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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy
- Thread starter Ensirius
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Good.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's the middle ending imo: better than him escaping / remaining at large, less good than capturing and interrogating him.
It sounds like the Italian police had no choice though (if it was a "shootout", it implies that he had a weapon).
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Stop making me like you, Toni.
Stop making me like you, Toni.
While that andrew person could just be a guy with no knowledge throwing shit, I believe he was probably alluding to Schengen not working with the result of open internal borders despite uncontrolled outer borders, meaning if there were internal border checks as a consequence of Schengen not working Anis A. would not have been able to move between countries in theory as he seems to have done.
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
You still have no idea about German politics.
I mean who is supposed to replace Merkel? The SPD (2nd biggest party) where all the candidates are even MORE liberal on refugee issues? The Green or Die Linke? Same. FDP? Will be lucky to get above 5%. The AfD? Absolutely 0 charismatic leaders to gather behind (no Le Pen, no Trump, nothing) and will stuggle to get more than 20% outside of Eastern Germany. (which is only 1/4th of the country). Absolutely 0.000% change they can get the 51% of the vote in any Bundesland they need to actually govern (as EVERY other party hates them utterly and will form an anti-coalition if they must), except maybe Saxony, and even that is an extremely long shot despite basically being the stronghold of far right sentiment.
We also don't have political partisanship, 2 party system/voting choice, a Rust Belt or christian fanatics to deal with.
No, CDU will still end up strongest party and as majority leader in any coalition unless SPD/Linke/Grüne manage to form one instead.
ClosingADoor
Member
I agree that Merkel will win. But this is also a dangerous thing. People are then basically voting for her because there is nobody else, not because they actually like her. Not a good long term option for Germany.
Yep. The only interesting thing will be how big the losses of CDU / SPD will be and as a result whether another CDU/SPD coalition will be possible or if they have to take the greens into the boat (which would be kind of ironic if the elections overall were to shift to the right in the 2017 elections).
I also agree with this. Merkel has always proclaimed that her policies are "alternativlos" aka without alternative and essentially so is her standing within the CDU - there doesn't seem to be any runner-up or anyone where you'd say "Yeah, that person could be the future!". There was with Guttenberg but we all know what happened with that.
While political stagnation isn't great, it's also not at all dangerous in context of a political landscape that has Donald Trump tweeting about nukes as the president elect. 4 years of Merkel are the most tame scenario for Germany.
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
SPD still has a solid chance of getting the post if the CDU loses enough votes and Die Grünen and Linke gain enough votes. SPD has Steinmeier who is really well liked and if they are smart they will use him as candidate instead of another Peer Steinbrück (who was their weakest candidate in 20 years and still managed to get the party a 2% increase over the last election). That can easily give them some decent upwind, hopefully enough for a SPD+Grüne (and maybe FDP if they can get over 5% and pull their head out of their arse) coalition.
People should worry about France, Austria and pretty much other country when it comes to right wing parties taking over (or rather already having taken over like in Poland) than Germany.
A SPD + Grüne government taking over again and Steinmeier becomming chancellor is still the best thing that can happen IMO, definitely better than Merkel at this point. She is a good politician but she's been doing the job for 11 years now. Also I want the bloody CSU out of the government.
Steinmeier will become the next german president, not SPD chancellor candidate. And there is absolutely zero chance SPD will be ahead of CDU while Die Linke and Grünen also rise. That is maybe a leftwing fantasy but not reality.
SPD+Greens are literally only at 33% together in the most optimistic of recent polls.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
I thought that the German police were confident that the guy was still in Berlin?
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
Ah, missed that piece of information. Been in Japan for 4 months now and am not watching the German news channels every day. Definitely a great choice for president though, though it might have been a play by the CDU to deny Steinmeier the chance for becoming chancellor. Hopefully the SPD is smarter than promoting another Steinbrück.
Still higher than anything the AfD can get in any case.
I think a far right party coming to power would be a lot more dangerous, for the country and for europe.
And people don't vote for Merkel just because there is nobody else. Merkel and her politics are still supported by the majority of the german citizens.
http://www.infratest-dimap.de/umfragen-analysen/bundesweit/ard-deutschlandtrend/2016/dezember/
Me too, but it ain't happening. The SPD is donzo under the current leadership.
Yes but you need 50% of the votes (or slightly less, whatever is equivalent to the majority of seats in the Bundestag) not 33%. Having more than the AfD doesn't suddenly give them a majority in the Bundestag.
This is my assessment:
CDU will lose some conservative voters who felt lost with Merkels direction towards the AfD but gain some left-wing voters who like Merkel for her faux-humanitarian approach(I say faux because of the Erdogan deal).
SPD will have high losses because the old people voting for them are dying out, their role of junior partner and moving towards the center has kind of made them irrelevant and young left-wing people are rather going to vote for Die Linke or (especcially) the Greens.
The greens will have moderate to good gains because a lot of the new young left voters will vote for them as will former SPD voters who feel neglected by the reds.
Die Linke overall might see small gains but will ultimately stagnate because they are a far-left party and as such their potential is limited in the current political german climate.
AfD will have high gains, mainly from non-voters and disappointed CDU voters.
FDP will stagnate around 5-7% and be more or less irrelevant.
