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[John Rabbit]

As far as I know in the States, it's not illegal in every State, and many are just enforced as school code rather than an actual state or federal level crime.



Up until recently (like 2015 recently), I want to say it was illegal in Texas.

correct, Texas just recently removed the potential for criminal penalties for cases of truancy. however under law in many states, minors are in fact required to be in school. it's a law, hence illegal if you don't go. it's not like skipping one day is going to land you in juvenile hall, but it is technically against the law and can have legal penalties for both parents and kids.

 

[SalvaPot]

I never know what to think when threads turn out like this.

Was it successful because it was so popular?

Or a failure because the content is such shit?

Its a success because it prompted discussion and different views.

You'll have to wait for the GIF's to drop if it becomes a HUGE success.

 

[Jebusman]

I never know what to think when threads turn out like this.

Was it successful because it was so popular?

Or a failure because the content is such shit?

It made it to 8 pages without being locked.

I would consider that a success.

 

[hawk2025]

Democratically

Wait, so we will vote on every little bit?

Like, how much of county X gets of funding versus county Y, every single time?

How many candy bags will be bought for the Halloween party at the DMV?

Wait, do we still have the DMV, or can we assume that the workers will regulate the rules of driving as well? Do we vote on speed limits in every highway and residential street?

Do we vote on monetary policy as well, or is there no need for monetary policy? How do people trade and coordinate on a unit of exchange? Just kinda go with it and do the whole barter thing?

 

[Oriel]

Communism is meant to be the self-activity of a free association of producers, who organize voluntarily for the benefit of themselves, not a state tyranny.

And state tyranny is exactly what all manifestations of Communism end up breeding.

I can't believe we still live in an era where Communism is taken seriously by some people.

 

[Dennis]

Lift everyday, eat clean and get stole.

 

[Jebusman]

And state tyranny is exactly what all manifestations of Communism end up breeding.

I can't believe we still live in an era where Communism is taken seriously by some people.

Hey, look, as nuts as jackissobonkers is, I wouldn't immediately discount communism just because the last few attempts have been fucking abysmal.

It's still a sound political theory and prompts discussions about the shortcomings of the capitalist society we've built up.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Wait, the workers themselves will allocate resources?

How will they go about coordinating it?

I'm not certain on the exact way it would occur, but with the advent of the Internet I don't see how it's an impossibility. Allocating resources takes communication on how much can be produced of a particular commodity for a certain time period, and this can be done easier than ever with the use of the Internet. If a commune is geographically located such that it can produce x y and z commodities, then representatives of factories that produce x y and z commodities could calculate the amount that could be reasonably produced in say a months' time, and coordinate that with the other communes locally or globally. Of course, I'm not absolutely certain this is how it's going to work. I don't think the capitalist revolutionaries in the feudal era knew exactly how capitalism was going to work when they started pondering it either. The working class will learn what's best by acting on the various possibilities for organization and learning what works. In this sense, the 20th centuries actions were a test to see of central planning worked effectively, and it didn't really pan out so well. It wasn't so effective at efficiently planning production and distribution. Another route has to be tried in the future, and that route will probably be one that places much less emphasis on the state controlling what quantities get produced and more on the workers who produce and distribute goods.

 

[blame space]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfEWU0GcC0M

 

[jackissocool]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

Thread is definitely successful.

 

[The Flash]

There's a fandom for everything on Tumblr.

 

[mdubs]

Checked in on this thread after a few hours expecting there would be at least one person on the shoplifting defence force doing their duty here.

Did not disappoint

 

[PSqueak]

Hey, look, as nuts as jackissobonkers is, I wouldn't immediately discount communism just because the last few attempts have been fucking abysmal.

It's still a sound political theory and prompts discussions about the shortcomings of the capitalist society we've built up.

Spoiler

sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[jackissocool]

Thread is definitely successful.

