Trails of Cold Steel (Sen no Kiseki) getting Limited Edition

I have no idea why they decided to divide resources into CS when they are having so much trouble getting SC out the door.

XSEED explained that they didn't have much of a choice in the matter. Falcom approached them with the explicit request that Cold Steel get done so that it would be released while the PS3 and Vita still had an audience in the west. From the sounds of some of the posts made on their forums, it sounded like an 'offer they couldn't refuse', though not quite as threatening.
 
Cold Steel also benefits from lessons that Falcom has learned since the Sky Trilogy about the localizability of their products, probably. CS and CS2 both had pretty quick turnarounds for other Asian languages as I recall. So Falcom has probably done something to make sure that it's easier to get their work done despite the giant scripts, heh.
 
Same here. As bad as i want SC, im just dying for a new Trails game in general.

Yeah same here. I recall being very excited at the prospect of SC then being able to start a new chapter in the saga with CS, but screw it, I just want a new game in the series. CS probably has far more potential sales wise anyway.
 
This merry-go-round just doesn't stop. Tom says SC will "totally" [probably] come first.

Dude, SC is totally coming before Cold Steel. I even double-checked how the two releases are progressing at work today, and we're still 100% on track to release SC well before Cold Steel.

I think that was #2 of your three options. In fact, I bet I know exactly who posted that response, and I can almost guarantee you he completely misread the question. He may have even been drunk. ;)

-Tom
 
Hey, again, just to reiterate, I did say we're "on track" to release SC first.

Doesn't mean it'll stay that way! But as of right now, its chances are looking quite good, I'd say.

-Tom
 
lol

Poor CS, constantly having to deal w/ SC's shit. Can't even have its own threads without them getting hijacked.

It's hardly irrelevant. I'm excited for CS but there's no way I'm playing it before the TitS storyline is concluded.

Probably still buy it day one even if it comes out first though, I'm that desperate for new kiseki
 
And poor Tom is probably never going to make any sort of statement about SC ever again except "we're working on it."

Good. This is a lesson people tend to only learn in a trial-by-fire situation -- making promises to try to calm people down leads to them getting way way way more angry when those promises aren't kept than they would have been if expectations were kept low in the first place. The main reason there's any sense of dissatisfaction around this game's release in the first place is the long litany of hopeful promises (starting with the false-start announcement back in 2010) made about releasing it.
 
Good. This is a lesson people tend to only learn in a trial-by-fire situation -- making promises to try to calm people down leads to them getting way way way more angry when those promises aren't kept than they would have been if expectations were kept low in the first place. The main reason there's any sense of dissatisfaction around this game's release in the first place is the long litany of hopeful promises (starting with the false-start announcement back in 2010) made about releasing it.

Would silence have been preferable? We tried being quiet about the game for a while, and people started bugging us more than ever, fearful it had been canceled.

It really is kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We ultimately resolved that the best course of action was just to be as transparent as possible. You want to know how things are progressing... we'll tell you. We're not making promises, we're just telling you what we know.

What we've really learned from all this is how to handle massive projects in the future. Because this was clearly not us at our most organized. If we could do it all over again, we would absolutely be able to do it more quickly and efficiently, using the lessons we learned from this very lengthy and weirdly harrowing experience.

-Tom
 
Would silence have been preferable? We tried being quiet about the game for a while, and people started bugging us more than ever, fearful it had been canceled.

It really is kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We ultimately resolved that the best course of action was just to be as transparent as possible. You want to know how things are progressing... we'll tell you. We're not making promises, we're just telling you what we know.

What we've really learned from all this is how to handle massive projects in the future. Because this was clearly not us at our most organized. If we could do it all over again, we would absolutely be able to do it more quickly and efficiently, using the lessons we learned from this very lengthy and weirdly harrowing experience.

-Tom


I for one love the transparency and updates. Not only do they put my mind at ease, but I like seeing the challenges and unexpected problems people in game development (or localization in your case) face and the solutions they come up with. I find that really interesting.

I realize I'm just one person, so my feeling don't necessarily represent how to manage the expectations and feelings of a whole fanbase.
 
