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[ugaboga232]

That idea pretty much kills the spirit of sports.

The spirit of sports is already pretty broken with all this doping, and I tend to care more about mental health and the already abysmal suicide rate of trans people but thats just me.

Also there are many tumors that secrete androgens that can cause similar effects in non trans people too, where do we draw the line?

 

[WaterAstro]

who is cheating????

A person with a male physique entering a female physical competition.

 

[Platy]

Yes, but with a significant caveat re: testosterone level...

Totaly ... but anyone saw the video ?

The girl in question is so thin and muscleless she might be confused for a stick =P

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

This isn't the same thing. Affirmative action isn't supposed to make employers pick less qualified applicants because of race. The playing field is still equal in terms of merit. In this situation a person has a clear advantage above everyone else.

You want to just allow people to get this advantage because you feel bad for them? That's "victim culture" if i've ever seen it.

Ultimately, science is going to have to weigh in. There will be a cut off age where someone can transition and still be allowed to compete. I just don't think it will realistically be an age where someone has considered a change.

Pretty sure mandatory quotas have, in small isolated cases, placed minorities above "more qualified" non-minorities. It's VERY RARE, just like the transgender example on the OP and not worth the furor.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah bro. Sports are srs business amirite.

Serious. Business.

I... don't understand this post. I'm assuming you are sarcastic, but yes, actually, sports are a serious, billion-dollar business...

 

[norm9]

Yeah bro. Sports are srs business amirite.

Serious. Business.

If scholarships are involved, yes.

 

[ElFly]

...and the parents of the other girls will say they have a right to a fair competition, specially if government scholarships are involved.

Just because we have a right to equality doesnt mean we have a right to special treatment.

She still has a right to those scholarships.

 

[SwolBro]

The civil rights of a transgendered person > Sports.

Competing with an edge isn't a civil right.

 

[partyphone]

A person with a male physique entering a female physical competition.

what's a male physique?

 

[heliosRAzi]

It isn't. Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay for black people to compete in certain events knowing they have a physical advantage but not transgender people?

I'm just playing devil's advocate but it is a very relevant point. Neither of these people choose to be their race or their gender.

Has this been proven? Am I now biologically superior to all other races now?

 

[Subpar Scrub]

She shouldn't be allowed to compete due to the inherent advantage, IMO. We don't know enough about how far into trainsitioning one must be to lose an advantage, so I don't think she should have been allowed to compete.

I remember in high school I came 12th for sprints in my grade level, however if I was female I'd have come 4th. I came 4th-6th in javelin, shotput and discus, but if I were female, I'd have won shotput and placed in the top 3 in javelin based on the distance.

Without knowing how long she has been recieving hormone treatments for, and without knowing exactly when an advantage is lost, it doesn't seem entirely fair to let her compete at this stage. Which sucks, because I'd like for her to compete.

 

[WaterAstro]

what's a male physique?

Wow, please go back to school if you have no idea that male and female are physically different in terms of strength.

 

[ugaboga232]

Wow, please go back to school if you have no idea that male and female are physically different in terms of strength.

As someone in med school its far more complicated than you make it out to be otherwise the test I have tomorrow would be so much simpler.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Competing with an edge isn't a civil right.

The equal and fair treatment of transgendered people is absolutely a civil right. Weird that you'd imply otherwise. So she's different, stronger, faster.. She's still a she and has every right to compete with her peers.

 

[jabuseika]

The civil rights of a transgendered person > Sports.

Takes the whole point out of sports.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I mean the fact the student didn't win kind of destroys the point I would think.

You could stick most men in a race and they won't win against competitive women.

 

[SwolBro]

Wow, please go back to school if you have no idea that male and female are physically different in terms of strength.

isn't this narrative getting out of hand? it's gone crazy, really. people trying so hard to swing the pendulum the other way that it's going so far as to doing more damage to equality than they are helping. it's just getting absolutely absurd and ridiculous.

 

[Trojita]

Totaly ... but anyone saw the video ?

The girl in question is so thin and muscleless she might be confused for a stick =P

I can't watch the video right now, but the girl in the middle of the picture has a physique I've seen a lot of track stars have in school.

What is your definition of muscleless? Because those thighs aren't musceless.