Agreed

 

[hawk2025]

I'm not certain on the exact way it would occur, but with the advent of the Internet I don't see how it's an impossibility. Allocating resources takes communication on how much can be produced of a particular commodity for a certain time period, and this can be done easier than ever with the use of the Internet. If a commune is geographically located such that it can produce x y and z commodities, then representatives of factories that produce x y and z commodities could calculate the amount that could be reasonably produced in say a months' time, and coordinate that with the other communes locally or globally. Of course, I'm not absolutely certain this is how it's going to work. I don't think the capitalist revolutionaries in the feudal era knew exactly how capitalism was going to work when they started pondering it either. The working class will learn what's best by acting on the various possibilities for organization and learning what works. In this sense, the 20th centuries actions were a test to see of central planning worked effectively, and it didn't really pan out so well. It wasn't so effective at efficiently planning production and distribution. Another route has to be tried in the future, and that route will probably be one that places much less emphasis on the state controlling what quantities get produced and more on the workers who produce and distribute goods.

Who will organize the internet? How will you assign bandwidth?

How do you keep people from trading votes for favors?


You are essentially arguing for a barter economy with no large scale production. It's fucking nuts.

One of the first things that will happen under your scenario is the creation of a currency as a means of exchange.

You basically want to go back thousands of years into the past to the days of bartering and production coordination. Except this time, internet, somehow.

 

[Oriel]

Hey, look, as nuts as jackissobonkers is, I wouldn't immediately discount communism just because the last few attempts have been fucking abysmal.

It's still a sound political theory and prompts discussions about the shortcomings of the capitalist society we've built up.

There's nothing sound about Communist theory, it's a failed experiment. Going by the fact every single attempt at creating a Communist society has failed dismally (and usually resulting in famine, war, genocide or all of the above) we can conclude there's no redeeming qualities to it. It makes as much sense as Libertarianism.

Capitalism may have its problems but it's still the best system we've got. And why not, we've maintained Capitalism as an integral part of human society for the best part of 10,000 years now. Capitalism IS the story of humanity.

 

[The Albatross]

Democratically

What if I stole your vote? It's just one vote, right? Or 5 votes? Or.. 5,000 votes?

I mean, surely you've sped before, right?

(btw, I Don't like that somebody made that account and texted/IMed you with it... I don't think that's right.)

 

[LogicalFallacy]

And state tyranny is exactly what all manifestations of Communism end up breeding.

I can't believe we still live in an era where Communism is taken seriously by some people.

Yeah, I certainly agree. I wouldn't want a repeat of those experiments of communism. I hope that's been apparent in my posts. I obviously also believe that communism can be more than just a state tyranny, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. This time we won't allow the vanguard to become the dictator of the working class and keep the soviet councils in control of the state.

If you're not familiar with the namesake of the Soviet Union, you may want to learn so here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_%28council%29

 

[Oriel]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

Welp, Mod-bot is surely not far away now.

 

[SalvaPot]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

Now that is just assholes behavior, please realize that we not sharing the same views as you doesn't mean we hate you or we think you are absolutely wrong.

In my personal opinion, I think that shoplifting is wrong, not in the same way as its wrong to exploit working children to manufacture clothing, but is still wrong.

 

[LyleLanley]

Lol, someone actually made a playstation account just to talk shit about this thread? That's quite possibly the lamest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Oriel]

Yeah, I certainly agree. I wouldn't want a repeat of those experiments of communism. I hope that's been apparent in my posts. I obviously also believe that communism can be more than just a state tyranny, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. This time we won't allow the vanguard to become the dictator of the working class and keep the soviet councils in control of the state.

If you're not familiar with the namesake of the Soviet Union, you may want to learn so here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_%28council%29

I'm well aware of what Soviet's initially were. They're really no different to worker cooperatives that thrive in Western capitalist societies.

 

[The Real Abed]

This is both sad and hilariously sad. Also I hope you people also realize that most of the porn on Tumblr is also stolen from other places.

 

[jackissocool]

Now that is just assholes behavior, please realize that we not sharing the same views as you doesn't mean we hate you or we think you are absolutely wrong.

In my personal opinion, I think that shoplifting is wrong, not in the same way as its wrong to exploit working children to manufacture clothing, but is still wrong.