I for one love the transparency and updates. Not only do they put my mind at ease, but I like seeing the challenges and unexpected problems people in game development (or localization in your case) face and the solutions they come up with. I find that really interesting.

I realize I'm just one person, so my feeling don't necessarily represent how to manage the expectations and feelings of a whole fanbase.

Nah, you're not alone. I agree. I really like reading Hatsuu's updates and the blog posts, and it really gave me a nice look into WHY things have been so messed up, and it's a good explanation.
 
Nah, you're not alone. I agree. I really like reading Hatsuu's updates and the blog posts, and it really gave me a nice look into WHY things have been so messed up, and it's a good explanation.

Having an explanation has really helped me keep my expectations in check. I would be way more anxious if we had a nebulous 2015 date with no updates at all. I'm way more willing to forgive the long localization time knowing what a bear SC has been to get done.
 
Would silence have been preferable? We tried being quiet about the game for a while, and people started bugging us more than ever, fearful it had been canceled.

It really is kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We ultimately resolved that the best course of action was just to be as transparent as possible. You want to know how things are progressing... we'll tell you. We're not making promises, we're just telling you what we know.

What we've really learned from all this is how to handle massive projects in the future. Because this was clearly not us at our most organized. If we could do it all over again, we would absolutely be able to do it more quickly and efficiently, using the lessons we learned from this very lengthy and weirdly harrowing experience.

-Tom

Definitely prefer the transparency. That 3 year silence on SC was a killer. I like understanding the causes of the delays and knowing that you're still trying hard to get the game out to all of us (often ungrateful) Trails fans.
 
Having an explanation has really helped me keep my expectations in check. I would be way more anxious if we had a nebulous 2015 date with no updates at all. I'm way more willing to forgive the long localization time knowing what a bear SC has been to get done.

I agree I just hope translating this game will be worth it for them as I am shocked they even attempted it.
 
This will sound weird but at this point, I'd rather SC didn't release in the same timeframe as Cold Steel, Zestiria, Xenoblade, Cosmic Star Heroine and (possibly) Persona 5.

Of course if nis brings this to europe expect 55 £ minimum price tag...
Gotta love NIS europe for their capability of shitting on their own fanbase
Do we even have a release window?
You might be better off preordering on videogamesplus.ca. You'll be getting it a bit late after release but at least, you can know how much it would cost you.
 
This will sound weird but at this point, I'd rather it didn't release in the same timeframe as Cold Steel, Zestiria, Xenoblade, Cosmic Star Heroine and (possibly) Persona 5.

Yeah, perhaps they should've gone for a Summer release instead.

Oh wait, then it would've clashed with SC...
 
I'm more confused coming out of this thread than I was going in. But I don't really care which game we get first, I'm just happy they're both coming. The LE edition looks nice, I imagine if it did come to Europe NISA Europe's price point would be beyond what I'd be willing to pay :(.
 
I'm more confused coming out of this thread than I was going in. But I don't really care which game we get first, I'm just happy they're both coming. The LE edition looks nice, I imagine if it did come to Europe NISA Europe's price point would be beyond what I'd be willing to pay :(.

The LE on videogamesplus.ca is the same price as the standard edition in Europe.
 
I meant SC, sorry for the ambiguity.

Ah I see, sorry. It would've been much better for SC to come out when it was intended to, the run up to Christmas is packed full of excellent RPG offerings (Cold Steel amongst them). SC takes priority for me by far but I worry that it will suffer from going up against such excellent competition.
 
I'm more confused coming out of this thread than I was going in. But I don't really care which game we get first, I'm just happy they're both coming. The LE edition looks nice, I imagine if it did come to Europe NISA Europe's price point would be beyond what I'd be willing to pay :(.

I can attempt to summarize it for you in an easy to digest fashion.

Legend of Heroes is a long-running RPG series with a ton of branches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Heroes

The sixth entry in the main Legend of Heroes series is three separate 'parts' that are each their own title. Trails in the Sky First Chapter, Second Chapter and 3rd (3rd is an epilogue). The seventh entry is the two games Trails of Zero and Trails of Azure. The eighth entry is Trails of Cold Steel 1 and Trails of Cold Steel 2.

