Heresy, the Pink Room ("brothel") scene is magnificent. I can understand how you'd feel that way overall though, its certainly a darker look at pretty much everything about the town and people. That feeling may not let up for the new season so be prepared!
lol nah just saw it browsing general TP tweets and read it without spotting the name, I'll follow now though! Initially thought some insane synchronicity was going down
Since the hype thread was just locked, I'm posting my thoughts on Fire Walk With Me.
Great, now I hate Twin Peaks.
Mostly joking, but I'm very polarized. The best parts were the mythology/surrealism (Bob, the conference room, the white mask kid, etc.) and I thought Laura's death was very well done. In typical Lynch fashion, it creates more questions than answers but it focuses on the most important questions. But MAN, this movie is full of character assassination, at best character exaggeration. I knew going into it it would be dark and focus on the dark side of the characters but it was too much! The brothel scene was hard to watch knowing Donna (and she attempted to show some reluctance but went with it), and GOD DAMN this movie for what it did to Bobby. He's as bad as Leo -
a fucking murderer! And Mike's death or his guilt are never brought up again.
Of course Laura was what I expected, but the sex stuff was overemphasized - does Lynch understand that they're teenagers? The few characters I grew to appreciate were James and, yes I'm serious, Leland. I'm positive now he's not exactly the same as Bob but a Hydeian case of insanity/possession. He shows genuine emotion for Laura but knows that Bob is trapped in him. Then, there's too little Cooper, but his interactions with Laura and the Black Lodge are very interesting. The Teresa Bank storyline went nowhere - it's the same shit as Laura but a year earlier, and they completely disregard it 33% through the movie. And why is David Bowie's part so popular? He's in exactly one scene and that scene was very confusing [I believe he has more of a presence in the Missing Pieces cut but it's really jarring]. Lastly, I have no idea how to interpret the ending with the
angel. Was that Annie or Laura next to Dale? Is the angel Laura redeemed?
I feel some regret just for watching the whole movie. I feel sick for how Lynch treated some of the characters after the series was finished and their personalities have been set only for him to reveal that's not their real selves, they're all just twats. I would really wish for a Character Redemption cut without the brothel or Bobby's scenes, I would feel so much better never seeing those again.
Character assassination? Whaaaaat. You mean the guy who planted drugs to get back at the guy who went out with his now-dead girlfriend who he didn't love and cheated couldn't have killed someone? Not even in self defense and showing regret after the act? Despite that, Bobby is still a great character and does seem to have a change of heart throughout the series.
Plus Donna is great as well, it's the trigger of her trying to become more like Laura, which is shown in the series.
I'm actually surprised you took that from the film and didn't mind Leland considering
the film shows Leland has being aware at some extent of his deeds, including killing his own daughter.
But I can understand feeling like this, considering how the series shows the characters being all in all great people mostly, I just can't agree on that, since Lynch was clearly trying to show (albeit explicitly) that beyond that apparent perfection, even a pretty little town like Twin Peaks has its dark side.
Man, except for maybe Bobby (who was unfortunately kind of constrained by something established and very quickly forgotten in the show) I really can't see where your coming from. Laura becomes a character where she essentially wasn't ever one in the series. Donna's relationship with her that seems so important throughout the show is finally given an understandable, human context.
I love whenever Lynch comes into altering things about the characters, he goes to demonize them and throw them under a bus more than the other writers ever did.
Windom Earle you guys have been building up? Fuck him, he's not the next big threat he's a fucking pawn, to fuck hellfire he goes. Super Nadine plotline? Fuck them all, they all have to face what they've done and be unhappy. This Annie character you introduced? Cooper was mixing her up in his head with a past experience and hospitalize the bitch. Bobby is becoming likable? He killed a man before the series started, he was scum and you have to remember that. Donna is all swoony over James and whatnot? She almost followed Laura's path and almost prostituted herself. Ben Horne is on some weird redemption arc? Throw him into the fireplace! Fuck Audrey's shit up with a bomb for her activism. Sympathizing with Laura's killer? He fucking raped her too, you sick fucks.
There's other examples, but I just find it hilarious. Curious what he might do with Season 3's returns.
What's amazing is that he does all of this and it still feels right, never at any point did I get a sense of whiplash from the narrative he was creating. One can curse the fact that people suffer, but its clear that Lynch does not see the world as an idealized place.
