Support NeoGAF

[Rabbi_Vole]

You mean the movie where a boy was the fastest person on earth?

Not him specifically, but people shouldn't be penalized or ostracized for employing the traits that make them unique.

 

[Imperfected]

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

MMA/Boxing has weight categories so it might actually be the least in need of special case rules dealing with trans individuals.

 

[ApharmdX]

Can you back that up scientifically? I've been looking for studies, similar to the comparisons of male vs female physicality posted earlier in the thread, and can not find any.

Wikipedia seems to indicate that it is a belief that holds no water.

We're trying to tell you, as politely as possible, that this is false. As in, there is no factual basis for it.

Eh, there's some factual basis for running events and racial/ethnic background. For instance, dozens of men from West African background have broken the 10 second barrier for the 100m. Only one Caucasian has done it as of 2010. At the extremes of human physical prowess, race seems to matter. But just a blanket statement of "blacks are physically more gifted" is silly. Eastern Europeans, Russians, and Scandinavians do extremely well at strength/powerlifting competitions, for instance. West Africans do worse at swimming events.

The whole topic (gender/race and sports) is kind of uncomfortable. It's hard to tell whether someone is arguing earnestly, or coming from a position of bias.

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

Too much man. That's not respectful.

 

[Beerman462]

I believe transgender women have an advantage over cis women. How much of advantage would depend on how early they transition, how long it's been since the transion and if hormone replacement is used. I think in the case of this girl you have to ask how long ago did she go through puberty, because that's when testosterone gets elevated and when boys generally start out performing girls.

The fact that she got third and fifth does color the discussion for sure. If you assume all althetes trained equally then the gender gap doesn't seem substantial. Someone mentioned that she allegedly started competing this year? If true is that just in girls track or did she possibly compete in boys before? I kind of doubt it. Seems we would have heard if that were true.

It has an effect on MMA. If it hasn't been posted Fallon Fox is being scrutinized as a transgender woman competing in womens MMA.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-mma-fighter-destroys-female-opponent/


No matter what it's a hard pill to swallow. With isolated incidents like this I don't see anything changing. If the community truly feels 4th place deserves a scholarship then do something about it. If it becomes a more wide spread issue then it will have to be addressed on a bigger scale.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

That after hormone replacement therapy (which the ridiculous majority of trans people want/need/have) the diferences are praticaly zero. 1 year for trans women or 2 months for trans men. This is so overproved that it is the official olympics guideline

You people are working like "ah I will just say that I am a girl and win all the gold medals" ... it does not work that way. We are walking to be a society that identify and treats trans children as soon as they can, so in a few years there will be no more even the "late treatment problem" ... and if you have problems with the late unchangeable stuff than you probably should make height restrictions in female sports =P

I've never mentioned someoone undergoing HRT once in any of my posts, and I was under he impression that the high schooler in the article isn't undergoing HRT

 

[Dunk#7]

You have to maintain fair competition, and those born male or female have different physical traits no matter what you do.

If we continue down this path males will own all of the past female records.

Are Caitlyn Jenner's athletic/olympic records considered male or female records now? This is all too confusing.

 

[Steve o 3000]

Why can't you be concerned about more than one thing at a time? Trans people face massive health disparities that can't really be handwaved away.

I would be concerned for the woman in this specific case (MMA.) Any other sport I'm all for it man vs woman vs transgender competition. I probably shouldn't have used a bit from a comedy show to bring it up, but I've had a long day and my give a fuck meter is at zero.

 

[ugaboga232]

Are you going to stop Usain Bolt from identifying as a female if he declares that he's been a woman in a man's body? I think you're arguing against yourself with that point.

And you told me to Google, so why don't you do the same. They all talk about avoiding physical stress.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000411.htm Straight from NIH and no note.

I would not stop Usain Bolt but its a hypothetical that isn't happening. Set up some rules with hormone timelines if you must but this is such a rare nonissue that making a wide sweeping statement probably makes trans people feel even less integrated than they are if thats even possible.

Besides sports is a meaningless genetics lottery anyway which is gonna get even more complicated with gene editing right around the corner.

I would be concerned for the woman in this specific case (MMA.) Any other sport I'm all for it man vs woman vs transgender competition. I probably shouldn't have used a bit from a comedy show to bring it up, but I've had a long day and my give a fuck meter is at zero.