The last Trails game we got, First Chapter, was the latest thing to get localized - Second Chapter is the conclusion to that story, and it is supposedly going to arrive before Cold Steel. With the release of Cold Steel, XSEED is skipping 3rd, Zero and Azure and going straight to the newest duology.

Does that make sense?
 
Would silence have been preferable?

No, but being honest about the project instead of making promises that don't pan out would. Every time the public comment on this project is proposing some implausible release date, or trying to downplay something historical like the game's original announcement in 2010, it just makes XSEED sound unreliable and incapable. Silence isn't great -- and don't get me wrong, the localization blogs and the frank updates about what precisely is going on with the game are excellent and very valuable -- but you've gotta hold yourselves accountable for what you promise, explicitly or implicitly, to your fans.
 
No, but being honest about the project instead of making promises that don't pan out would. Every time the public comment on this project is proposing some implausible release date, or trying to downplay something historical like the game's original announcement in 2010, it just makes XSEED sound unreliable and incapable. Silence isn't great -- and don't get me wrong, the localization blogs and the frank updates about what precisely is going on with the game are excellent and very valuable -- but you've gotta hold yourselves accountable for what you promise, explicitly or implicitly, to your fans.

This.
 
No, but being honest about the project instead of making promises that don't pan out would. Every time the public comment on this project is proposing some implausible release date, or trying to downplay something historical like the game's original announcement in 2010, it just makes XSEED sound unreliable and incapable. Silence isn't great -- and don't get me wrong, the localization blogs and the frank updates about what precisely is going on with the game are excellent and very valuable -- but you've gotta hold yourselves accountable for what you promise, explicitly or implicitly, to your fans.

Well put.
No silence.
Yes updates. The blogs are informative and fun to read. I love when they pop up.
Try not to give solid or even tentative dates, really.

It sucks to be completely in the dark as we were for so long and it's no fun to watch proposed potential release dates pass us by.
Getting updates like we do in the blog is sort of a best of both worlds where we have neither a loose date to look forward to nor a complete lack of information on a highly anticipated game.
 
No, but being honest about the project instead of making promises that don't pan out would. Every time the public comment on this project is proposing some implausible release date, or trying to downplay something historical like the game's original announcement in 2010, it just makes XSEED sound unreliable and incapable. Silence isn't great -- and don't get me wrong, the localization blogs and the frank updates about what precisely is going on with the game are excellent and very valuable -- but you've gotta hold yourselves accountable for what you promise, explicitly or implicitly, to your fans.

As I've said before, though, every "promise" we made about the game was made because, at the time, it was a "sure thing." We gave release dates that seem implausible NOW, but at the time, we were absolutely CERTAIN we'd make them -- we wouldn't have said anything otherwise.

It's like if I were making a really complex meal and promised that it would be ready in 10 minutes... and then a moment later, the house caught fire and burned down. Sure, I guess I technically broke my promise, but how could I possibly have foreseen a disaster like that?

If we've learned anything from this, it's to respect Murphy's Law. We've basically stopped promising anything about SC at all, instead just giving vague "this should be how things go" statements with "easy outs" in case something unexpected interferes.

Rarely, in our entire history as a company, has a single game given us as many surprises as SC.

-Tom
 
I can attempt to summarize it for you in an easy to digest fashion.

Legend of Heroes is a long-running RPG series with a ton of branches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Heroes

The sixth entry in the main Legend of Heroes series is three separate 'parts' that are each their own title. Trails in the Sky First Chapter, Second Chapter and 3rd (3rd is an epilogue). The seventh entry is the two games Trails of Zero and Trails of Azure. The eighth entry is Trails of Cold Steel 1 and Trails of Cold Steel 2.

The last Trails game we got, First Chapter, was the latest thing to get localized - Second Chapter is the conclusion to that story, and it is supposedly going to arrive before Cold Steel. With the release of Cold Steel, XSEED is skipping 3rd, Zero and Azure and going straight to the newest duology.

Does that make sense?

I wonder if Falcom will ever make a non-Kiseki LOH series again? I'm sure they will eventually, it's just a question of when.

Also, the Japanese wikipedia article is a lot more detailed on the series, if you can read Japanese or don't mind machine translation.
 