And that's fine. I'm not pro-shoplifting. I'm just not really anti-shoplifting.

 

[backflip10019]

With that kind of attitude, jackissocool will soon become jailissocool.

 

[Jebusman]

Capitalism may have its problems but it's still the best system we've got. And why not, we've maintained Capitalism as an integral part of human society for the best part of 10,000 years now. Capitalism IS the story of humanity.

Capitalism, in the form we know of it today, has been around for maybe 400-500 years at best.

And while not useful as a defense for shoplifting, jackissocool wasn't exactly wrong with how a capitalist society has allowed us to become complacent with Wal-Mart (and others) profiting off disenfranchised countries, slave workers, etc.

"Capitalism may have its problems" is exactly why we can't immediately discount any and all other possible options. Even if we never intend to implement any of them, they still highlight the flaws we have and allow us to search for possible solutions.

And that's fine. I'm not pro-shoplifting. I'm just not really anti-shoplifting.

The problem is that not being "anti-shoplifting" is really indirectly advocating shoplifting. There isn't a middle ground with it. Regardless of who you are shoplifting from or why you are shoplifting, someone is being harmed, from the lowly workers to the multi billion dollar CEOs. At the end of the day they are still people, and we should be striving to be better people than they are, if they really are so morally corrupt.

 

[jackissocool]

With that kind of attitude, jackissocool will soon become jailissocool.

I've always said that if I end a day in jail for organizing against capitalism (read: not shoplifting), I'll know that I did the most good I could do that day.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

After seeing that "columbiners" is a thing on tumblr, nothing on tumblr surprises me any more.

As in worshiping the shooters? I know a girl who's like that, also loves Jack the Ripper and considers him a feminist hero.

 

[Arkeband]

As in worshiping the shooters? I know a girl who's like that, also loves Jack the Ripper and considers him a feminist hero.

Didn't he uh, chop up women?

Maybe she likes the Spring-heeled Jack, he's fancy. Look at them boots.

 

[darkwing-buck]

As in worshiping the shooters? I know a girl who's like that, also loves Jack the Ripper and considers him a feminist hero.

Yup, I've seen people like that on tumblr theirs a meth-head community as well so it's not surprising theirs a haven of shoplifters on the site lol

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Man this sure got somebody's riled up. Creating a PS account just to harass me.

Crazy, somebody else in another thread brought up that same username and them talking shit out of nowhere.

 

[PSqueak]

As in worshiping the shooters? I know a girl who's like that, also loves Jack the Ripper and considers him a feminist hero.

Jack the ripper....femminist...hero?

I...i don't understand.

 

[hawk2025]

I've always said that if I end a day in jail for organizing against capitalism (read: not shoplifting), I'll know that I did the most good I could do that day.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Didn't he uh, chop up women?

Maybe she likes the Spring-heeled Jack, he's fancy. Look at them boots.

She thinks prostitution is degrading to women and since Jack killed prostitutes, he was pro-women.

 

[jackissocool]

Remember, if you care about something more than yourself, you're edgy.

 

[hawk2025]

Remember, if you care about something more than yourself, you're edgy.

Nope, if you try to resolve your crippling cognitive dissonance by assuming that your ill-researched positions are actually doing good by landing you in jail -- then you are edgy.

You need Econ 101, not jail.

 

[SalvaPot]

As in worshiping the shooters? I know a girl who's like that, also loves Jack the Ripper and considers him a feminist hero.

Wait.

what?

 

[The Albatross]

Remember, if you care about something more than yourself, you're edgy.

Nah, it's just when you try to tell everybody about it, then you're edgy.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Eh, at least it's not stuff like (as was pointed out) Columbine shooter fans/apologists. It's non-violent. I also have the slightest amount of empathy since in my teens I had a brief, nasty period of kleptomania (which thankfully got nipped in the bud, and the most expensive thing I stole was a $20 bill), but ultimately the fact that they're bragging about it and characterizing it as working against capitalism makes them look rather goonish. It feels like a case of people who are relatively well-off doing something for fun that poor people do to survive. This of course isn't to discount people who do it to fulfill an addiction (it can get pretty damn brutal lol), but the culture feels really dodgy. If it was more about being non-judgmental about the behaviour it'd be one thing, but it actively supports and promotes it as a good thing.

