is trying to say, and get his frustration. When i first started following cycling, it pissed me off too. But like every other sports, tons of politics involved.
Elryion, yesterday for example; Wiggins catapulted his teammate in the sprint. He was asked after the race why he didn't go for the spot himself, and he said because they are a team, and he needs to repay his teammates whenever he can.
If you truly a good rider, then you will get a chance at the title down the line.
Wiggins had worked really hard to get here. This years tours favors him because of the long TT stages. Next years is good for Frome, since its Holt. A team must have a strategy. Add much add i like Frome, if the coach suddenly just let's him go of, it will poos Wiggins of and create an internal conflict and the whole team collapses.
Elryion, yesterday for example; Wiggins catapulted his teammate in the sprint. He was asked after the race why he didn't go for the spot himself, and he said because they are a team, and he needs to repay his teammates whenever he can.
If you truly a good rider, then you will get a chance at the title down the line.
Wiggins had worked really hard to get here. This years tours favors him because of the long TT stages. Next years is good for Frome, since its Holt. A team must have a strategy. Add much add i like Frome, if the coach suddenly just let's him go of, it will poos Wiggins of and create an internal conflict and the whole team collapses.
So, without teams, nobody wins and no one will cross the finishing line faster than everyone else at Paris. Is that what you are saying?
If you forget about that one climb, yes Wiggins has the best chance to win the tour because he is one of the best TT riders in the peleton.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
At the start of the race, nearly everyone would have told you Wiggins, but a lot of things can happen throughout the course of a race that can change that. Froome is riding with great form and has looked really strong in the mountains, but Wiggins is still more than two minutes ahead of him. If Froome were on another team, he could have challenged more directly of course, but it would have changed the dynamics of how things played out and what Wiggins and Team Sky would have done as a response.
Of course a few riders would survive to Paris and battle for the win, but the cycling season is a long one and the Tour is just one race. If they hoped to competitively ride in other events, they need to work as a team.
Multiday cycling competitions are much more complex than "first one to the finish wins". Some are going for the overall jersey, others for the mountain jersey, sprint jersey or stage wins. Because of the extreme benefit you get from slipstreaming, lying first is demands much more energy, so you want to stay hidden as long as possible, so that's why you need teammates.if something happens to Wiggins (crash/mechanical troubles), the team would fall back to help him get back to the bunch without using too much energy. In addition to supporting their leader, the other riders of the team may get to go for themselves on stages that suit them. If froome started competing against wiggins, sky would lose the guy that is supposed to chase down mountain attacks and they could jepordize their "sure win".
Their salary is paid by the team and their job is to do whatever makes the team look good, not to promote themselves
Bradley has the experience (6th tour he's riding). Means a lot in cycling. This is Froome's first time riding Tour de France. There's no guarantee he'd be able to take the pressure of wearing the yellow jersey.
You also have to take Sky (sponsor) into consideration. They put a lot(!) of money into this project. I doubt they'd be pleased if the team started gambling with the jersey this late in the race. Rather just to play it save and go with Wiggins - he's the proven rider. Froome will probably get his chance later on. Same with Richie Porte. He also put his own ambitions on hold to ride with Sky.
Finally, someone writes something that makes sense.
I can certainly agree that Froome being on a different team could have changed the dynamics of the current race.
But ultimately, if teamwork is so important in this sport then teams, and not individuals, should be crowned tour champions. If the emphasis on the podium is on the team and not the individual, then we certainly wouldn't have this issue surfacing where Froome would need to be held back just to let Wiggins win because it really wouldn't matter in the end.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Wow! Such bad luck for Cadel. Flat tire at the top of the mountain with team car way behind.
Again, there is a team category which is currently led by Radio Shack and they do get on the podium in Paris to accept the win. But each team has its own strategies and approach to the race with some more interested in stage wins, grabbing the other jerseys and so on. Because those strategies vary so much, and the team composition reflects that, the Yellow Jersey winner isn't often on the same team that is the overall team winner.
Again, there is a team category which is currently led by Radio Shack and they do get on the podium in Paris to accept the win. But each team has its own strategies and approach to the race with some more interested in stage wins, grabbing the other jerseys and so on. Because those strategies vary so much, and the team composition reflects that, the Yellow Jersey winner isn't often on the same team that is the overall team winner.
I don't think he had it on him to win this year. Doesn't seem to have much energy.
There is a classification for overall best team (currently held by Radioshack-Nissan). As everyone has said, there are politics to who goes for what and what the actual goals of each team and sponsor are. Liquigas are pretty much going for putting/keeping Sagan in the green jersey.
That's the the thing, there is more than just having the best overall time. It's obviously the easiest to understand of the contests actually going on during the Tour de France. Teams and riders receive monetary awards on top of their paychecks for wins. So Sagan will be winning a nice win bonus from the race along with his paycheck. Those who help him may be taking a cut of those winnings along with their paycheck.
When you love to race, being the lowest paid cyclist won't stop you from accepting the opportunity to race in the pro peloton in the TdF. Mark Fucking Cavendish is playing water carrier this year. The guy who has had some legendary and iconic sprint wins is relegated to assisting. He is also racing for a different race right now, the olympic games.
Did Cadel get a mechanical and Sky slowed down for him to get back? My feed cut out so I'm wondering what happened. If so, class act from Wiggins. Way better on the bike than off, especially compared to Contador's attack on Schleck years ago.
