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[nynt9]

So you're stealing harmlessly small things to stick it to capitalism? Am I reading that right? How is something so small that it's harmless to the employees if you steal them but it's meaningful activism against capitalism at the same time?

 

[Nipo]

Initially, many functions of private enterprise will be handed over to the state, as the state will be the expression of the working class' interests through representatives. This would include functions like organizing the internet, or assigning the bandwidth.

Also, I don't believe money will be completely absent in the beginning of the revolution, but will take on a different form, that of a labor voucher. A quote from wikipedia:



And a quote from Marx regarding the idea:



You're going to have to explain what favors for votes you're thinking of here. There's no money to give them, since labor vouchers are non-transferrable. I can't really think of anything I would consider an unfair vote in this sort of society. People within a commune/collection of producers are going to be voting for what best satisfies their interests.

And you're going to have to elaborate on how we're going backward on production coordination, especially when every producer has open communication with every other producer. Because producers are no longer bound to companies, we're moving backward? The economy is still industrial. We still have the same capability to produce goods as we do today, except goods are produced based on what society needs, not what's profitable.

Are there any good historical examples of the state voluntarily handing over power to the people? You'd be setting up a really tough balancing act of needing a strong enough military to prevent local strongmen/cartels but weak enough it couldn't stage a coup.

Labor vouchers would need to be completely counterfeit proof, ensure the department making them wasn't corrupt, and would likely need a central registrar to make sure every one earned and redeemed is recorded. That is making a ton of work that adds nothing to the economy.

If 51% of people vote to institute private property and capitalism does the experiment end?

 

[Gnome Scat]

Well that's pretty scummy.

 

[Pau]

I wonder if my cousin had a tumblr for this. Can't feel to good about a community that glorifies it, especially when she had to deal with possible deportation when she was caught. So unnecessary.

So you're stealing harmlessly small things to stick it to capitalism? Am I reading that right? How is something so small that it's harmless to the employees if you steal them but it's meaningful activism against capitalism at the same time?

Yeah, I don't quite get that part. In this case, hurting the system entails hurting the people in it. And it's definitely not hurting the people at the top.

 

[Oriel]

Capitalism, in the form we know of it today, has been around for maybe 400-500 years at best.

And while not useful as a defense for shoplifting, jackissocool wasn't exactly wrong with how a capitalist society has allowed us to become complacent with Wal-Mart (and others) profiting off disenfranchised countries, slave workers, etc.

"Capitalism may have its problems" is exactly why we can't immediately discount any and all other possible options. Even if we never intend to implement any of them, they still highlight the flaws we have and allow us to search for possible solutions.

When you have a better system to replace Capitalism then please let me know. And no, Communism ain't that system.

The problem with your perception is that you view capitalism and communism in extremes. Why does our society need to be capitalism? Can it not be a mixture of the positive elements of everything? Strict capitalism (or at least a strong focus on capitalism) is simply not working, and it's obviously the case.

Capitalism with state regulations is still capitalism. If a society allows to private individuals to engage in a monetary transaction without the involvement of the state then that society is capitalist in nature. You're equating capitalism with Wal-Mart and other big corpo's when it's nothing of the sort.

No, it's really not. You're conflating capitalism with exchanging of goods. Humans have exchanged goods for 10,000 years, but the primary aspects of capitalism- ie private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit, straight off of wikipedia- is very recent. No more than 400-500 or so years old.

What, so traders in ancient Sumerian cities were actually employees of some large state enterprise? Get real!

And no, modern libertarianism is not compariable to communism.

I never said it was.

It is not in my best interest to remove the state's functions and regulations and thusly allow corporations to run rampant, especially considering corporations have no real interest other than maximization of profit, damn the consequences. Communism strives to achieve what's in the best interest of the mass majority of humans, those who work in any means of production and are not receiving the full value created by their labor.