She thinks prostitution is degrading to women and since Jack killed prostitutes, he was pro-women.

H... how baffling. I guess your friend is a sex-negative feminist?

There's nothing sound about Communist theory, it's a failed experiment. Going by the fact every single attempt at creating a Communist society has failed dismally (and usually resulting in famine, war, genocide or all of the above) we can conclude there's no redeeming qualities to it. It makes as much sense as Libertarianism.

Capitalism may have its problems but it's still the best system we've got. And why not, we've maintained Capitalism as an integral part of human society for the best part of 10,000 years now. Capitalism IS the story of humanity.

The problem with your perception is that you view capitalism and communism in extremes. Why does our society need to be capitalism? Can it not be a mixture of the positive elements of everything? Strict capitalism (or at least a strong focus on capitalism) is simply not working, and it's obviously the case.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Nope, if you try to resolve your crippling cognitive dissonance by assuming that your ill-researched positions are actually doing good by landing you in jail -- then you are edgy.

You need Econ 101, not jail.

lol econ 101 is bullshit and basing your entire views on it is a joke

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Who will organize the internet? How will you assign bandwidth?

How do you keep people from trading votes for favors?

You are essentially arguing for a barter economy with no large scale production. It's fucking nuts.

One of the first things that will happen under your scenario is the creation of a currency as a means of exchange.

You basically want to go back thousands of years into the past to the days of bartering and production coordination. Except this time, internet, somehow.

Initially, many functions of private enterprise will be handed over to the state, as the state will be the expression of the working class' interests through representatives. This would include functions like organizing the internet, or assigning the bandwidth. Who gets the most bandwidth is subjective, and should be decided by representatives of the working class.

Also, I don't believe money will be completely absent in the beginning of the revolution, but will take on a different form, that of a labor voucher. A quote from wikipedia:

Unlike money, vouchers cannot circulate and are not transferable between people. They are also not exchangeable for any means of production hence they are not transmutable into Capital. Once a purchase is made the labour vouchers are either destroyed or must be re-earned through labour. Therefore, with such a system in place, monetary theft would become impossible.

And a quote from Marx regarding the idea:

...the individual producer receives back from society—after the deductions have been made—exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

You're going to have to explain what favors for votes you're thinking of here. There's no money to give them, since labor vouchers are non-transferrable. I can't really think of anything I would consider an unfair vote in this sort of society. People within a commune/collection of producers are going to be voting for what best satisfies their interests.

And you're going to have to elaborate on how we're going backward on production coordination, especially when every producer has open communication with every other producer. Because producers are no longer bound to companies, we're moving backward? The economy is still industrial. We still have the same capability to produce goods as we do today, except goods are produced based on what society needs, not what's profitable.

 

[Sora_N]

I never understood how tumblr works but now I know it's shit lol.

 

[Valhelm]

Tumblr is like 4chan with none of their self awareness. Perfect echochamber for crazies who think they're heroes. I believe it. Just move on and pretend you never saw it, life is happier that way.

Tumblr really is the mirror image of 4chan, but there's a very thick layer of self-contempt throughout the site. Most people who use it for more than a few months realize how horrible the community can be.

 

[Monocle]

I never understood how tumblr works but now I know it's shit lol.

Look at this hellish cesspit. Disgusting!

Congrats, you generalized an insanely diverse social media platform based on one group of yahoos.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

There's nothing sound about Communist theory, it's a failed experiment. Going by the fact every single attempt at creating a Communist society has failed dismally (and usually resulting in famine, war, genocide or all of the above) we can conclude there's no redeeming qualities to it. It makes as much sense as Libertarianism.

Capitalism may have its problems but it's still the best system we've got. And why not, we've maintained Capitalism as an integral part of human society for the best part of 10,000 years now. Capitalism IS the story of humanity.