I wonder if Falcom will ever make a non-Kiseki LOH series again? I'm sure they will eventually, it's just a question of when.

I know Nayuta no Kiseki has Kiseki in the name, but it's not actually set in the Trails universe so you might as well call that a 'non-Kiseki' title.
 
Maybe there's a lesson in that.

Don't announce a release date until the game is already released?

I know Nayuta no Kiseki has Kiseki in the name, but it's not actually set in the Trails universe so you might as well call that a 'non-Kiseki' title.

It's kind of like a Xenoblade situation, where they're capitalizing on brand recognition without actually being part of the same series.

As for the original question, I think the LOH series is for all intents and purposes dead. Falcom's even dropped that branding from the Kiseki games.
 
As for the original question, I think the LOH series is for all intents and purposes dead. Falcom's even dropped that branding from the Kiseki games.

They've dropped it from marketing material, but Trails of Cold Steel 1 and 2 are still 'Legend of Heroes 8.' I don't think that'll change much. They just call it 'Erebonia Arc' or 'Crossbell Arc' now.
 
Maybe there's a lesson in that.
Not having a release window at all and only giving a release date 1 week before its out is bad marketing. SC's a special case, and no publisher would handle a more standard project the way you're suggesting.
 
SC's a special case, and no publisher would handle a more standard project the way you're suggesting.

Which was exactly my point. Cold Steel seems to have been a fairly smooth project in comparison and a release date for that game was similarly straightforward to announce, even well in advance. When you're talking a project with multiple blown deadlines over 3+ years it calls for a slightly different approach.
 
Which was exactly my point. Cold Steel seems to have been a fairly smooth project in comparison and a release date for that game was similarly straightforward to announce, even well in advance. When you're talking a project with multiple blown deadlines over 3+ years it calls for a slightly different approach.

Hindsight is 20/20. Again, at the time, each release window we gave seemed like a 100% sure thing. We absolutely COULD NOT have seen the problems that delayed the game at those points, and the mere fact that the game had been delayed a few times previously wasn't really a valid reason to doubt the seemingly incontrovertible facts that we were faced with.

There was literally no way for us to know that things would turn out as they did, on any occasion. It seemed as sure a thing as Cold Steel does now... and as Story of Seasons did... and Onechanbara... and every other game we've released successfully right when we said we would.

It's easy to criticize, but we really did do everything we possibly could, and we never said anything without being sure of it beforehand.

There really is no lesson here except that SC is a cursed game, and that some people are just not very understanding of that fact. ;)

(And that's fair enough! We have kept you guys waiting a long time, and if you choose not to believe us when we tell you why, that's your prerogative. But I just don't see how any of this could've gone any differently at the time. It takes mistakes to learn lessons, and we absolutely have learned from our mistakes here. We could not have learned these lessons any sooner than we did, however.)

-Tom
 
It's easy to criticize, but we really did do everything we possibly could, and we never said anything without being sure of it beforehand.

Oh? You did it in this thread.

Just so you all know, Aeana does not speak for us here. Officially, we still plan to release SC before Cold Steel. We're not going to GUARANTEE that, since you know the second we do, something will catch fire and turn us into liars -- it's the nature of Murphy's Law -- but that is still the plan for the foreseeable future.

...As far as I know, anyway. I've been out at voice-recording for PopoloCrois, so maybe all of that changed in my one-week absence -- but last I heard, that was definitely still the plan, and I see no reason to believe it won't happen.

-Tom

clWsvbd.png

I think it is, but honestly, we all saw that coming.
It's so sad how they never delay their console projects, but PC releases usually have terrible delays. Makes me feel like a second-class citizen.

The post by the Facebook account is still there too.

Look, we all understand there have been problems and everyone is happy to get status updates on what's going on and how far along it is. However, what is put out there, especially in regards to a release, needs to be carefully conveyed. You and another are source are contradicting each other as this thread has shown because stuff is just being put out there.
 
But I just don't see how any of this could've gone any differently at the time.

With all due respect, the reason larger publishers have project managers and risk documents is to help deal with this stuff. I'm not in the gaming industry, but I was in the software industry. Every single time we did a project, someone wrote a risk document. The risk document would list all the risks we think the project could have, how likely they were, how severe they were, and how we could mitigate them. We didn't close a risk until it was no longer going to happen.