There are routs in MMA all the time, why does the gender or sex of the participants suddenly make it safer? I am glad to know that when you are tired you start very rudely insulting maligned groups in society however.

 

[crazygambit]

The differences are more pronounced at that age level:

https://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/records/30-records/277-mens-outdoor-high-school-records
https://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/records/30-records/281-womens-high-school-records

2 second difference in the 200m.



Then shouldn't you be able to handpick any black athlete at random in the continent of Africa and have them smoke the fastest white athlete?

You can't look at a distinct, geographically isolated population of people and project that across an entire race. Black Caribbean islanders are as different from Black Kenyans as Black Ghanians are from Western Europeans. Race is social. We find it more convenient to group people by outward physical characteristics because it's easy, but genetics don't work that way.

That's a really poor argument IMO. It's like saying you should pick any random men and he should be able to beat Ronda Rousey. Since you can't, women are equal to men.

Doesn't work that way. People's skill are normally distributed. The distribution for men in athletics has a higher mean for performance than the women's distribution. If we assume the same dispersion, then the top men will beat the top women. However the top women could be well above the average men.

 

[Timeaisis]

If we get rid of gender separations in sport, we can kiss female participation goodbye. That's hardly a solution.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on this stuff. Just bringing up the only two possible solutions I can see here.

1) Disallow it / have some stringent rules about participation
2) Stop separating by gender

On one hand, one is more progressive, while the other is more fair. I do agree with you that if you do separate by gender you're likely to lose a lot of female athletes. But is there an alternate solution to this other than have rules against transgender participation? Not off the top of my head.

EDIT: I should clarify, option 2, to me seems like the natural progression if they keep allowing transgender athletes to participate in their transitioned gender's sports. I guess a third option is just keep doing it like this. Which, I think, will eventually lead to 2 or, like you said, eventually lead to less women in sports without explicitly a gender separation.

 

[How About No]

Just screw it replace all sports with free-for-all street fighting to the death. That goes for gym class as well

"You have huge arms, well I have a fucking scythe. Your move bitch"

There, balanced competition

That or golf.

Which tees does everyone play from?

......oh. Right.....

K change of plans the course is getting razed too to make way for the new battle pit

 

[Steve o 3000]

Too much man. That's not respectful.

You're right. I apologize.

 

[Platy]

I've never mentioned someoone undergoing HRT once in any of my posts, and I was under he impression that the high schooler in the article isn't undergoing HRT

The article does not mention because the article does not care.

Googling I can't find a single source that
1) treats the kid with respect 2) mentions anything about hormone therapy.

I have no idea how Alaska works with these stuff but from what I heard it is not that uncommon for puberty blockers and hrt on teens in the usa

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

We HolyBaikal now.

 

[Chris R]

That or golf.

Which tees does everyone play from?

 

[Rayis]

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

..............

Trans people are a infinitelly small demographic, and it's separate but equal to make a league just for them, the same with the whole bathroom debacle.

 

[masud]

I understand that trans people were born in the wrong bodies and I respect their right to transition to one that they are more comfortable in and their right to be treated with respect. But that transition isn't magic it's just the best we can do at the time from a medical/scientific standpoint. There are limitations, just like we haven't figured out a way for trans women to get pregnant and give birth we haven't figured out a way to fully eliminate the inherent physical advantages that a male body has over a female one. Until we figure that out trans women should not be allowed to compete in official athletic events with women who were born genetically female. It's not fair but the alternative wouldn't be fair either.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Shouldn't we be assuming innocence first?

Particularly how she is not really blatantly outperforming the rest of the -probably- cis competitors, as other gaffers say it happens if you compare male to female athletic performance. If you didn't know she was trans, her record would not look suspicious at all.

We're just going in circles here and don't seem to understand there are varying levels of athleticism regardless of sex.

My point stands – if she's on HRT then no harm no foul and the parents are wrong in this instance and she should be allowed to compete as I said before.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

The article does not mention because the article does not care.

Googling I can't find a single source that
1) treats the kid with respect 2) mentions anything about hormone therapy.

I have no idea how Alaska works with these stuff but from what I heard it is not that uncommon for puberty blockers and hrt on teens in the usa

My issue is with a female trans person competing with biological females, when they haven't undergone HRT. If the olympics allow trans competitor's who have taken hrt than I'm cool with it, as I'm sure they've studied the subject more than I have

 

[WaterAstro]

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000411.htm Straight from NIH and no note.

