Noisepurge
Member
finally my weak inferior PAL copy has shipped! can't wait to start playing this.
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Twisted Metal |OT| Don't Eat. Don't Sleep. Play
- Thread starter Pranay
- Start date
Dear David Jaffe,
Twisted Metal is a return to form. It's a great game. Despite the network issues, it's really fun when it works. However, one troubling issue appears to emerging.
As you have heard, a lot of people are complaining in regards to Talon. I for one am one with these people. But for a different reason.
You already have heard about how Talon is broken, cheese etc... But what is happening now, and I just came from two game rooms to type this, is that a lot of game rooms have the names NOTALONSNO, NO_TALON etc... In fact one room I played on refused to start the next match because a player refused to switch from Talon. Everyone left the room because of that. This happened again on another room that I played on.
As mentioned before, a lot of PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH TALONS. It's just that dealing with them makes the game unfun. I primarily play free for all deathmatch and it really is different if a Talon is in the game, and not in a good way.
The network errors are the primary issue yes, but this must be the next one to be addressed. Once people can easily enter game rooms, they might quickly leave if a Talon enters the game. It already is happening.
I do not care about ranks and stuff. I just want fun in my games. In my humble opinion, Talons make it unfun for a lot of people, myself included. We really are hoping this will be addressed!
PS: I rarely post here, I'm a lurker. But I really feel the need to write this. Have a good day GAF!
Twisted Metal is a return to form. It's a great game. Despite the network issues, it's really fun when it works. However, one troubling issue appears to emerging.
As you have heard, a lot of people are complaining in regards to Talon. I for one am one with these people. But for a different reason.
You already have heard about how Talon is broken, cheese etc... But what is happening now, and I just came from two game rooms to type this, is that a lot of game rooms have the names NOTALONSNO, NO_TALON etc... In fact one room I played on refused to start the next match because a player refused to switch from Talon. Everyone left the room because of that. This happened again on another room that I played on.
As mentioned before, a lot of PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH TALONS. It's just that dealing with them makes the game unfun. I primarily play free for all deathmatch and it really is different if a Talon is in the game, and not in a good way.
The network errors are the primary issue yes, but this must be the next one to be addressed. Once people can easily enter game rooms, they might quickly leave if a Talon enters the game. It already is happening.
I do not care about ranks and stuff. I just want fun in my games. In my humble opinion, Talons make it unfun for a lot of people, myself included. We really are hoping this will be addressed!
PS: I rarely post here, I'm a lurker. But I really feel the need to write this. Have a good day GAF!
Noisepurge
Member
an easy fix would be to give the host the option of limiting what vehicles are available for use.
I am had been a huge fan of both TM2 and Black from back in the day but I haven't really looked into this one yet. I had been planning to buy it day one sight unseen but I've been taken aback by the somewhat middling reviews.
Question 1): As a big TMB fan, will this be exactly what I want or is it a more complicated picture than that?
Question 2): I have heard some complaints about the controls which surprises me since I never had any issues with past iterations. Is the 'classic' control scheme more or less what I should be used to from Black?
Question 1): As a big TMB fan, will this be exactly what I want or is it a more complicated picture than that?
Question 2): I have heard some complaints about the controls which surprises me since I never had any issues with past iterations. Is the 'classic' control scheme more or less what I should be used to from Black?
Revolutionary
Member
Just don't go in expecting a good singleplayer experience, and you'll be fine.
As for the second question, it plays pretty much exactly like the old ones, but with simplified energy moves (up for freeze, as opposed to left, right, up or whatever it was), and L2 and R2 are switched. I think the control complaints are from those who have never played a TM before.
So yeah, in summary, it's an incredibly fun game marred by network issues and a shit story campaign. The few stories that are in the game are pretty good, mind you, but the events in the campaign make them a chore to uncover. Fortunately, online is a blast... when it works.
Boogalogist
Member
If you're a fan, GET IT!!!!