Character assassination? Whaaaaat. You mean the guy who planted drugs to get back at the guy who went out with his now-dead girlfriend who he didn't love and cheated couldn't have killed someone? Not even in self defense and showing regret after the act? Despite that, Bobby is still a great character and does seem to have a change of heart throughout the series.
Plus Donna is great as well, it's the trigger of her trying to become more like Laura, which is shown in the series.
I'm actually surprised you took that from the film and didn't mind Leland considering
the film shows Leland has being aware at some extent of his deeds, including killing his own daughter.
Okay, I don't remember much about the teens in season 1 (it took me a long time to watch the series due to season 2's nadir), but it's still drastic how different Bobby is in the movie as well as both seasons - I don't understand or remember his character progression. Donna wasn't completely ruined, it was more being really uncomfortable watching her have sex. As for Leland it's my interpretation given his lines - it could be Bob talking lies but unless someone knows better about the Palmer's early encounters with Bob then Leland's guilt is ambiguous.
I understand why a lot of fans appreciate it, but in my opinion it was a mistake to retroactively slander the characters rather than show the FWWM versions in the pilot and they become better as the series goes. Imagine watching the movie Irreversible backwards and my emotions feel like that.
So, I've stayed away from all news surrounding the series until now, but apparently Michael J Anderson won't be returning? Apparently he posted a bizarre facebook rant hurling weird accusations at Lynch, and has gone down a rabbit hole of antisemitism, homophobia and more? On one hand, shame, because his performance is so iconic, on the other hand fuck him.
I wonder if they will use someone else to replace his role. Or will his character even be relevant? Part of me thinks that this will have barely any connection to the mythos of the original. I have no idea what to expect, really.
Okay, I don't remember much about the teens in season 1 (it took me a long time to watch the series due to season 2's nadir), but it's still drastic how different Bobby is in the movie as well as both seasons - I don't understand or remember his character progression. Donna wasn't completely ruined, it was more being really uncomfortable watching her have sex. As for Leland it's my interpretation given his lines - it could be Bob talking lies but unless someone knows better about the Palmer's early encounters with Bob then Leland's guilt is ambiguous.
Bobby doesn't really feel different, just that in the series he was hiding all his problems that Laura caused him (which Jacoby saw in one episode and even got him to have a mini-breakdown).
On the uncomfortable, I mean, that's real life. Shit happens to good people, Lynch does this precisely to make you feel uncomfortable, art is not supposed to make you feel good all the time, it's supposed to make you feel something.
On Leland, I suggest you take a look Laura's death scene:
Leland says "I always thought you knew it was me", and then Bob appears and says "I never thought you knew it was me", which does make you think that Leland knew what he was doing, regardless if he thought it was right or wrong. Even murderers can feel guilt at certain points.
Gordon's scenes are some of the best in season 2, realized he's quoting Barbara Streisand at one point ("They say people who need people are the luckiest people in the world"(just now realizing this is where AJJ's album title comes from))
also
"TAKE ANOTHER LOOK SONNY, IT'S GONNA HAPPEN AGAIN"
and
"THAT'S THE TYPE OF GIRL THAT MAKES YOU WISH YOU SPOKE A LITTLE FRENCH"
Edit: Just need to add that Madchen Amick is just fantastic as Shelly. The character is pretty vanilla compared to many people in Twin Peaks, but all her little subtle mannerisms really add a lot of personality to her.
I love whenever Lynch comes into altering things about the characters, he goes to demonize them and throw them under a bus more than the other writers ever did.
Windom Earle you guys have been building up? Fuck him, he's not the next big threat he's a fucking pawn, to fuck hellfire he goes. Super Nadine plotline? Fuck them all, they all have to face what they've done and be unhappy. This Annie character you introduced? Cooper was mixing her up in his head with a past experience and hospitalize the bitch. Bobby is becoming likable? He killed a man before the series started, he was scum and you have to remember that. Donna is all swoony over James and whatnot? She almost followed Laura's path and almost prostituted herself. Ben Horne is on some weird redemption arc? Throw him into the fireplace! Fuck Audrey's shit up with a bomb for her activism.
There's other examples, but I just find it hilarious. Curious what he might do with Season 3's returns.
I do feel you're exaggerating somenof those imo. The only one that really feels like a direct "fuck you" was Earle imo. Some of those were written by other people for instance. Donna is an interesting case though.
