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Trump & Hillary Clinton gender swapped by NYU professors. Are surprised by results
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Rockandrollclown
lookwhatyou'vedone
Because a lot of people don't vote on policy. There's a reason there are undecideds. If they voted on policy they would have decided a long time ago. Undecideds vote for the more charismatic person every time.
Exactly. I kept waiting for Hillary to get passionate, to be offended, to do more than just smile and talk about policy. With all the jokes about Rubio being a robot, I mean for crying out loud, she needed some warmth. I know, I know, "she never wins," but I really don't know what so many saw in her personality.
old manatee
Banned
Lol you didn't even bother to read it before considering your preconceived notions to be confirmed as 'real'.
The whole likability debate kind of falls flat to me when I don't see anything likeable about Trump whatsoever. He's a sleazy, stupid, narcissistic, immature jackass. That's not even accounting for all the terrible shit he did, nor is it accounting for all the stupid shit he's said. If I were to watch one of his speeches with new eyes, I'd be treated to a man who clearly has no idea what he's talking about, makes up lies, and seems only capable of talking in soundbites. I see his ability to rile up crowd's less an indicator of his marketing talent and more a fault of the people listening to him.
His bid for president is one of the most transparent scams I've ever seen, and I attribute America falling for it more due to the more obvious reasons of people being hilariously misinformed by the media and GOP to what the true natures of the two candidates are.
His bid for president is one of the most transparent scams I've ever seen, and I attribute America falling for it more due to the more obvious reasons of people being hilariously misinformed by the media and GOP to what the true natures of the two candidates are.
kame-sennin
Member
Watching the rehearsal, I felt waaaay different that I expected to. I almost immediately wanted to punch the guy in the face and I was actually rooting for the lady. I'm sure it helps that they were arguing about NAFTA (Trump's most defendable position), but that guy made me so angry and I was really glad when she started smacking him down. I think the takeaway for me is that when the baggage of the real life person is taken away, I can see some of the appeal of Trump. Hilary's performance comes off even more smug coming from a man.
That was one of Trump's strongest moments in the debates, which I'm sure is why it was chosen. I'd love to see the full performance.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Same here.
I agree, its particularly easy to see it over the past couple of decades. The person with the "most character" is typically the one that runs away with these things. You had Clinton beat Bush Sr and Bob Dole. Bush Jr beat Al Gore and John Kerry. Obama beat McCain and Romney. I absolutely believe that if Dems want to hold Trump to a single term they'll need to offer up someone who can talk a bigger game and has wit sharp enough to cut through any of Trump's childish defenses.
El_Tiguere
Member
Male Hillary would STILL have the Foundation baggage, the Libya baggage, the pay-to-play baggage, the illegal server baggage, etc. etc.
My main take away from this article based on this:
I think Hillary got a pass in 2016 mostly BECAUSE she was a woman, and it was "Her Turn" after the "breaking of the glass ceiling" was spoiled back in 2008.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
This is absurd.
You just can't excuse the racist, con man, and sexist vocabulary that Trump has. Look at the female Trump sycophants he has supporting his campaign/presidency.
You just can't excuse the racist, con man, and sexist vocabulary that Trump has. Look at the female Trump sycophants he has supporting his campaign/presidency.
Except that attempts to disentangle the situation from its context. Positivism is not the answer.
The debates were not the only issue, but obvious she could have done better in the debates. Besides the same issue that plagued her campaign generally were at play in the debate.
This is a great post. I agree with you.
Camp Freddie
Member
That was an interesting look at the unexpected effects of unconscious bias, especially how female Trump seemed 'better' than real Trump.
I think it's because I have a natural tendency to hate bullies, and Trump always comes across as a bully in a way that a woman saying the same things to a man does not.
Also, the woman playing Trump has a confident assertive voice. Donald Trump's voice is always boorish and patronising.
My guess is that to a lot of Trump supporters who hate liberal elitists, Hillary sounds like the bully because she's such a "know-it-all". Whereas to most liberals, Hilary's depth of knowledge is seen as an asset.
I think it's because I have a natural tendency to hate bullies, and Trump always comes across as a bully in a way that a woman saying the same things to a man does not.
Also, the woman playing Trump has a confident assertive voice. Donald Trump's voice is always boorish and patronising.
My guess is that to a lot of Trump supporters who hate liberal elitists, Hillary sounds like the bully because she's such a "know-it-all". Whereas to most liberals, Hilary's depth of knowledge is seen as an asset.