So when you say:
We absolutely COULD NOT have seen the problems that delayed the game at those points

I'm a little surprised.

Here's an example. In one project I worked on, there was a very minor known bug from an upstream provider which would not have blocked our ability to ship. The risk document had an entry like:
Risk: Upstream provider does not patch bug.
Severity: Low.
Probability: Medium.
Mitigation: Stay in frequent contact with upstream provider; Thomas will investigate workarounds; Wayne will check use cases to see which are impacted and write troubleshooting text as needed.

And then when we heard back from the upstream provider that they were going to fix it, we lowered the probability of that risk and added a new risk.
Risk: Upstream provider releases update that breaks some of our code.
Severity: Unknown.
Probability: Low.
Mitigation: Contact upstream provider to get preview release, run on testing server to ensure there are no regressions. ETA to make judgment call about which version we ship with: 6 weeks before launch.

We'd have these meetings at least once a month, and we were always closing and opening new risk tasks. And I have to tell you, there were a lot of risks we couldn't close and were ongoing bears... but we never had unexpected risks because we always took the time to expect them. Our relatively small projects generally had 20 or 30 risks identified.

So, here are some examples for SC:

Risk: Contracted localizer could become unavailable or fail to do job.
Severity: High
Probability: Medium (Notes: Contracted individual person with no backup strategy)
Mitigation: Contract multiple personnel to work on project; ensure backup personnel available to take over; structure regular milestones and progress meetings with minimum reporting guidelines--if a milestone is missed, initiate in-depth review.

Risk: Unexpected software issue impedes certification or release.
Severity: Medium-high.
Probability: Low-Medium.
Mitigation: Ensure SLA contract between original team and us guarantees support; hire additional personnel locally to debug, test, or develop changes as needed.

Risk: Project scope exceeds expectations.
Severity: Unknown
Probability: Unknown
Mitigation: Use regular meetings to review progress, design model to ballpark percentage completion and review against intended timelines, add personnel as needed.

Risk: Structural decline in market sector.
Severity: Medium-High.
Probability: Moderate, varies depending on release scheduling.
Mitigation: Ensure timely release; investigate opportunities for hedging risk by exploring alternate platforms; use a pre-sale campaign to ensure peak interest is capitalized on.

I can't pretend to know the intricacies of what's going on inside the project. Unlike some others in this thread I don't really have an interest in Trails or have all that many contacts in the industry. I also don't have an MBA or a PMP or whatever they want project managers to have today. But just on an intuitive level, "unexpected failures" almost always happened because people were winging it rather than taking the time to plan and plot out risks. And certainly the two things that have been made public on this project: the stuff with SpaceDrake and the game's overall scope being vaster than thought... both of these can absolutely, 100% be anticipated, mitigated, and responded to.

No need to hire me, Torrance is too long of a drive anyway. And I know that you guys are a pretty lean operation so it's not always feasible to hire someone full time. But something that might be valuable though would be sending at least one of your people to get project management training. Whether that's a PMP, or ITIL, or really any kind of process improvement stuff, the resources are out there, and they're not expensive compared to what they save you. Also, I do know the Southern California area well and I know there's a fucking ton of producers and former producers from in-industry that consult on project management gigs. Foresight can be 20/20 too.
 
Oh? You did it in this thread.
The post by the Facebook account is still there too.

Yeah, and I've already addressed that. That was clearly a question being misread.

People make mistakes! Pobody's nerfect.

The post is still there, too, because we don't cover up our mistakes. We own them. In this case, I doubt we ever will delete the comment, nor even clarify it, because -- honestly -- what harm is it doing? It's creating doubt in people's minds, but that doubt will (hopefully) be alleviated when we announce a definitive final release date for SC and get the game out before Cold Steel. Then it'll just come as a pleasant surprise to those people who were bummed that we said otherwise on Facebook... and there ain't a damned thing wrong with pleasantly surprising our fans!

