Fenderputty
Banned
The effects of the TPP were neither here or there for Trump. It played well to rural Americans because trade is hard and confusing. The TPP going down is a shining example of why I fear populism in general.
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Trumps Trade Pullout (TPP) Roils Rural America (Politico)
- Thread starter Piecake
- Start date
The effects of the TPP were neither here or there for Trump. It played well to rural Americans because trade is hard and confusing. The TPP going down is a shining example of why I fear populism in general.
And_Gignac
Member
Stay dead TPP.
As an American, I don't want a lot of our policies spreading over to Europe.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Nothing Trump does will help people and very few things will even be successful. These next few years are going to be rough
Trump doesn't know shit about any of this.
Nothing to lose sleep over. Just another step in the decline of american hegemony.
Yeah you can see this everywhere populism leads. If you look at Brexit a reason for them to leave the EU was to make their own trade deals (Ironically by leaving one of the most influential trading blocs on earth) and get stomped by large countries.
Since Trump FTAs have actually become more popular here in the EU and they've closed to large deals in the past year(Canada and Japan).
Your policies are spread all over the world with or without TPP. Ask anybody in the financial or fiscal world. Well, hopefully Trump will take care of that in the sense that he will fuck any bit of influence US has over the world.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Obama was for it, Trump was against. Simple as that. He doesn't have long term plans, only what will benefit him in the political sphere
The story of his presidency.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Well, tell us something we did not know.
If it leads to the downfall of the US, you are probably for it.
That, and Saint Sanders was for it, which was probably reason enough.
Or, you could be like KingSnake and just come out and say it.
Send a mad man out on the world stage and be shocked if people turn elsewhere. American exports are going to take a hammering the next few years. One of the most dangerous things that can happen to america is going to happen, the rest of the world figuring out they don't really need us.
Vicetrailia
Banned
I agree. That said Obama put the country first big-time to other nations chagrin...while still working with them. Master negotiator.
alexthekid
Member
Hehe Im not sure if im actually unclear or IF you think my stance is stupid (or maybe both).
I see a political system with two dominating parties and no matter which of these parties that has been in power the same trend with rural and working class americans have been falling behind. Im not saying that both parties are the same or just as bad. But they have been unable, or unwilling (they might see it as impossible) to change the trajectory.
Having this group of people supporting anti establishment candidates in larger numbers doesnt seem like a surprise. Even though Trump is a far worse candidate also för their material interests.
andythinkpad
Member
Well Hilary would have canned TPP anyway.
You want to blame somebody, blame Obama who adopted an economic policy that's about 10 year too late (in countering against China's economic weight).
You want to blame somebody, blame Obama who adopted an economic policy that's about 10 year too late (in countering against China's economic weight).
As European, that's the very reason I was against the TPP and kinda hoped that the US was stupid enough to pull out of it.
Thank god it happened, God knows our farmers need any help they can get.
Everything in that deal sucked from my perspective, it's literally awesome the thing fell through.
Seriously this is a glorious time and an opportunity of a lifetime!
It's always like this, a bad US president is great for the EU and vice versa.
That was true for Clinton as well as Bushes.
It's still true for Obama and Trump.
Thank god it happened, God knows our farmers need any help they can get.
Everything in that deal sucked from my perspective, it's literally awesome the thing fell through.
Seriously this is a glorious time and an opportunity of a lifetime!
It's always like this, a bad US president is great for the EU and vice versa.
That was true for Clinton as well as Bushes.
It's still true for Obama and Trump.
polyh3dron
Banned
The US remaining in the TPP was not on the ballot.
VendettaRed07
Member
You can?
The only person who even attempted to make an argument in favor of free trade the whole election was John Kasich and during the debates he actually did a pretty good job of it.
Hillary should have just accepted the fact that nobody on earth believed she was against free trade and honestly made an attempt to sell it and the TPP. It made no sense to break from Obama with it. You can blame Sanders all you want for exciting anti-trade sentiment on the left but the person who actually got the nomination did nothing but contribute to it. And not just her; the party in general did a horrible job of communicating why TPP was a good thing and why they were pushing it. You can't exactly complain that anti trade sentiments gain traction when literally NONE of your elected officials are doing anything to convince people otherwise
It's not a wish, but a conclusion based on the past 7-8 months of US foreign policy.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It's far more difficult to explain why Free Trade is good, than to just say it's bad.
Sanders is most to blame about the situation.
Of course, this is just referring to Free Trade talk in the Dem party, I don't think Clinton's position on Free Trade did not affect the outcome in any appreciable way.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
They won't learn anything. You think this is the first time republicans have shat on the white lower class?
The whole reason people justified Sanders's run was to push Clinton to the left.
That actually happened so you can't then turn around and say that Clinton would have changed that part of her policies on her own.