Women carry sexist notions too whether they realize it or not.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Just a reminder: Hillary received ~3,000,000 more votes. We know why she lost and it isn't because she lacked charisma only revealed once gender swapped.
I honestly don't buy that Male Hillary would have been hounded as much as Hillary actually was for any of those. You're not going to embody Hillary the person/candidate by an actor reciting her debate performance. You cannot separate Hillary from her gender, especially if you're going to try speculate how any of those scandals would have affected a male.
There are a large number of reasons why she lost. The electoral college shouldn't be the only explanation. The dems could have won the college.
It makes for an interesting scenario because if Clinton is intentionally smiling more to appease people who found her cold and inauthentic, transplanting behavior meant to conform to expectations for females is naturally going to seem jarring coming from a male because a male candidate wouldn't have received the same pressure in the first place.
It's an interesting experiment to see how people react to things without the baggage the individual candidates brought, but it's hugely unsurprising that a male carrying himself the way Clinton did in the debates goes over poorly, because a large part of Clinton's persona in the debates is attempting to conform to criticism that stemmed from gender-specific expectations in the first place. If Trump himself had done the forced smile thing Clinton was doing in reaction to criticisms of not smiling enough, it would have seem phony and inauthentic and hurt him in the public view. He just never did, because it wasn't a concern for him.
I would like to see female Trump's take on some of his more incoherent and meandering responses, because I'm curious to compare her delivery to his.
andythinkpad
Member
The academia needs reenactment to figure out Hillary has charisma of a tree?
The Greek Freak
Member
I know too many people who's opinion of Hilary went from "She's boring but she will be fine as Pres" to "Fuck Clinton, but at least she isn't crazy ass Trump".
Her campaign was a condescending, dishonest, naive trainwreck.
If some milquetoast like Romney or hell even Jeb Bush were the nominee Clinton would've lost in a land slide.
This isn't necessarily related to the topic but I will always wonder how Hillary would have done if she had the same demeanor and persona she had during her campaign in 2008. Nothing and no one was going to hold her back and she had no problem conveying that to people. But she also lost that primary (according to many critics, that felt she wasn't "feminine" enough). The Hillary in 2016 was softer, less vicious, and somewhat more relaxed. I can see how in her head, a plead for unity was better than the battling cry of destruction that was Trump.
People seemed to like the ruthless Hillary more than abuela. Anecdotally, at least.
People seemed to like the ruthless Hillary more than abuela. Anecdotally, at least.
Those two are definitely new. You could never convince me she would lose to Romney just because. If Romney were the nominee the national discussion would not have been dominated with half the bullshit it was and would be far more substantive. Would be interested to know what drove those people into the Fuck Clinton camp.
robotzombie
Member
I love this post so much
Dash_Riprock
Member
Looking at some of the replies here (some of whom clearly didn't actually read the OP), yes.
The bit about people not hating female Trump as much both intrigued and horrified me...
Much like Male Hillary, a Female Trump doesn't make sense because Trump is much more than just his demeanor. His entire history makes up how people react to his demeanor. I don't think there's much to gain from forcing a gender swap when both are so defined by Trump being male and Hillary being female.
mrhyderager
Member
So maybe we can stop saying sexism is what made people dislike Hillary?
whyamihere
Banned
Yeah, I actually think the best thing about the OP is removing the baggage from Trump. I can see the appeal without going into the debates already thinking that Trump is a garbage human. There's a cadence that I understand and I get that might appeal to people.
We already knew that Hillary had no charisma, which is a problem. Wonks don't win elections, even if they might make good presidents (of which I'm sure that Hillary, Kerry, Gore, Dukakis would've all been fine presidents). We lucked out with Obama who was both charismatic and a policy wonk while Bill was more of the former than the later.
It's a good lesson going into 2020.
I... don't know if that's necessarily the right take away?
I have my faith in humanity crushed every single Black Friday.
Sexism is a root cause of things teaching girls to do things like the artificial smiling.
Waddle Dee
Member
Yeah, I didn't really notice her constant smiling during the run but in the aftermath I've noticed it and it bothers me. Doesn't help that she, y'know, lost... Maybe if she won I wouldn't have ever noticed but it's certainly off putting in hindsight.
Like others have said, Trump is a salesman. He was basically a shady car dealer trying to sell you on a broken down piece of crap. Sadly, these obvious shady tactics work on the average person.
mrhyderager
Member
Honestly, to me, it's spelled out here. Despite either candidate's history, Hillary's personality comes off as not very genuine and unlikable even if a man is wearing it.