No, it's really not. You're conflating capitalism with exchanging of goods. Humans have exchanged goods for 10,000 years, but the primary aspects of capitalism- ie private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit, straight off of wikipedia- is very recent. No more than 400-500 or so years old.

And no, modern libertarianism is not compariable to communism. It is not in my best interest to remove the state's functions and regulations and thusly allow corporations to run rampant, especially considering corporations have no real interest other than maximization of profit, damn the consequences. Communism strives to achieve what's in the best interest of the mass majority of humans, those who work in any means of production and are not receiving the full value created by their labor.

 

[Fuu]

Tumblr really is the mirror image of 4chan, but there's a very thick layer of self-contempt throughout the site. Most people who use it for more than a few months realize how horrible the community can be.

The "Tumblr community" makes as much sense as the "GAF hivemind". There are multiple communities using Tumblr, most of them with little to no overlap.

 

[hawk2025]

Initially, many functions of private enterprise will be handed over to the state, as the state will be the expression of the working class' interests through representatives. This would include functions like organizing the internet, or assigning the bandwidth.

Also, I don't believe money will be completely absent in the beginning of the revolution, but will take on a different form, that of a labor voucher. A quote from wikipedia:



And a quote from Marx regarding the idea:



You're going to have to explain what favors for votes you're thinking of here. There's no money to give them, since labor vouchers are non-transferrable. I can't really think of anything I would consider an unfair vote in this sort of society. People within a commune/collection of producers are going to be voting for what best satisfies their interests.

And you're going to have to elaborate on how we're going backward on production coordination, especially when every producer has open communication with every other producer. Because producers are no longer bound to companies, we're moving backward? The economy is still industrial. We still have the same capability to produce goods as we do today, except goods are produced based on what society needs, not what's profitable.

Man...

I'm sorry, but I can't muster the energy to address this at this point since, at a very basic incentives level, I don't think we will agree on even the foundations of the discussion.

In a whole lot of years of studying economics I've debated and talked with marxists at length, particularly being from South America myself where there is still a significant (but increasingly irrelevant) presence in academia. I've never seen the divide be this large on the basics. You've mentioned that capitalism as we know it has not existed for 400-500 years -- look at actual data for quality of life and life expectancy since that period. Look at the data, look at how people respond to basic incentives.

I look forward to seeing how this will wash out if I just so happen to be colossally wrong, I suppose.

Either way, thanks for answering the questions and engaging

 

[Demoskinos]

I really hope all these scumbags get thrown in prison. As someone who works at retail I'm going to unequivocally say straight up fuck you. You aren't "taking it to capitalism" you're hurting all the employees who work at the store. You are quite literally taking money from these people. Many retail chains factor in things like the amount of shrink in store inventory into any bonuses paid out to employees. And anyone who tries to justify this kind of shit is nothing more than selfish scum.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Man...

I'm sorry, but I can't muster the energy to address this at this point since, at a very basic incentives level, I don't think we will agree on even the foundations of the discussion.

In a whole lot of years of studying economics I've debated and talked with marxists at length, particularly being from South America myself where there is still a significant (but increasingly irrelevant) presence in academia. I've never seen the divide be this large on the basics. You've mentioned that capitalism as we know it has not existed for 400-500 years -- look at actual data for quality of life and life expectancy since that period. Look at the data, look at how people respond to basic incentives.

I look forward to seeing how this will wash out if I just so happen to be colossally wrong, I suppose.

Either way, thanks for answering the questions and engaging

Yeah, that's fine. It was fun speaking with you!

For the record, the quality of life increase in the time that capitalism has existed has primarily come from the industrialization that capitalism stimulated, not the private ownership of the means of production. Allowing a few people to accumulate a lot of profit off of the backs of the many is not something that increases quality of life, it's just a form of economic organization. Quality of life increases come from ease of access to commodities and medicine, which are the result of industrialization (which yes capitalism started, hence it is the most important stage humanity has gone through ever, no marxist will debate this) and further education in the understanding of the human body.