What if I told you it's entirely possible to have active state regulation and oversight of big businesses in a capitalist society? You see, that's the problem with you people, you're not content with just mere regulation, you want to burn everything down and rebuild some utopian society utilising some ideology that has NEVER worked in the history of all mankind, and damn the consequences. It's like a form of battered wife syndrome at work. Clinging on to a bankrupt ideology despite repeatedly failing. If Communism never worked in Russia, or China, or Vietnam, or Laos, or Cambodia, or North Korea, or East Germany, or Poland, or Czechoslovakia, or Hungary, or Romania, or Bulgaria, or Yugoslavia, or Yemen, or Afghanistan, what in the hell makes you believe it will work in the US or Western Europe? And please don't give me that shit about that not being "real" communism.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I really hope all these scumbags get thrown in prison. As someone who works at retail I'm going to unequivocally say straight up fuck you. You aren't "taking it to capitalism" you're hurting all the employees who work at the store. You are quite literally taking money from these people. Many retail chains factor in things like the amount of shrink in store inventory into any bonuses paid out to employees. And anyone who tries to justify this kind of shit is nothing more than selfish scum.

But according to our resident petty thief expert, jackissocool, big companies don't bother punishing employees for shoplifting and it's a victimless crime!

 

[NewGame]

As someone who managed a small retail business I hope they all get large enraged hemorrhoids.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Are there any good historical examples of the state voluntarily handing over power to the people? You'd be setting up a really tough balancing act of needing a strong enough military to prevent local strongmen/cartels but weak enough it couldn't stage a coup.

Labor vouchers would need to be completely counterfeit proof, ensure the department making them wasn't corrupt, and would likely need a central registrar to make sure every one earned and redeemed is recorded. That is making a ton of work that adds nothing to the economy.

If 51% of people vote to institute private property and capitalism does the experiment end?

No, there aren't. None in any communist countries that I know of, anyway. I should further specify what I think the military for the state will look like; the military is primarily going to be made up of voluntary militias from various communes across the globe who have an interest in keeping communism safe from opposing forces and crushing those opposing forces when possible. The 'state' as I imagine it is mostly administrative, in that its made up of representatives from various communes and service providers. It performs some economic functions that the working class is initially not knowledgeable enough to perform, but loses relevance as the working class gains knowledge on how to perform those tasks. The state itself does not have a dedicated military, the producers it serves are its military, who act when it is necessary to do so to defend their interests.

You're right that labor vouchers have some logistics to run through. However, I don't think the working class would object to the idea of having many resources allocated to the assurance that the system works if they believe it's a necessity to the economy. Perhaps it would work like so- you might have a credit card like object that you can scan at some station at the end of a work day to receive a value of 'labor currency' equal to the labor you performed. Then, when you go to the stockcade, you would grab whatever amount of goods you wanted, scan your card, and then the equivalent amount of labor currency would be removed, and a record is added to whatever. That solves your last problem, the redeeming and recording. The servers that handle the adding and removing of labor currency would be state-run initially. Does this sound reasonable?

And yes, it would end. Assuming that 51% of people has military power over the 49%, it certainly would. Why they would want to back to a system where they are not compensated the full value of their labor though, is beyond me.

 

[Demoskinos]

But according to our resident petty thief expert, jackissocool, big companies don't bother punishing employees for shoplifting and it's a victimless crime!

Gotta make whatever logic up you can so you can sleep at night.

 

[Mr.Mike]

lol econ 101 is bullshit and basing your entire views on it is a joke

Economics gets no respect.

Anyway, these big chains like Wal-Mart are all ultimately owned by people. Some of these people are pretty rich, but it's also a lot of pensions, endowments, 401ks and so on. You're really not much being much of a robinhood when you're stealing from "corporations".

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Economics gets no respect.

im just saying basing your entire economic views on one econ 101 class is absurd and lead you to become some kind of right wing libertarian

 

[hawk2025]

im just saying basing your entire economic views on one econ 101 class is absurd and lead you to become some kind of right wing libertarian

Well, duh. Obviously I meant it as a starting point.

At the very least it makes one start thinking about incentives. A good 101 class these days will be very clear on the limitations and assumptions made and will back up the facts with stylized data, including where it fails.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

I've always said that if I end a day in jail for organizing against capitalism (read: not shoplifting), I'll know that I did the most good I could do that day.

holy shit the edge

 

[perfectchaos007]

Is the shoplifting community mostly women?

 

[ThisGuy]

"girl, do you even lift?"