Really, I'm just kind of ruining the surprise for you guys by telling you that that answer was likely given in error. So... sorry about that. ;)

Look, we all understand there have been problems and everyone is happy to get status updates on what's going on and how far along it is. However, what is put out there, especially in regards to a release, needs to be carefully conveyed. You and another are source are contradicting each other as this thread has shown because stuff is just being put out there.

We are contradicting one another because another source misread a question. Again, we all make mistakes!

With all due respect, the reason larger publishers have project managers and risk documents is to help deal with this stuff. I'm not in the gaming industry, but I was in the software industry. Every single time we did a project, someone wrote a risk document. The risk document would list all the risks we think the project could have, how likely they were, how severe they were, and how we could mitigate them. We didn't close a risk until it was no longer going to happen.

I've never even HEARD of "risk documents" before. They were never used in my previous job (which was for an EA company that topped out at 500+ people), nor have they ever been used at XSEED.

We have 15 people on staff, and we all fly by the seat of our pants. And that's what makes us successful, I believe. We aren't given carefully-controlled PR lines that we need to parrot to people, nor are we restricted from discussing things online in our own time, unsupervised (save for the unannounced stuff that's still under NDA, of course). Instead, we're allowed to fly free and speak our minds, and I can't tell you what a huge difference that's made in work environment, productivity, and even the quality of our work.

"Risk documents" just seem like they'd result in a lot of missed opportunities, because half the stuff we do is CRAZY, and we know it... but we just choose not to think about it, because it's what we want to do. We know it's a risk, and we don't care -- we're gonna do it anyway, dammit!

If we make contradictory statements online, just ask us about them and we'll clear up the confusion right away, as I've done here. There's no point getting angry over it, and saying "it shouldn't happen in the first place" is making a lot of assumptions about who we are that are simply not accurate. We are not "corporate." We're one step away from indie, honestly. Our press releases always refer to us as an "independent-minded publisher," and that's not just a PR line -- that's our identity. And we love things just the way they are. It may not always result in smooth sailing... but life's a lot more interesting when you've got rough waters every now and again. ;)

For your SC risk document examples in particular, too, most every one of the mitigations you listed is something we COULD NOT DO. We didn't have the time, money, or resources for any of those solutions, which is why we elected to just go ahead as initially planned and... pretty much hope for the best! And while it certainly didn't turn out as smoothly as it could've, it did still work out well in the end, as the game is very much on track.

If we'd used your risk document approach, it's very likely we would've given up on SC altogether many years ago. Because honestly, the risk of the entire project crashing and burning beyond repair was pretty damned high from the start. We took a huge chance on this game, and it's paying off now, but it could've just as easily crushed us and been an absolute disaster.

-Tom
 
Yeah, and I've already addressed that. That was clearly Ken misreading the question.

People make mistakes! Pobody's nerfect.

The post is still there, too, because we don't cover up our mistakes. We own them. In this case, I doubt we ever will delete the comment, nor even clarify it, because -- honestly -- what harm is it doing? It's creating doubt in people's minds, but that doubt will (hopefully) be alleviated when we announce a definitive final release date for SC and get the game out before Cold Steel. Then it'll just come as a pleasant surprise to those people who were bummed that we said otherwise on Facebook... and there ain't a damned thing with pleasantly surprising our fans!

Really, I'm just kind of ruining the surprise for you guys by telling you that that answer was likely given in error. So... sorry about that. ;)

I cannot believe what I am reading. You don't see any problem with XSEED employees making contradictory statements online and not making any effort to go back and fix any mistakes that may have been made? If XSEED really wanted to own mistakes, the company would either make a clarifying post in the Facebook group correcting the statement made there or they would tell you that what you said here was incorrect and have you post in this thread to retract your earlier statement. To not do so is unprofessional, makes the company look poorly run, makes it seem like no one at the company knows what anyone else at the company is doing, and causes people to disbelieve everything a company spokesperson states. I'm sure you mean well, but this post makes it sound like you have no idea how to run a company that can build a relationship of trust with its costumers. Mistrust is not ultimately beneficial to any company, let alone a company operating in a small, niche market such as XSEED which heavily relies on maintaining a good reputation among a small but committed base. I appreciate some of the things you guys have been doing, such as the localization blogs, but when I read posts like this it makes me want to not buy anything XSEED publishes.
 
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