Remember, nynt9, "when you see me again, it won't be me". Take it a bit more literal haha.
Bobby doesn't really feel different, just that in the series he was hiding all his problems that Laura caused him (which Jacoby saw in one episode and even got him to have a mini-breakdown).
On the uncomfortable, I mean, that's real life. Shit happens to good people, Lynch does this precisely to make you feel uncomfortable, art is not supposed to make you feel good all the time, it's supposed to make you feel something.
On Leland, I suggest you take a look Laura's death scene:
Leland says "I always thought you knew it was me", and then Bob appears and says "I never thought you knew it was me", which does make you think that Leland knew what he was doing, regardless if he thought it was right or wrong. Even murderers can feel guilt at certain points.
Good, good, good. I now know David Lynch doesn't believe in moral duality, more that people are blank slates and random events just happen to them and the sum total defines them. Which is why right after watching FWWM it feels like "good things happen to shit people." But season 1 had the best balance with this concept - FWWM is too pessimistic and season 2 is too quirky, and watching it in the release order is so weird. The final Leland/Bob line threw me off because it sounded like a double negative, but it sounds like it complicates Bob more - how real is he, is he just Leland's real form? It's too complicated for me to focus on now.
You're defense is nice though, can you be my Twin Peaks psychiatrist?
I do feel you're exaggerating somenof those imo. The only one that really feels like a direct "fuck you" was Earle imo. Some of those were written by other people for instance. Donna is an interesting case though.
Super Nadine felt felt like the most direct middle finger to me. That whole thing was so silly and ridiculous and Lynch just comes in at the end and says fuck you all none of you get a happy ending
Super Nadine felt felt like the most direct middle finger to me. That whole thing was so silly and ridiculous and Lynch just comes in at the end and says fuck you all none of you get a happy ending
I do feel you're exaggerating somenof those imo. The only one that really feels like a direct "fuck you" was Earle imo. Some of those were written by other people for instance. Donna is an interesting case though.
There's a bit of exaggeration for comedic effect, but none of them are completely untrue either. And as mentioned by Juan29.zapata, Lynch isn't just passing out a lot of "Fuck Yous" around, he does it in such a way where it feels natural, engaging, and there's not solely a focus on the characters bad or good sides. I'd say Lynch makes characters often seedier than a normal person even in goodness.
I wish the OP had recent photos of the actors as well. I fear that I won't be able to recognize some of them due to the time that has passed and how different they look now.
Two weeks, I mistook June 4th for July 4th subconsciously too. I'm going to be one of those people who binges all four episodes when they release, but once binging there won't be another new episode until June 4th (May 21st Parts 1 & 2 air, and then on May 28th parts 3 & 4 air on television, then we go to one Part released each Sunday starting on June 4th with Part 5, but one week (probably July 4th weekend) will be skipped, and then on September 3rd there will be a two-part finale where Parts 17 & 18th will air together.
There's a bit of exaggeration for comedic effect, but none of them are completely untrue either. And as mentioned by Juan29.zapata, Lynch isn't just passing out a lot of "Fuck Yous" around, he does it in such a way where it feels natural, engaging, and there's not solely a focus on the characters bad or good sides. I'd say Lynch makes characters often seedier than a normal person even in goodness.
Gordon's scenes are some of the best in season 2, realized he's quoting Barbara Streisand at one point ("They say people who need people are the luckiest people in the world"(just now realizing this is where AJJ's album title comes from))
also
"TAKE ANOTHER LOOK SONNY, IT'S GONNA HAPPEN AGAIN"
and
"THAT'S THE TYPE OF GIRL THAT MAKES YOU WISH YOU SPOKE A LITTLE FRENCH"
Edit: Just need to add that Madchen Amick is just fantastic as Shelly. The character is pretty vanilla compared to many people in Twin Peaks, but all her little subtle mannerisms really add a lot of personality to her.
The funny thing about Cole is on paper he sounds like he'd be atrocious, a character is literally yelling all the time. But Lynch was the perfect person to play him, Lynch's natural speaking voice and the way he naturally emphasizes things already I think works well for the character, and ends up with his scenes all being a joy.
To be honest every FBI agent on the show is a fucking treasure. Cooper, Albert, Cole, and Denise are all up there as some of the best characters on the show. I'm happy all four of them are returning in the new season.