Lol

 

[jackissocool]

Gotta make whatever logic up you can so you can sleep at night.

No, you're totally right - shoplifting can have a negative impact on retail workers, which is why I haven't done it in a year or more. I've thought about that - ultimately the workers are my biggest concern. A few years ago I thought shoplifting was some sort rebellion and one of the reasons I realized it wasn't was because of exactly what you're saying. But I've never talked to a retail worker about it. Me and all my friends work in food or service and never deal with shoplifting.

I'll stand by my view that it is not wrong to steal from Wal-Mart from a "but what about Wal-Mart?" perspective, and I could give two shits about the legality of it. But you make a good point about how it affects the retail workers. What exactly are the policies?

The one thing I would say is that the vast majority of retail theft is done by the employees. How does that fit in?

holy shit the edge

Yes please tell all the people struggling against power that they're just being edgy. What a fucking childish response.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

What, so traders in ancient Sumerian cities were actually employees of some large state enterprise? Get real!

I never said it was.

What if I told you it's entirely possible to have active state regulation and oversight of big businesses in a capitalist society? You see, that's the problem with you people, you're not content with just mere regulation, you want to burn everything down and rebuild some utopian society utilising some ideology that has NEVER worked in the history of all mankind, and damn the consequences. It's like a form of battered wife syndrome at work. Clinging on to a bankrupt ideology despite repeatedly failing. If Communism never worked in Russia, or China, or Vietnam, or Laos, or Cambodia, or North Korea, or East Germany, or Poland, or Czechoslovakia, or Hungary, or Romania, or Bulgaria, or Yugoslavia, or Yemen, or Afghanistan, what in the hell makes you believe it will work in the US or Western Europe? And please don't give me that shit about that not being "real" communism.

To the bolded, I'm struggling to see where you got that from my post. Could you elaborate?

You did compare communism to libertarianism, saying it 'makes as much sense as' libertarianism. Straight from your previous post.

You're correct that you can have a great amount of state regulation while still keeping the basic tenets of capitalism upheld. I don't disagree with that. But it should be clear at this point I don't just want to regulate businesses. That's what the modern socialist wants to do, someone who prescribes to notions of social democracy. I want to eradicate the power that corporations have today by returning their property back to those who built an keep it running. Those are the people who deserve the fruits of that business.

I have to wonder why you think anyone wants to burn anything down. Perhaps you didn't mean this in a literal sense, which is fine, but seeing communism as a "burning down" doesn't make much sense to me. It's a shift in the balance of power. The world's appearance doesn't dramatically change overnight, those who are in charge does.

Just because you called out the 'not real communism' argument doesn't mean it's not true, though. Those countries were communist in ideal, but in practice they formed state tyrannies that did not uphold the worker's best interest at all points in time. And I don't actually believe that communism would work in the US or Europe, but I believe that only because US and Europe are losing productive facilities left and right to third world countries. Communism certainly won't be working well in a location that can't produce many types of goods for itself due to lack of factories there. But ideologically, (as in, gaining mass traction with a majority of the working class in the US) communism could certainly work in the United States. Probably not any time soon, as seen by the complete disregard for the ideas of it inside of this thread, but in time. It will probably take a few more generations before people are very much interested in an alternative to capitalism, but the time will come where capitalism is overthrown. This has been the case for every economic ideology since humanity's birth. It will be the case this time, as well. Communism will work because the working class will have learned from the mistakes of past communist countries. Invoking the Soviet Union and other countries as a "It failed these times, stop trying!" shows an unwillingness to examine past mistakes or ponder alternatives where we don't make those same mistakes. It's an unwillingness to progress humanity to a more equitable distribution of wealth and production.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Is the shoplifting community mostly women?

I don't know about Tumblr, but I've worked in retail for 8 years and can say that the ones who get caught seem to be, more often than not, at least in the areas where I've lived and worked.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Oooh, Boosting! Finally a NeoGAF conversation I'm interested in!

 

[travisbickle]

Communism is about the state allocating resources capitalism is about the free market allocating resources. One assumes people will do what is best for the good of everyone and the other assumes people will do what is in their own best interest. It is no surprise the latter wins.