I would not stop Usain Bolt but its a hypothetical that isn't happening. Set up some rules with hormone timelines if you must but this is such a rare nonissue that making a wide sweeping statement probably makes trans people feel even less integrated than they are if thats even possible.

Besides sports is a meaningless genetics lottery anyway which is gonna get even more complicated with gene editing right around the corner.

The goal of treatment is to return hormone levels to normal, or near normal. This is done by taking a form of cortisol, most often hydrocortisone. People may need additional doses of medicine during times of stress, such as severe illness or surgery.

Well you seem the cherry picked a website that does not include 'physical injury' along with illness and surgery. I highly doubt you can prove that physical activity does not produce stress.

If you think sports is meaningless, then stop arguing. You have no interest in sports, so you're not qualified to argue against it.

 

[-COOLIO-]

That after hormone replacement therapy (which the ridiculous majority of trans people want/need/have) the diferences are praticaly zero. 1 year for trans women or 2 months for trans men. This is so overproved that it is the official olympics guideline

You people are working like "ah I will just say that I am a girl and win all the gold medals" ... it does not work that way. We are walking to be a society that identify and treats trans children as soon as they can, so in a few years there will be no more even the "late treatment problem" ... and if you have problems with the late unchangeable stuff than you probably should make height restrictions in female sports =P

If you were trans at school you would take anti androgens, which means that your muscle mass would dissapear, your metabolism would be slower, your bones would loose density, blood carry less oxigen, skin thinner ....and lots of other stuff that would mean that no, you would NOT win every medal and break every record

Youre probably sick of busting your sources out for the uninformed but could I get one for your first paragraph? I'd like to learn about the m to f strength reduction.

 

[Platy]

My issue is with a female trans person competing with biological females, when they haven't undergone HRT. If the olympics allow trans competitor's who have taken hrt than I'm cool with it, as I'm sure they've studied the subject more than I have

Then you don't have to worry because it is a rare case and will be more rare as the year passes

 

[thebadmoodvivi]

If we continue down this path males will own all of the past female records.

 

[ugaboga232]

Well you seem the cherry picked a website that does not include 'physical injury' along with illness and surgery. I highly doubt you can prove that physical activity does not produce stress.

If you think sports is meaningless, then stop arguing. You have no interest in sports, so you're not qualified to argue against it.

Ugh do you really need me to talk about the whole cortisol cycle and why you need cortisol and the nature of illnesses like this?

I am qualified to talk about these conditions and the very complicated nature of biological sex however.

 

[beast786]

Some problems might not just yah a perfect right solution.

I say let her compete.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

This is such a rare exception. A complete non issue, but because it upsets the sports apple cart a smidge, people go crazy. The few kids that feel disenfranchised out of literally 100's of millions will live.

 

[Skii]

Mankind appeared on the face of the earth loooooong after such dramatic tectonic movements...which I am not sure are even right the way you suggest.

I literally addressed this on the same page ffs.

 

[Nickle]

I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly come to that conclusion.

This is so simple... I don't know why it is so hard to grasp.

Example A:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that is obsessed with women's soccer, there are leagues all across the country that feature intense tournaments, and high-intensity training camps. To compete in these tournaments means you are competing against the best, all the time. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and women's sports are just as highly respected as men's... resulting in women being taught from birth to compete just like men are.

Example B:

You are a girl playing soccer, you live in a country that thinks women shouldn't play sports and it doesn't support women's leagues or competitiveness at all. Women are taught from birth that they are supposed to be pretty and fragile, not competitive. You play in soccer tournaments and attend a few camps, but there are few girls participating, and a very low level of competition due to lack of support and zero competitive culture.

---

Example A is a mythical country where women are encouraged to compete from birth, and Example B is pretty much every country in the world currently albeit to less of an extreme.

Which country is going to have more skilled female athletes?

Is this really that hard to grasp?

Obviously Example A will produce the best athletes, no one will argue with that. I (and many others in this thread) just don't think that women will be able to compete with high class male athletes, regardless of how society teaches them to compete.

Do you think that Serena Williams can't beat Federer because she doesn't have the mental fortitude to? I guarantee that she spends half of the day thinking about what she can do to get better, and the other half of the day is spent training.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Some problems might not just yah a perfect right solution.