 

[Pops Maellard]

I... don't understand this post. I'm assuming you are sarcastic, but yes, actually, sports are a serious, billion-dollar business...

Word choice was definitely poor because yes, sports are literally serious business. Conceptually it's some dumb shit though.

But yeah, as an industry it's crazy lucrative. Which, if anything, makes the answer to this discussion even more obvious. When was the last time sports were just a raw measure of physical ability? Centuries ago? Longer?

 

[Skii]

Has this been proven? Am I now biologically superior to all other races now?

No that's not how it works. If you are black, depending on where you're from, you have the genetics making you more capable at long distance or sprint running. So if you were to run against an average person of another race, you'd fair better depending on the composition of your muscles.

 

[Polioliolio]

I'm personally of the belief that unless you want to make all sports allow both genders to compete together you should go for biological sex over gender identity, since that's the reason why you separate in the first place. But then that almost bars trans people from playing sports in a way, so it's not exactly a perfect solution. The whole situation sucks but I'm not sure there's much we can do.

This is how I feel.

Maybe men and women could compete together in races. It's not meant to be a contact sport so worst case scenario, men perform better overall, but that's to be expected from physical activity apparently.

 

[partyphone]

As someone in med school its far more complicated than you make it out to be otherwise the test I have tomorrow would be so much simpler.

True or False? Men are better than women at everything.

 

[heliosRAzi]

No that's not how it works. If you are black, depending on where you're from, you have the genetics making you more capable at long distance or sprint running. So if you were to run against an average person of another race, you'd fair better depending on the composition of your muscles.

I was born in Houston, does the gulf of Mexico give me extra power?

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

isn't this narrative getting out of hand? it's gone crazy, really. people trying so hard to swing the pendulum the other way that it's going so far as to doing more damage to equality than they are helping. it's just getting absolutely absurd and ridiculous.

Typical argument of someone when societal change hits something they care about.

 

[ElFly]

Ha, well that's great and all but you having your doubts doesn't change the fact that she'd have a significant advantage depending on whether or not she's undergoing therapy. From what I've read in this very thread from people with 1st/2nd hand accounts it's like night and day.

I don't think anyone is arguing they have the right to compete – everyone does. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be regulated in some way or else someone could get seriously hurt.

If you are accusing her of not being on HRT, the onus of proof is on you.

So let's see them receipts.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

No that's not how it works. If you are black, depending on where you're from, you have the genetics making you more capable at long distance or sprint running. So if you were to run against an average person of another race, you'd fair better depending on the composition of your muscles.

The difference is negligible when compared to the difference between a male vs a female

 

[WaterAstro]

As someone in med school its far more complicated than you make it out to be otherwise the test I have tomorrow would be so much simpler.

Yeah, and I am God. You can't prove me wrong because I'm anonymous.

Med school? Please bro. It's you vs years of studies from scientists.

 

[Trojita]

How many of the parents of the students ARE actually angry?

Because like I stated before in relation to this

The transgender athlete’s performance in Anchorage frustrated competitors and parents with the Alaska Family Council at Dimond Alumni Field.

The Alaska Family Council is a hate group against LGBTQ and saying "AND Parents with the Alaska Family Council" doesn't inspire faith that this is specifically parents of competitors.

 

[ugaboga232]

True or False? Men are better than women at everything.

What is true is that whoever designed the female ovulation cycle really didn't do them any favors reusing parts of the insulin loop (perhaps why female obesity is higher than male obesity) among other shitty things.

Yeah, and I am God. You can't prove me wrong because I'm anonymous.

Med school? Please bro. It's you vs years of studies from scientists.

I am also a scientist (getting a phd as well) but you really don't need to believe me. Go google congenital adrenal hyperplasia and stuff like that if you want to see how the lines are very blurry.

 

[SwolBro]

Typical argument of someone when societal change hits something they care about.

wow. this right here, this is exactly what the problem is talking to some people about this topic. You can't even have real dialogue, the labeling and the assumptions come out immediately.

next out of your mouth is "you're a racist" or "a bigot" right? Good day to you. I'm done.

 

[Suikoguy]

How many of the parents of the students ARE actually angry?

Because like I stated before in relation to this

That's a good question...