Communism is the common ownership of the means of production, Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Both have needed the state to function in practice, neither do in theory.

Neither makes any assumptions, individuals makes assumptions based on their realities of the societies they live in.

Like shoplifting, it's done by individuals based on their reality. It doesn't need, and shouldn't have, a fan page.

 

[VanWinkle]

How utterly bizarre. I guarantee these people have never worked retail in their lives. You quickly learn to dislike people like that. I have worked at Walmart for six years, and one of the big things that affect our quarterly bonuses and the overall well-being of the store is theft, and Walmart is one of the biggest retail stores in the world, so nobody can say "it doesn't affect the little guy". To see these people parade the fact that they make others lives worse is just depressing.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Well, after learning about "pro-ana" communities (communities that engage in, and encourage, anorexia), and worse things, I guess it's not shocking that pro-shoplifting communities exist.

Why would a PS4 not exist without capitalism?

lol, seriously?

I never understood how tumblr works but now I know it's shit lol.

Tumblr is... a photo/blogging platform. You're being a bit ridiculous.

 

[Secret Owl]

Before you judge, make sure you aren't somebody who pirates loads of new or "available-for-purchace/well-emulated" games that you actually sink decent time into.

But yeah, this is nuts. I understand the ethical paradox of stealing to "get by" (especially for people with kids or those who grow up in severely unjust circumstances.) I also understand the (less dire) mentality of "I am downloading this software/album/etc to see if I want to buy it." However, this just looks like tween thrill-seeking. What's worse is that they're trying to justify their selfishness with some communal moral-code. Lifting a tank top isn't going to bring down the GOP. If that were the case, my car would be filled with poached tank tops.

At least pirates around here usually keep it to themselves. Have you no shame, Tumblr?

Spoiler

(sometimes I go to tumblr, for specific people)

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Well, duh. Obviously I meant it as a starting point.

At the very least it makes one start thinking about incentives. A good 101 class these days will be very clear on the limitations and assumptions made and will back up the facts with stylized data, including where it fails.

fair. ive just run into too many "ive taken econ 101 i know how it all works!11" people lately and it's tiresome.

 

[Syriel]

Yes please tell all the people struggling against power that they're just being edgy. What a fucking childish response.

Shoplifting is not "struggling against power."

Shoplifting is the selfish enrichment of the individual above all else.

It's actually a very narcissistic thing to do because it is all about making your personal, individual life better at the expense of others.

 

[jackissocool]

Shoplifting is not "struggling against power."

Shoplifting is the selfish enrichment of the individual above all else.

It's actually a very narcissistic thing to do because it is all about making your personal, individual life better at the expense of others.

If you'd see what I was responding to I specifically called out shoplifting as NOT struggling against power.

For like the fucking thousandth time.

 

[travisbickle]

lol, seriously?

You don't think we'll want stuff to entertain ourselves within a society not run under capitalism? Tetris was made by a Russian under socialism on a government program. And all capitalism did to it was have companies fight over licensing rights with a few losing a shed-load of money

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

oh no, rich kleptomaniacs making rationalisations why it's okay to put other people down... why, I do declare I never expected that.

Anyone remember that research where it turned out being rich makes you more immoral?

 

[M0nochromatic]

oh no, rich kleptomaniacs making rationalisations why it's okay to put other people down... why, I do declare I never expected that.

Anyone remember that research where it turned out being rich makes you more immoral?

Money is power in our world. Power corrupts people if it is unchecked.

And the rich are the least checked people I can think of.

 

[adamsappel]

How utterly bizarre. I guarantee these people have never worked retail in their lives. You quickly learn to dislike people like that. I have worked at Walmart for six years, and one of the big things that affect our quarterly bonuses and the overall well-being of the store is theft, and Walmart is one of the biggest retail stores in the world, so nobody can say "it doesn't affect the little guy". To see these people parade the fact that they make others lives worse is just depressing.

But most theft is actually done by employees.

 

[Toxi]

Some of these people are trolling.

But I guarantee some of them aren't, and that's incredibly disturbing. That people are willing to freely admit to illegal activity on the internet shows a crazy level of detachment with their words. It's the same phenomena that makes people feel comfortable shouting racial slurs on social media taken to its extreme.