Since the hype thread was just locked, I'm posting my thoughts on Fire Walk With Me.
Great, now I hate Twin Peaks.
Mostly joking, but I'm very polarized. The best parts were the mythology/surrealism (Bob, the conference room, the white mask kid, etc.) and I thought Laura's death was very well done. In typical Lynch fashion, it creates more questions than answers but it focuses on the most important questions. But MAN, this movie is full of character assassination, at best character exaggeration. I knew going into it it would be dark and focus on the dark side of the characters but it was too much! The brothel scene was hard to watch knowing Donna (and she attempted to show some reluctance but went with it), and GOD DAMN this movie for what it did to Bobby. He's as bad as Leo -
a fucking murderer! And Mike's death or his guilt are never brought up again.
Of course Laura was what I expected, but the sex stuff was overemphasized - does Lynch understand that they're teenagers? The few characters I grew to appreciate were James and, yes I'm serious, Leland. I'm positive now he's not exactly the same as Bob but a Hydeian case of insanity/possession. He shows genuine emotion for Laura but knows that Bob is trapped in him. Then, there's too little Cooper, but his interactions with Laura and the Black Lodge are very interesting. The Teresa Bank storyline went nowhere - it's the same shit as Laura but a year earlier, and they completely disregard it 33% through the movie. And why is David Bowie's part so popular? He's in exactly one scene and that scene was very confusing [I believe he has more of a presence in the Missing Pieces cut but it's really jarring]. Lastly, I have no idea how to interpret the ending with the
angel. Was that Annie or Laura next to Dale? Is the angel Laura redeemed?
I feel some regret just for watching the whole movie. I feel sick for how Lynch treated some of the characters after the series was finished and their personalities have been set only for him to reveal that's not their real selves, they're all just twats. I would really wish for a Character Redemption cut without the brothel or Bobby's scenes, I would feel so much better never seeing those again.
I would strongly suggest watching The Missing Pieces - I just watched it myself a few hours ago and I thought it did a good job of fixing some of the wonkier parts of Fire Walk With Me. Like the part with the
angels at the end and Laura's reaction to them
was foreshadowed and also slightly explained. Donna's behavior at the sex club sat a bit better with me in retrospect, too, after having viewed it.
Also, more David Bowie. (and creepy Black Lodge scenes) (and a creepy scene with Laura staring at a ceiling fan)
Super Nadine felt felt like the most direct middle finger to me. That whole thing was so silly and ridiculous and Lynch just comes in at the end and says fuck you all none of you get a happy ending
I love the stares and looks on all the characters in that subplot when it gets resolved, they all look so dead on the inside. It's such a downer ending for one of the silliest subplots the show maybe did (maybe second to the Civil War stuff).
I wish the OP had recent photos of the actors as well. I fear that I won't be able to recognize some of them due to the time that has passed and how different they look now.
There's an interview video from the premiere yesterday where a lot of the actors did 2-4 minute interviews, many of the old cast and some of the new cast. One thing that stood out watching all of the interviews one after the other is so many people on the show just give off a sort of aura to them which is very disgustingly them, so I wouldn't be too worried. Some of them on looks do look quite a bit different, but when you see them walking and talking it gets very easy to tell who's who.
I'm in complete agreement with you, I never understood the strong disdain for it myself. Back when I first watched it I was worried I might not like it due to the word back then, but it surprised me how much I enjoyed it.
I would strongly suggest watching The Missing Pieces - I just watched it myself a few hours ago and I thought it did a good job of fixing some of the wonkier parts of Fire Walk With Me. Like the part with the
angels at the end and Laura's reaction to them
was foreshadowed and also slightly explained. Donna's behavior at the sex club sat a bit better with me in retrospect, too, after having viewed it.
Also, more David Bowie. (and creepy Black Lodge scenes) (and a creepy scene with Laura staring at a ceiling fan)
The Missing Pieces do include a lot more of the light-hearted elements that were planned for the movie and does a better job at exploring and expand some things. I can understand why some things were cut to keep the movie tonally dark, focused, and not make it a four hour film (like I LOVE the 2x4 scene with Pete as a stand-alone scene, but it would've felt entirely out of place in the movie).