I agree to some extent, but you are appealing to people who can't think out of a paper bag, so coming with nuanced arguments about free trade is not something you can sell to a group shouting "No TPP" but having no idea what TPP is.
I do agree that no one believed her so it was a dumb position to take.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Nah. No one was listening due to the "faults" of TPP. Republicans hated it because of Obama, and liberals hated it because it gave corporations the power to sue countries over shit like new regulation. There was nothing they could do to massage that over in the public eye. And also, other countries had a bone to pick for their own personal gains as well. There's no way to massage it.
The issue in the US is that first, (it seems to me that) people are horribly ill-equipped to parse political language and truly understand what policies mean for them. The fact that people there regularly vote against establishing unions in many industries, even while laboring under terribly unfair conditions compared with other western countries, is just one product of that.
The thing that makes it completely hopeless, is the huge factor of influencing politics through unlimited amounts of money. In fact, "money as speech" is essentially a constitutional foundations of US politics for now, thanks to your courts.
So, actually having good representation in state and federal levels, is probably not impossible, but more like the exception to the rule.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It gave companies the power to sue over violations to the trade agreement.
Well if you scream that you don't want cake, as cake is unfair to your pie!
Then all the other children will have your piece by enlarging their own
.PS: As well as eat some of your pie when they have the chance
.
newtypepilot
Member
Trump must've thought the TPP is the PPT
BlackLagoon
Member
AFAIK the only one advocating "neutral courts" in agreements like this is the EU, this was in fact one of the big points of contention with the US over TTIP.
The US favors the long standing system originally set up to protect western corporations' investments in the newly freed colonies post WWII. It means the cases are determined by a three lawyer panel, one from each party and an arbiter from the World Bank. And they do not make any formal legal rulings, they just assign a fine to the country in accordance to the losses incurred by the company that filed the suit. For poorer countries these fines can be completely devastating, to the point where enacting positive health (against tobacco companies for example) or environmental reforms becomes very risky in spite of the country wanting/needing them.
Not all of the TPP was good.
Theres more to come.
If Trump really starts to put tariffs on european goods the EU will target primarily agricultural and rural states with counter tariffs if you believe leaked documents.
VendettaRed07
Member
She had the opportunity to, in the debates as she did with many other subjects, push back and argue why it was a good thing. She debated Bernie on everything and pushed back against much of his far left agenda on basically every other issue but never defended TPP once. I'm not blaming her for not doing that but I also take issue with people saying "Bernie's fault". If it's too hard to counter anti-trade rhetoric, thenTrump would have made her oppose if that's the case even if Sanders chose not to run
.Detective.
Member
Looks like Iowa won't be able to reap from the vote that they sowed.
VendettaRed07
Member
Sanders really did nothing other than excite anti-trade sentiment that had already been there out of the massive failure of both parties to explain what the trade agreements we have made have been good deals for the country. This goes back decades really. Obama made the same sort of appeals in 2008 as well. If none of our politicians are ready to explain why trade is good I don't see how Sanders is to blame for doing what they essentially all do as well. i.e. Run against it then ignore it/ sign more complicated deals once in office.
NAFTA destroyed the working-man factory job. If we didn't have that we could have protected our blue collar workers, and we would be privileged to pay 5 times the price to do it.
Getting rid of NAFTA and the TPP is the first step to getting those jobs back (that are never coming back)
Of course not. That would be ridiculous.
But on the whole it was a giant win for the US. It's stunning that we pulled out.
Vicetrailia
Banned
It was China entering the WTO that the great exodus began, granted it was already moving that with way Mexico entering previously and etc. Still yet even more significant is automation.
I was being sarcastic, and channeling the idiots who think NAFTA took their job away. And because they think NAFTA took their job away, then they now don't like the TPP because they apparently want the rest of us to massively subsidize their uncompetitive place of work
The only way we are seeing those jobs come back is with massive tariffs, which would mean a huge increase in the prices of manufactured goods for the rest of us.
Fenderputty
Banned
I never said it was ...
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
What was the finalized language on that anyways?
Also, kudos for actually typing out an argument that was not talking points.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You let governments sue other governments, on behalf of the corporations concerned, no?
That seems like it would needlessly create constant conflicts with the other governments and people living in that nation that you are trying to create a good relationship with.
Better to let corporations have the ability to sue and let them take on all (or most) of the ire and negatively that comes with suing a nation.
You also don't have to worry about that nation retaliating in a different way against you that is not prohibited by the treaty.
it's hard to argue for free trade when the benefit is not immediately visible and on a bigger picture while the deficit while smaller is hard hitting to a section of the population. I don't think any blue collar worker would be happy with the argument that it would be better for the overall economy in the next 10 years but you will prob lose your job next year
kaname-san
Member
Obama never did a good job of publicly explaining why this was a good deal. He would just say the opponents were wrong and leave it at that.