The Breitbart image addresses made me interested in where these came from.

The mere mention of Tumblr leads to exasperated groans from anyone of sound mind. The microblogging site, now owned by Yahoo!, has played host to a myriad of rabid social justice warriors and third-wave feminists for years.

Straight white males are usually the target for the vicious denizens of Tumblr. But one lesser-known Tumblr clique hunts down not men… but expensive free clothes. That’s right: Tumblr is also a haven for exhibitionist shoplifters, who have colonised the site.

Many of these self-described “lifters” claim that they’re “fighting against capitalism.” They repeat the same, stale idea perpetuated by hippies in the sixties; their lives are made miserable by the great, overwhelming force of “the man.”

Capitalism, they screech, is keeping them down. This corrupt, awful system, which is of course all the fault of “straight white males,” must be destroyed. How? By nicking fancy bras and not paying for lipsticks. I’m not making this up, I promise.

Often, the political systems that Tumblr lifters idolise are based on communism or some variant of anarchism. If you’re not sure what anarcho-communism is, just take a look at Russell Brand; he’s pretty much the personification of it.

But even communism would be no friend to “lifters.” In a communist society, people are expected to put in the same amount of work as every other citizen and would only be allowed the same amount of goods as others.

Stealing bread in the USSR wasn’t tolerated, as thieves were stealing from their comrades. Simply put, if you don’t pull your weight, you’re not a productive member of society and would probably be sent to the gulags for re-education. If the anarchist section of the left took over, the lifters would be the bitches and lackeys of those with strength and guns.

...

Secondly, any blog that goes against the grain of the SJW mentality is shadowbanned by Tumblr Staff. This means that their blogs don’t show up in public searches and they cannot answer messages privately, among other punishments, with CommunismKills being a notable example.

Tumblr’s “freedom of expression” excuse is paper-thin. Does Yahoo! place a higher priority on protecting the feelings of these misguided young social justice warriors than on protecting the property of innocent business owners?

Riveting. Truly straight white males are the biggest victims of shoplifting.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Look at this hellish cesspit. Disgusting!

Congrats, you generalized an insanely diverse social media platform based on one group of yahoos.

GAF Hivemind
Tumblr sucks
Reddit is garbage

Stop making me not generalize Monocle, stop oppressing my biased views!

 

[Iorv3th]

No, you're totally right - shoplifting can have a negative impact on retail workers, which is why I haven't done it in a year or more. I've thought about that - ultimately the workers are my biggest concern. A few years ago I thought shoplifting was some sort rebellion and one of the reasons I realized it wasn't was because of exactly what you're saying. But I've never talked to a retail worker about it. Me and all my friends work in food or service and never deal with shoplifting.

I'll stand by my view that it is not wrong to steal from Wal-Mart from a "but what about Wal-Mart?" perspective, and I could give two shits about the legality of it. But you make a good point about how it affects the retail workers. What exactly are the policies?

The one thing I would say is that the vast majority of retail theft is done by the employees. How does that fit in?

Or you thought it was a way to get stuff you couldn't afford without having to pay any money?

Lets be honest, you stealing from a corporation is helping nobody and is protesting nothing. It only makes you a thief.

The majority used to be done by employees and usually those employees don't keep their jobs for long and get fired/prosecuted for it. Places have very strict regulations in place to prevent employee theft. I know some places bonuses etc are based on hitting certain numbers and if you have losses from shoplifting that is too high, you get fired or lose bonuses etc.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Breitbart's pretty much been more or less supporting groups threatening and harassing others so I think in this case the folks bragging about stealing some material items don't seem that bad in comparison.

 

[BeatnikGunsoo]

I mean while reading this, all I'm thinking of is decently well off white women doing this...

I mean I know that's pretty messed up but that's only thing that makes sense to me if yer a shoplifter and like to brag about it

it's like the highest level of privilege possible

 

[Toxi]

Breitbart's pretty much been more or less supporting groups threatening and harassing others so I think in this case the folks bragging about stealing some material items don't seem that bad in comparison.

It's plenty bad.

But not so bad I won't take the opportunity to laugh at Breitbart for turning it into another bullet point in their crusade against feminism/communism/basic human decency.