 

[Kitschkraft]

But where do black people in the rest of the western world come from? They either come from the Caribbeans (which broke off from Africa in prehistoric times) or from Africa itself.

Their environment and chance has given them a physical genetic advantage which helps them in running sports. It is beyond clear if you just look at short distance track events or long distance track events. It is dominated by black people. Why are you getting upset by this? It is biological fact. It's the same biological fact that white people find it much easier to digest lactose than those of other races because of the environment they have lived in.

I study biology at university and I've studied evolutionary traits and advantages for almost 3 years now, I'm just telling you stuff that was actually part of my course.



Yes it is but there is still a distinct advantage in running sports for black people than other races and it's no surprise that they dominate in certain track events because of it. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just genetics.

Why are only sports where black people appear to have some form of dominance the only one ever brought up in these conversations? Why don't you bring up Eastern European dominance in weight-lifting? Asian dominance in diving based events? White dominance in swimming events?

Enough with this 'bu bu but...the blacks" shit. Trying to use blacks, a group with a very clear and recorded history of being segregated out of sporting events, to make a case for another discriminated group, is down right disgusting. Fallon Fox tried to pull this same shit and it truly turned me off her case.

In regards to the point you're trying to make, the difference is that, if black people have some inherent genetic/physiological/hormonal advantage, they were simply born with it and didn't have to modify themselves. It's a benefit of heritage. That's a given in sports anyways.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

wow. this right here, this is exactly what the problem is talking to some people about this topic. You can't even have real dialogue, the labeling and the assumptions come out immediately.

next out of your mouth is "you're a racist" or "a bigot" right? Good day to you. I'm done.

Lol. You began the labeling.. Wow.

 

[partyphone]

What is true is that whoever designed the female ovulation cycle really didn't do them any favors reusing parts of the insulin loop (perhaps why female obesity is higher than male obesity) among other shitty things.



I am also a scientist (getting a phd as well) but you really don't need to believe me. Go google congenital adrenal hyperplasia and stuff like that if you want to see how the lines are very blurry.

there were fewer McDonald's 300,000 years ago. also we probably only lived to 25 or whatever.

but our sports were pure.

 

[Yoshi]

you're saying she doesn't deserve to compete?

There would be the option to compete in the division that fits your sex. I can understand discussions around toilets and dressing rooms, but sex separation in sports are there in order to enable biological women to be competitive, since, on average, there is a huge difference in strength and stamina between males and females. This does not change by being transgender, so putting biological males into the female division is skewing the competition.

 

[Zoe]

Totaly ... but anyone saw the video ?

The girl in question is so thin and muscleless she might be confused for a stick =P

So, a runner then?

 

[Cerato]

For most track meets there's a qualifier and then a final, and only the top 8 or so people make the final (with the potential to medal or score). Can't you understand how frustrating it must be to be the girl who got 9th and bumped from the final because you were running against a biological male? Now your meet is cut short and you have no chance at a medal or scoring for your team

You're running against a biological male and seven biological females, and they all beat you.

Also, this particular biological male got beaten in one case by two females, and in another case by four. If they were completely crushing races I could understand the organization who produces the races being like "Okay look, you're breaking our league, we're going to have to figure something else out."

But being pissed that you got fourth, and would have got THIRD if it weren't for that trans person is a) just being an a-hole about losing and b) it's pretty ironic to complain about unfairness to a trans person, when all you did was place out of a medal in a foot race, when they've been dealing with challenges YOU haven't had to worry about their entire lives.

So take fourth and stfu imo.

 

[SwolBro]

Lol. You began the labeling.. Wow.

No, labeling you is if i immediately discredited everything you said for being that typical argument of a "regressive liberal."

 

[HawksWinStanley]

If you are accusing her of not being on HRT, the onus of proof is on you.

So let's see them receipts.

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I just said that whether or not she's undergoing HRT is pivotal to the argument at hand. I think any rational person would agree with that, yet it's a pretty huge piece of info that's left out of the articles we have.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Yeah this is tough. On one hand, it's not really fair. On the other hand, can you really tell a transgender person they forfeit the right to play sports? Do you now have transgender only sports? It's tough.