Here are some consolidated numbers on the current last 5 polls:
CDU: 34,2%
SPD: 21,8%
AfD: 12,3%
Greens: 10,7%
Linke: 10,4%
FDP: 5,9%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini...federal_election,_2017#Party_vote_estimations
If that was the result, the only possible two-party coalition would again be CDU/SPD. No other three-party coalition without both the "big two" would be possible. IF, what I think is quite possible, there be quite a big dark figure (the "shame factor", in my assumption especcially big in germany) and AfD make it up to 15-20%, making a CDU/SPD coalition impossible, then the only realistic option(as afaik FDP said they won't be the 3rd junior partner) would be: CDU/SPD/Greens. Which would mean more instability due to the nature of 3-party-coalitions as well as a move towards the left, which could have dire consequences down the line in 2021.
Yeah he opened fire after they asked him for ID. An officer got shot in the shoulder
Press conference live now.
ClosingADoor
Member
It's not so much me being worried about that, but rather that I think people will lose faith (even more) in politics if they feel they have nothing to chose. This will create more resentment towards the establishment, which can lead to more extreme reactions in the future. Not the upcoming election, I agree. But for the longer term it is not a healthy political environment.
Come on, Germany is a big country and their assessment at the point in time was correct. He could only have escaped with the help of others.
There's no need to question their judgement.
Apparently two officers stopped him at 3 am on a square near the train station Sesto San Giovanni and asked him for ID. He shouted 'Allah is great', pulled the gun and started shooting. One officer was injured in the shoulder. Identity of the suspect was confirmed via fingerprints. He had a train ticket that confirmed that he arrived from France into Italy.
EDIT: Beaten
EDIT: Beaten
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Good that they got him but how many more are there next year, it seems to be just a wait and see event and that's truly the sad and rough part of all of it ... the idea of knowing it will continue. I loved what I seen of Germany on Conan and happy to see the people being strong like this now.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
That guy sure travelled with ease
Deaf Spacker
Memb
I hope you're being sarcastic.
They had him under surveillance until a few months and they arrested the wrong guy etc.
Exactly. You can see this in Austria where since 2006 we had years of "forced marriage coalitions" with social democrats and conservatives who more or less hate each other and continually throw stones in each others way (and thus don't manage to push a lot of reforms) and the result of that is currently having FPÖ leading polls for a year now at 35% (8-10% more than the second party).
I wonder what was his destination. Probably a safehouse in Italy, where he could hide for longer time period.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yeah, from those reports this sounds like a fluke. I don't think it really merits a "Well done Europol".
What about that sounds like a fluke?
People are saying "good job europol" when appearantly it was just coincidence that he got into a routine control of the italian police
QuicheFontaine
Member
That bit.
Am I reading it wrong? It doesn't sound like the authorities were following him, or had any idea he was there. He could just have easily not been stopped.
They also pulled surveillance. Belgian Security Services have had to pick up things quite quickly but seems Germany is just as background.
I'm still shocked at a lack of CCTV in the vicinity of the crash. It's a busy square beside a shopping centre; a busy shopping street; down from a large area of hotels and between two tourist areas.
German politicians backed a policy without any sense of control. They then under resourced the institutions that needed to support the policy. However the security services seem to have been quite woeful before and after the attack. Too many people are wanting to protect the German government from criticism due to their own personal politics.
This is an old fashioned government fuck up across the board with 12 dead and tens injured.
PS; Merkel only did this for young male migrant workers. Unfortunately statistics have shown since that she mostly for young male migrants.
ohyouagain
Member
Another guy who will not tell about his motives, and the support he got in planning the attack.
I wonder how many other terrorists involved are still roaming freely around. It's genuinely troubling.
I wonder how many other terrorists involved are still roaming freely around. It's genuinely troubling.
the part where he was randomly stopped and went mental not because they knew where he was.
I wonder he had a plan because moving from Germany to France and then to Italy by train seems like an awful lot of risk for someone on every tv screen right now.
That's assuming he would have talked if he was caught. Abdeslam was caught and didn't talk.
PhantomX1313
Member
Merkel effect, fake encounter double fake if the suspect is fake.
That's the point of those controls though. Not really sure what you want.
It's not like the authorities have been exceptional throughout this, but that doesn't warrant to shit on everything they do either.
I was not and and we don't know much about what went down other than he was under surveillance.
The authorities probably, have more info that they are not sharing with the public for often safety reasons until all involved have been arrested before another attack happens.
ClosingADoor
Member
We pretty much know their motivations already. And in this case his network also, since he was under surveillance earlier and people were arrested last month who had ties to him. Considering he didn't have explosives or any large weapons, I think there was not that much planning or support going on here.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm not shitting on anything, but if that was a random stop by the Italian police I'm really struggling to see the Europol contribution here.
Random street police controls have nothing to do with europol. Nobody is "shitting" on europol, you're creating a strawman. Someone said "good job europol" and someone replied to that this likely doesn't have anything to do with europol and as such lauding them is off the mark.
Seeing as their "judgement" involved not arresting the guy despite surveillance and an incredibly amount of red flags and instead letting him go on to eventually kill 12 people and wound dozens, yes their judgement should be questioned.
Patrick S.
Banned
Germany is the country that had Google blur the faces on Google Street View. It's the country where you can get in trouble taking a picture of someone who doesn't want his picture taken and where car dashboard cameras are not allowed because privacy. Germans are really paranoid about being photographed or filmed.
source?
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