 

[todd360]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

What is up with the neogaf haters? How did he find out about this thread if he doesn't read gaf from time to time? Are people just salty about not having an account?

 

[Tangled Up in Blue]

After seeing that "columbiners" is a thing on tumblr, nothing on tumblr surprises me any more.

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be shocked if a "community" popped up on Tumblr (or some other social media site) posting footage of murders they've committed and then defending it as a "lifestyle."

I'm not being sarcastic. I really think that there are people out there who are both that sociopathically detached AND entitled. I mean, if people are already willing to publicly brag about and defend their criminal activity, it's not that far fetched to think that somebody will eventually take it to the extreme.

Hell, maybe someone already has and I just don't know about it.

 

[dity]

The Breitbart image addresses made me interested in where these came from.

Oh god. Can we just add hotlinking to that site to the blacklist already?

What is up with the neogaf haters? How did he find out about this thread if he doesn't read gaf from time to time? Are people just salty about not having an account?

Believe it or not, there's entire websites dedicated just to hating on gaf. What a life you must have to browse those! I won't link to them, but they're basically just endless whining about "the SJWs".

 

[Toxi]

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be shocked if a "community" popped up on Tumblr (or some other social media site) posting footage of murders they've committed and then defending it as a "lifestyle."

I'm not being sarcastic. I really think that there are people out there who are both that sociopathically detached AND entitled. I mean, if people are already willing to publicly brag about and defend their criminal activity, it's not that far fetched to think that somebody will eventually take it to the extreme.

Hell, maybe someone already has and I just don't know about it.

We already had someone explain how and why he was going to commit mass murder on Youtube before he did it.

 

[Cuyejo]

4chan was right Tumblr is nothing but trash.

 

[Qblivion]

So you're stealing harmlessly small things to stick it to capitalism? Am I reading that right? How is something so small that it's harmless to the employees if you steal them but it's meaningful activism against capitalism at the same time?

It isn't. It is a shitty excuse for shitty behavior.

There is probably a moral argument for the whole steal from the rich to give to the poor thing, but they are stealing from the rich and giving to themselves, and the rich may or may not punish their poor employees for it.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Some of these people are trolling.

But I guarantee some of them aren't, and that's incredibly disturbing. That people are willing to freely admit to illegal activity on the internet shows a crazy level of detachment with their words. It's the same phenomena that makes people feel comfortable shouting racial slurs on social media taken to its extreme.


The Breitbart image addresses made me interested in where these came from.


Riveting. Truly straight white males are the biggest victims of shoplifting.

which is why i believe a lot of these outlandish blogs are just troll blogs because conservatives and reactionaries end up in a tiff about them and are easily riled up

 

[Tangled Up in Blue]

We already had someone explain how and why they were going to commit mass murder on Youtube.

Yeah, I know, but that was one lone monster and what I'm talking about is a whole group of people doing horrible things like that and then defending their "lifestyle choices" from the "haters." I honestly don't think we're that far from it.

 

[andrerobot]

If you'd see what I was responding to I specifically called out shoplifting as NOT struggling against power.

For like the fucking thousandth time.

Stop shoplifting at Walmart then.




And get a job.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Anyone caught and convicted of shoplifting should legally have to change their name to THIEF in all caps, just like in Link's Awakening.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah, I know, but that was one lone monster and what I'm talking about is a whole group of people doing horrible things like that and then defending their "lifestyle choices" from the "haters." I honestly don't think we're that far from it.

I mean, Stormfront's been around for as long as I can remember and it's a community dedicated to white supremacy.

And while less malicious than shoplifting, online piracy is a clear example where large communities will defend and advocate for doing something illegal.

So it's not that surprising to see this. Still disturbing though.

 

[The Real Abed]

Oh, sure, now they're just little Tumblr users stealing little toys. But someday, they'll be grown ups stealing stadiums and quarries.

 

[Toxi]

Oh, sure, now they're just little Tumblr users stealing little toys. But someday, they'll be grown ups stealing stadiums and quarries.

Tumblr: The future generation of CEOs and politicians.

 

[The Silver]

online communities don't shock me anymore after learning about poz years back, that was the peak for me.