I say let her compete.

And the Olympics agree with us. Get on the right side of history, people. The integrity of your precious sports will somehow survive.

 

[-COOLIO-]

This is such a rare exception. A complete non issue, but because it upsets the sports apple cart a smidge, people go crazy. The few kids that feel disenfranchised out of literally 100's of millions will live.

Pretty much

 

[Trojita]

And the Olympics agree with us. Get on the right side of history, people. The integrity of your precious sports will somehow survive.

Would you be fine with her not being able to compete once the guidelines borrowed from the Olympics make it so she can't compete until a HRT transition and/or a specific testosterone level are reached? There's a possibility with that just based on the Olympics guidelines alone.

 

[Kinyou]

And the Olympics agree with us. Get on the right side of history, people. The integrity of your precious sports will somehow survive.

Dude, you're all over the place. First you say it doesn't matter that transgender women have an advantage and now you rely on the Olympics who argue that transgender women undergoing hormone therapy don't have an advantage. Which is it?

 

[WaterAstro]

My issue is with a female trans person competing with biological females, when they haven't undergone HRT. If the olympics allow trans competitor's who have taken hrt than I'm cool with it, as I'm sure they've studied the subject more than I have

I don't even think Olympics would allow anyone that goes through HRT to be allowed to compete since hormone injection is banned.

Ugh do you really need me to talk about the whole cortisol cycle and why you need cortisol and the nature of illnesses like this?

I am qualified to talk about these conditions and the very complicated nature of biological sex however.

Talk whatever you need to, bro. You're really not going to convince anyone without evidence, and your explanations aren't evidence as it has no studies done in the field of sports.

 

[Platy]

Youre probably sick of busting your sources out for the uninformed but could I get one for your first paragraph? I'd like to learn about the m to f strength reduction.

The easiest one is the Olympic press release

IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery

male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.
[..]
“This is a scientific consensus paper, not a rule or regulation,” he said. “It is the advice of the medical and scientific commission and what we consider the best advice.”

Or if you want to go really deep

Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?

The NCAA instituted somewhat less stringent guidelines in 2011. They do not require surgery, and they require only one year on testosterone suppression for male-to-female transgender athletes. The conclusions of the consulting medical experts on the NCAA policy were unambiguous:

"It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence."

[...]

In an interview regarding transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, Dr. Marci Bowers explains why there is no effective competitive advantage in being a transgender woman:

"Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart."

In the same interview, Dr. Sherman Leis concurred in all respects.

Indeed, given that women get 25 percent of their circulating testosterone from their ovaries, post-operative transgender women typically have less testosterone than their counterparts. Fox noted, “Any of the women I’m competing against, my testosterone levels are drastically lower than theirs; it’s almost nothing.”

Dr. Bowers agreed: “When you test her, she’s going to come out with low testosterone levels and muscle mass that is remarkably similar to her counterparts.” These observations were borne out in Fallon Fox’s first defeat at the hands of Ashlee Evans-Smith, where Fox’s muscle fatigue in later rounds gave Smith an advantage. After the fight, Smith observed, “I won because I hit harder, grappled better, had better ground techniques, cardio and leg strength.”

Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If this is allowed, then there's no reason to separate male vs female sports anymore.

Ridiculous.

I hate to say it, but (some) born women would be put at a disadvantage if this is allowed. Not saying that is bad thing necessarily, but that's why they separate men and women's sports to begin with.

Yes, but that doesn't mean all transwomen should be excluded. It's not that simple.

Read up on this, folks:
http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Saying all transwomen should be excluded (or forced to play in the men's divisions) is as myopic and dumb (and offensive) as saying all transwomen, regardless of testosterone or transition status, should be allowed to play in the women's division. It's more nuanced than that.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

edit: beaten

 

[ugaboga232]

I don't even think Olympics would allow anyone that goes through HRT to be allowed to compete since hormone injection is banned.



Talk whatever you need to, bro. You're really not going to convince anyone without evidence, and your explanations aren't evidence as it has no studies done in the field of sports.

You were saying: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445650/ ?

https://books.google.com/books?id=PR_866jV02sC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia+and+sports&source=bl&ots=T7GjVZhPhW&sig=jsupHKGcSfTxh05IQNgwiFC7VzM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv_sK6_ZvNAhUHqh4KHceKCjEQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=congenital%20adrenal%20hyperplasia%20and%20sports&f=false

 

[-COOLIO-]

Would you be fine with her not being able to compete once the guidelines borrowed from the Olympics make it so she can't compete until a HRT transition and/or a specific testosterone level are reached? There's a possibility with that just based on the Olympics guidelines alone.