I can also say that I didn't care much for Trump's personality on either of them.
whyamihere
Banned
Except it's also spelled out that a lot of the qualities ascribed to MaleHillary were identified as traditionally female or and that he "seemed gay". It's more complicated than "sexism is fake."
It's not to say that every criticism of Hillary Clinton is sexist. Saying that is stupid. But are you trying to argue that there weren't criticisms of Hillary that were sexist? That would be hard.
LizardKing
Member
Clinton is not a good politician. She never was. A large block of the country has known this for 25 years. She has always been unlikable to a huge amount of people, and that's not because she is a woman. Nice to see someone developed a technique to show her supporters what they were missing and who couldn't understand why people would think that without using the sexism scapegoat. (Saying Clinton detractors are sexist period, same as the scapegoat of saying Trump supporters are racist period. Both bullshit.)
I do think she would be a good executive btw, just not a good saleswoman.
I do think she would be a good executive btw, just not a good saleswoman.
darkhunger
Member
Funny enough the only dude to buck that trend since debates began to be televised almost 60 years ago was Nixon, who had a personality of a paranoid dead fish but (barely) won against the more charismatic Hubert Humphrey.
In every other general election the guy with the more likeable or charismatic personality wins.
Yet history keeps repeating itself, and the primaries keep ending up with boring candidates winning.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I mean, that was one of the few moments he looked decent(to some, but he is who he is, you can't fix that) in the actual debate, had folks worried it was gonna be a long night for Clinton and all that nonsense, which was of course not what happened.
He spent much of those debates espousing verbal diarrhea, looking and sounding like a fucking asshole, and playing defense ("not a puppet, not a puppet", etc...)
He's got scumbag 'charisma' that played real nice to a certain subset of men, the type of folks that hear "I can do anything, like grab 'em by the pussy" and give a winking nod. That's what put him over the top, while still having horrific approval ratings and getting stomped in the popular vote.
it's charisma for idiots, and that 'charisma' is all they care about.
(and sexism absolutely played a part, regardless of this little experiment, lol. To even suggest it didn't mean you don't actually exist in reality, or at least a rural, small town reality. The shit I heard from men AND woman alike, some of whom even voted for Obama(things can also change real quick in a span of 4 years, go figure) would make your damn skin crawl)
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
The charisma discussion is funny because it reminds me that papa Bush was probably the most technocratic elite manager type president we had but Dukakis was so stunningly bad at not sounding like a research paper that he still came across as more personable and in touch.
What I really took away from this clip (though female Trump was interesting, divorced from other contexts his mannerism aren't as obnoxious) is how bad the "buy my book" line really was.
What I really took away from this clip (though female Trump was interesting, divorced from other contexts his mannerism aren't as obnoxious) is how bad the "buy my book" line really was.
Hard to make people like you when they don't like women.
IRL Hillary won all the debates pretty solidly, which runs contrary to some of the assumptions set up in the OP. There is far too much personal baggage associated with both candidates for this to be a useful or instructive experiment; it seems like a complete waste of time to say absolutely nothing.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
How anyone can see Trump as likable though...
theignoramus
Member
Clintons best speech was the alt-right speech she gave about Breitbart and Steve Bannon. She should've used the wit and humor of that speech alot more often because it was only time I can remember her having a shred of charisma.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
...You think like him, or hate others that much to delude yourself. (and in the process for many so-called religious folks, encapsulate as much hypocrisy as humanly possible)
Dash_Riprock
Member
Ask the people who got him elected.
Her delivery is honestly faster and more intelligible than Trump's delivery, which is rife with sniffling, butthole lips and pauses so his brain can catch up to his mouth.
The guy adopts Hillary's more feminine mannerisms and cadence more accurately.
I can understand why she would seem more persuasive, because's she's giving a better performance than Trump did.
The guy adopts Hillary's more feminine mannerisms and cadence more accurately.
I can understand why she would seem more persuasive, because's she's giving a better performance than Trump did.
what, you didn't love the "trumped up trickle down" line? Or the "go to my website to see why he's wrong" line?
I imagine a lot of the traits that make Trump dislikeable to GAF is what makes him likeable to his voters (and the opposite might be true as well), and this still counts as charisma regardless of your personal tastes in people. Charisma isn't necessarily universal although Obama came pretty close to it, which was a big advantage.
She does a lot better with small crowds and in more personal settings. She's not an orator like her husband or President Obama, but her intelligence and command over the issues always shines though (IMO at least).
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