I do think they should've included some of the full or extended scenes in the movie, like some of the family time with Laura and her parents before things got dark as it shows more of their light-hearted side in some of the deleted scenes and why Laura felt safe around her parents until the revelation, and I wish they didn't cut down the scene above the convenience store and a few others. I think it's nice to have all of them available and see how they expand on things though. And if someone's wondering where all the light-heartedness is in FWWM, the answer is look into Missing Pieces. I don't think you should see Missing Pieces combined with FWWM the first time you watch it, and see the movie as it was intended. But I admit I kind of love the fan edit putting the deleted scenes back in on repeat viewings.
It's damn good. First time I saw that and as it transitions into the room above the convenience store I thought this is the most brilliant, insanely subversive shit I've ever seen. Firing on all cylinders there, the editing is what really shines. Much better cut without the Buenos Aires hotel stuff. Makes it infinitely more mysterious. If there's even a whiff of that kind of interplay with dream logic and the intersection of multiple worlds in the new season I'll be in heaven.
It's a nice scene, but I thought this bit really oversold that moment. It's much more mysterious and beautiful without it, and the film as is sets it up enough if you're paying attention.
Plot twist: you hated Twin Peaks since the pilot, you just didn't know it.
Code:
[spoiler] JAMES
Donna, she said something about a guy getting
killed -
DONNA
Who?
JAMES
She didn't say, but she said Bobby told her that
he killed this guy -
DONNA
Oh my God ...[/spoiler]
A lot of people including myself forgot about the line to be fair since it's never really further explored in the series. When I first saw Fire Walk With Me I was caught off-guard that Bobby killed someone too, but it was only when rewatching the pilot later I remembered, "waaaaaiiit, riiight James mentioned Laura told him Bobby killed someone in the first episode."
It's easy to forget since outside of that one mention the series never really brings it up again UNTIL Fire Walk With Me.
Seems like Lynch did his best with the cast members that were available, and subbed in some fanboys in surrogate roles where they weren't. And this was definitely more of a Lynch thing and less of a Frost thing. I felt like it didn't really answer much in terms of the black lodge, or much of anything that I didn't already know from the series, but it was cool to see Laura's backstory. The actress that played Laura did such a good job in it that I forgive it for a lot of other issues, and the girl who plays Donna in place of Lara Flynn Boyle did a fine job.
The Missing Pieces do include a lot more of the light-hearted elements that were planned for the movie and does better explore and expand some things. I can understand why some things were cut to keep the movie tonally dark, focused, and not make it a four hour film (like I LOVE the 2x4 scene with Pete as a stand-alone scene, but it would've felt entirely out of place in the movie).
I do think they should've included some of the full or extended scenes in the movie, like some of the family time with Laura and her parents before things got dark as it shows more of their light-hearted side in some of the deleted scenes and why Laura felt safe around her parents until the revelation, and I wish they didn't cut down the scene above the convenience store and a few others. I think it's nice to have all of them available and see how they expand on things though. And if someone's wondering where all the light-heartedness is in FWWM, the answer is look into Missing Pieces. I don't think you should see Missing Pieces combined with FWWM the first time you watch it, and see the movie as it was intended. But I admit I kind of love the fan edit putting the deleted scenes back in on repeat viewings.
Yep. The Missing Pieces feels like a bridge between the TV show and the movie - it contains both scenes featuring the lighter tone of the series and the darker tone of the movie. Plus, it's fun to see Lucy, Andy, Josie, etc. pop up for a scene or two.
On the other hand, the narrative does feel more focused without the scenes featuring the side characters, as most of them feel extraneous.
I also agree that some of them should have remained in the movie though, like the Norwegian introduction scene and the entire "muffin" scene between Donna and Laura (and then Donna's parents), for the reasons that you mentioned.
Seems like Lynch did his best with the cast members that were available, and subbed in some fanboys in surrogate roles where they weren't. And this was definitely more of a Lynch thing and less of a Frost thing. I felt like it didn't really answer much in terms of the black lodge, or much of anything that I didn't already know from the series, but it was cool to see Laura's backstory. The actress that played Laura did such a good job in it that I forgive it for a lot of other issues, and the girl who plays Donna in place of Lara Flynn Boyle did a fine job.
The biggest movie more expands on some things, and Deer Meadows is basically confirmed to be in the new season (Deer Meadows is the town the two agents at the start of the film are investigating).
Probably the biggest thing the movie expands upon is the ring and black lodge entities a bit, but there are some important bits sprinkled throughout.