The solution for non hrt individuals seems obvious though. You would just play in the league for your birth assigned sex. I could be wrong but I don't think most transgender people who haven't undergone any therapy would be opposed to this since male/female leagues aren't so much a gender cultural thing but rather strictly division of physical capability.

Though f to m should be able to pick their league regardless of hrt.

 

[mStudios]

Give us a scientific source, not one that accommodates your sensibilities.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Dude, you're all over the place. First you say it doesn't matter that transgender women have an advantage and now you rely on the Olympics who argue that transgender women undergoing hormone therapy don't have an advantage. Which is it?

Not all over the place.. The olympics are going down the same road. The spirit is largely the same. It was stated that "equalization" by way of HT hasn't been proven, so really, what's the difference? I take the Olympics requirement more as a way of weeding out potential competitors who might want to falsify their gender to get a "leg up."

 

[Complete]

a dickless dude

This is not how you speak of transwomen or transmen. Think before you post.

 

[Lee Chaolan]

Indeed, given that women get 25 percent of their circulating testosterone from their ovaries, post-operative transgender women typically have less testosterone than their counterparts. Fox noted, “Any of the women I’m competing against, my testosterone levels are drastically lower than theirs; it’s almost nothing.”

Wow, didn't know that at all! Really great info, and my girlfriend in particular is pretty happy about this bit. lol.

 

[Trojita]

The easiest one is the Olympic press release

IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery



Or if you want to go really deep

Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?



Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students

Reread your IOC source Platy. This isn't a rule or regulation, it is a recommendation. They also don't have any restrictions for F->M (Except the undiscussed issue of testosterone injections being banned already).

 

[Slaythe]

Like I said, I'm not an expert on this stuff. Just bringing up the only two possible solutions I can see here.

1) Disallow it / have some stringent rules about participation
2) Stop separating by gender

Lol........

Like THAT would solve everything.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

Then you don't have to worry because it is a rare case and will be more rare as the year passes

You're probably right, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

How would you feel about only allowing transwomen to compete with other women after they've undergone a certain amount of HRT? And I mean in high school and college, not just the olympics

 

[WaterAstro]

You were saying: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445650/ ?

https://books.google.com/books?id=PR_866jV02sC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=congenital+adrenal+hyperplasia+and+sports&source=bl&ots=T7GjVZhPhW&sig=jsupHKGcSfTxh05IQNgwiFC7VzM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv_sK6_ZvNAhUHqh4KHceKCjEQ6AEIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=congenital%20adrenal%20hyperplasia%20and%20sports&f=false

She plays as a striker. She is a speedy player with a high level of technique. Despite her impressive role in the team, she usually cannot play more than one halftime because of excessive fatigue and vomiting due to electrolytes imbalance.

I don't think your example is going to make it to any high level competition like that.

 

[Platy]

Reread your IOC source Platy. This isn't a rule or a guideline, it is a recommendation. They also don't have any restrictions for F->M (Except the undiscussed issue of testosterone injections being banned already).

This is most complete source I found but it is from 5 months ago... I am pretty sure it is already a guideline. Which is why I quoted the SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS part that is even more important than what the guidelines are

 

[ugaboga232]

I don't think your example is going to make it to any high level competition like that.

That is due to the aldosterone problems, not related to her androgen level. There are related diseases that dont have salt wasting but still have increased androgens to give them a leg up but are still XX.

Why can't you admit that going by XX and XY is not a perfect measure of virilization which is what seems to be the issue here? Sports divisions are pretty arbitrarily divorced from the science behind biological sex.

 

[Kinyou]

Not all over the place.. The olympics are going down the same road. The spirit is largely the same. It was stated that "equalization" by way of HT hasn't been proven, so really, what's the difference? I take the Olympics requirement more as a way of weeding out potential competitors who might want to falsify their gender to get a "leg up."

That sounds like a silly assumption to me.

Edith boy why didn't I read your tag earlier. You're probably just trolling.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The easiest one is the Olympic press release

IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery



Or if you want to go really deep

Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?



Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students

Merci