That's the the thing, there is more than just having the best overall time. It's obviously the easiest to understand of the contests actually going on during the Tour de France. Teams and riders receive monetary awards on top of their paychecks for wins. So Sagan will be winning a nice win bonus from the race along with his paycheck. Those who help him may be taking a cut of those winnings along with their paycheck.
When you love to race, being the lowest paid cyclist won't stop you from accepting the opportunity to race in the pro peloton in the TdF. Mark Fucking Cavendish is playing water carrier this year. The guy who has had some legendary and iconic sprint wins is relegated to assisting. He is also racing for a different race right now, the olympic games.
Did Cadel get a mechanical and Sky slowed down for him to get back? My feed cut out so I'm wondering what happened. If so, class act from Wiggins. Way better on the bike than off, especially compared to Contador's attack on Schleck years ago.
Ok, that all makes sense now. Thanks, guys.
I still don't think I'm wrong to state that this and F1 are similar sports. Plenty of the arguments you guys are making can be made in F1 as well. The only difference is that team orders are disallowed in one and not the other. Plus, despite the outlawing of team orders in F1, you can still sense the constant tension in teams where the drivers are equally matched.
Yeah, entire peleton bar Rolland sat up and waited for Evans.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Agreed. He doesn't seem to have the strength he had in the past, particularly last year.
What the hell is up with all the flat tires. This is insane.
Would be a dick move to attack during a mechanical. You want to win because you're the better rider and not because you're the luckiest one.
Yeah, if someone is throwing shit on the road then that's messed up. Some people.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
No one wants to win the race because of a mechanical problem. (Contador not withstanding I suppose.) You said yourself, it's sportsmanship. That should tell you everything you need to know.
Yeah, A lot of flats and changing bikes on the descent for some reason.
Also, Cadel's out of legs this time around; anyway Bradley's had great form through the year and it's good to see him do well.
have not watched le tour that much during 2009 2010 and 2011. did contandor do something like that?
Team orders have been allowed in F1 since 2010.
Even when they were banned the teams were still instructing drivers to let their teammates through, or would alter their pit/tyre strategies to favor one driver over the other.
The road was very narrow so the support cars were stuck far behind and couldn't get up to help him. With not much of interest happening in the hill and noone dangerous up front it was a nice gesture.
This has been confirmed. Pins. Some people are just plain retarded <___<
I think it not really sportsman like to do that, but hey can you blame alberto for countering an attack of andy schleck and not looking back after he passed him? Also he didnt had a mechanical. He pushed the pedals too hard during gear shifting and his chain got loose.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Such a shitty move on the part of some spectators. Can't believe someone did that. On the other hand, considering my dim outlook on humanity as a whole, I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.
15th of july, 15 years ago this happened
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39oH80
what a ride! doper or not, Ullrich riding up to Andorra is a thing of beauty. The gear he uses is massive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39oH80
what a ride! doper or not, Ullrich riding up to Andorra is a thing of beauty. The gear he uses is massive.
There is a spot for the best team though.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Isn't anyone feeling a little bummed by this year's Tour?
I'm a sucker for mountain, chronos and mountain chronos... this year's way tooo flat for my tastes =(
Luckily La Vuelta is debuting a new col (well, an extension of an old one to be precise) with ramps past the 20%.
I'm a sucker for mountain, chronos and mountain chronos... this year's way tooo flat for my tastes =(
Luckily La Vuelta is debuting a new col (well, an extension of an old one to be precise) with ramps past the 20%.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Oh wow lol.
Do you watch F1? Do you notice how when sometimes the 2nd flute in a team will run ahead of the star in order to provide some slipstream advantadge? It's the same, except unlike engines, athletes get tired. That's why there's a team. Make no mistake, the wiki does not mention the team of the winners, but none of them (well, modern era cycling anyways) would have won without their team.
There used to be a team chrono in the Tour, but Team Once used to win them all in a landslide and since the French hate Spaniards winning "their" competitions the team chrono has faded into obscurity.
edit: beaten, someone explianed and explained it better before lol.
That was a tacky move by whoever the prick was threw that stuff in the road. I hope they catch him and nail him to the wall. Cadel's got to be deflated after how that stage went, but at least he's still got a remote shot at making this stick. I don't see where Team Sky would pop under the pressure unless the tension between Froome and Wiggins finally blows up. Rolland's move was cheeky but I guess he deserves some credit for taking a stab at catching the break. And after Canc left the tour early I'm also not surprised that the slow leaks of news regarding his potentially leaving RSNT have begun.
BMC are having the worst season ever.
salaries of Thor Hushovd, Cadel Evans and Phillipe Gilbert are around $10mill in total and Thor has had a mysterious illness destroying his entire season (couldn't even follow the peloton in Poland), Cadel is in awful form and seems followed by bad luck and Gilbert who was the no.1 cyclist in the world last year winning 15+ races, including 4 classics, and this year he hasn't won a single race (if his wikipedia article is up do date)
salaries of Thor Hushovd, Cadel Evans and Phillipe Gilbert are around $10mill in total and Thor has had a mysterious illness destroying his entire season (couldn't even follow the peloton in Poland), Cadel is in awful form and seems followed by bad luck and Gilbert who was the no.1 cyclist in the world last year winning 15+ races, including 4 classics, and this year he hasn't won a single race (if his wikipedia article is up do date)
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