No, you partition races into biological sex and put intersexed people into the male races.

If intersexed people take issue with this they can make doctor recommended exceptions based on the closest, fairest physiological comparison.

 

[WaterAstro]

isn't this narrative getting out of hand? it's gone crazy, really. people trying so hard to swing the pendulum the other way that it's going so far as to doing more damage to equality than they are helping. it's just getting absolutely absurd and ridiculous.

Equality between whom? There's no argument that there isn't equality between the physical nature of men and women. That's why we separate their playing field since forever.

We're not talking about salary equality, or hiring practices.

I am also a scientist (getting a phd as well) but you really don't need to believe me. Go google congenital adrenal hyperplasia and stuff like that if you want to see how the lines are very blurry.

Okay... I googled it. It's a rare disease.

How does that apply to any of this? Men with this rare disease automatically qualify for women athletics? Is that what you're implying?

 

[Skii]

Why are only sports where black people appear to have some form of dominance the only one ever brought up in these conversations? Why don't you bring up Eastern European dominance in weight-lifting? Asian dominance in diving based events? White dominance in swimming events?

Enough with this 'bu bu but...the blacks" shit. Trying to use blacks, a group with a very clear and recorded history of being segregated out of sporting events, to make a case for another discriminated group, is down right disgusting. Fallon Fox tried to pull this same shit and it truly turned me off her case.

In regards to the point you're trying to make, the difference is that, if black people have some inherent genetic/physiological/hormonal advantage, they were simply born with it and didn't have to modify themselves. It's a benefit of heritage. That's a given in sports anyways.

Wow. You have missed my point entirely. I'm arguing the complete opposite of what you think I was arguing.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

No, labeling you is if i immediately discredited everything you said for being that typical argument of a "regressive liberal."

You accused me of discrediting the transgender movement because I'm "swinging the pendulum too far the other way."

Which is a common last ditch argument, btw.

 

[Corronchilejano]

We don't gender sports because of a social construct (anymore). There's a marked difference between men and women's performance biologically, and correct me if I'm wrong, hormonal treatments' influence in sports have not been studied yet.

Side me with the ones believeing it's unfair to let her compete with other females.

 

[ugaboga232]

Equality between whom? There's no argument that there isn't equality between the physical nature of men and women. That's why we separate their playing field since forever.

We're not talking about salary equality, or hiring practices.



Okay... I googled it. It's a rare disease.

How does that apply to any of this? Men with this rare disease automatically qualify for women athletics? Is that what you're implying?

Women get the disease too, and they are pumping boatloads of testosterone into their blood. What division should they be in? What about people with XY but androgen insensitivity?

 

[ElFly]

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I just said that whether or not she's undergoing HRT is pivotal to the argument at hand. I think any rational person would agree with that, yet it's a pretty huge piece of info that's left out of the articles we have.

The default assumption is that she is under HRT.

Again, people have been posting how males ridiculously outperform females in -some- sports, down to olympic level female athletes being well under the high school male level competition.

This is not what we are seeing here; she is competing on the female level, she is performing as well as other females, some of which outperform her, she is not crushing the competition.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Some of you need to rewatch The Incredibles.

 

[FStubbs]

You could stick most men in a race and they won't win against competitive women.

Yeah but training makes a huge difference. Anecdotally, I was able to outrun a girl who was all state in high school and I was screwing around.

 

[jabuseika]

Totaly ... but anyone saw the video ?

The girl in question is so thin and muscleless she might be confused for a stick =P

Runners don't have that much muscle mass, it slows them down. She fits the physique of any runner, male or female.

Her advantages may be hidden on the strength/density of her bones, on how quickly she heals from injuries, and easier ability to regain muscle mass after long tournaments. But I'm not an expert, I am just some one that enjoys running. From my experience, probably 99% of athlete women runners could beat me easily, but I still see the difference between athlete men and athlete women.

At the end of the day, experts would have to weight in if the patents of the other girls can't accept there is no disadvantage.

 

[GSG Flash]

No, you partition races into biological sex and put intersexed people into the male races.

I agree with this. It's a tricky topic, but I think ultimately this is what's fair. Sport is based upon natural abilities and there's no point in pretending that there's no physiological differences between biological men and women.