Cool. I'm pretty positive that I'm going to be picking this up, I just need to finish up some other games first before I dive in.
Can you elaborate more on the first point. I actually loved the single player modes in the past games even though they just consisted of bot matches with a few boss battles tossed in. How can it be worse than that? Have they over complicated things? Or is your complaint related to the story content?
Revolutionary
Member
Yeah, I loved that about the older games as well. Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head: they've overcomplicated things. Don't want to spoil anything with specifics, but as an example, one of the boss battles has a whopping 6 phases to the fight, while another has 5, including a GAUNTLET thrown in the middle for good measure. It's an exercise in frustration rather than fun, in my opinion.
Then there's another type of mini-boss event that tries to one-up itself everytime you encounter it, as well as two race events which consist of little more than picking the fastest vehicle and taking out the fastest AI vehicle before it leaves you in the dust. It's pretty bad.
But, like I said, the online component is where the fun is, and they're patching it again later this week. Hopefully it stops the majority of the network issues.
Ran into a dude the other day with a 100% skill rating. He was running Sweet Tooth and basically playing him like a low-flying, Talon with the ability to transform into vehicle mode. Kind of makes me wonder about the decision to allow flight in game.
I see a lot of Talons with close to 100% skill rating.
I do play Sweet Tooth from time to time but I can't control him in robot mode to save my life (I mostly use JYD/Vermin/Meatwagon).
When they showed the new Sweet Tooth and Talon I thought, "FLYING?! This will be awesome!" Well ... how wrong I was lol...
I saw Jaffe respond on Twitter to complaints about Talon's special. I think he's missing the mark. I have no issue with Talon's special, it's his mobility and what the player can do with it. The vehicle either needs a limited altitude or be disabled on Nuke and LMS.
I don't know if Talon has a vehicle cap, but there should only be one allowed in FFA and one on each team in DM.
Helscream
Banned
Well I just wrapped up a game of Nuke where the other team was using 2 Talons and they BOTH have each faction leader. Holy shit man it was annoying. I think Talon is not limited in Nuke. Like out of the 15 kills I had 4 of them were Talons. David said they were limited to three, but they just kept respawning as Talon. My team did end up winning, but I find it ridiculous how basically Talon does not seem to have a limit on spawning. And when it comes to a game like TDM that shit can be really ridiculous. I think what would really balance Talon is if they changed it so Talon could not use his special's back to back to back to back. Every other vehicle in the game has to wait on a cooldown to use a weapon once firing. Some weapons have a faster/slower cooldown. But to be able to just unload your special back to back is overpowered without having to wait through a cooldown at all.
Boogalogist
Member
Grrrr...+1 hate for Talon here as well. So difficult to hunt them down. Especially places like Black Rock Stadium. There's only a few select weapon that can hit them while they are in the air. Talon players who are aware will have shields up right before your freeze hits them.
Only on rare occasions, I managed to crush Talons with Axel....sooooo satisfying!!
Seriously, fuck these Talons.
Only on rare occasions, I managed to crush Talons with Axel....sooooo satisfying!!
Seriously, fuck these Talons.
Ok, annoyances aside it still sounds like I should definitely buy. I'll look forward to joining in on all the fun.
-Sniper should fill twice as fast against talon
-Talon megabullets are retarded. No one else can get that sort of tracking.
-Special shouldn't "click/lock" onto opponents. Talon doesn't even have to play after that, just hold that trigger.
-LA Skyline is borderline unplayable when a competent Talon is there. Talon is absolute map control, and the rest of the maps are that way to a lesser extent too.
-Good Talons just hang above buildings and freeze has little effect if it lands. They are still safe. Either add fall damage or there's gotta be another way.
-Talon's speed is pretty good. Slow enough to be dealt with, but perhaps turbo could empty quicker.
-Health should be the sam as Reaper's or if nothing else is done, lower than Reaper.
Just a few quick ideas. I'm not suggesting all at once because he woould then be garbage. A couple I think would bring him down to reality.
Also, from the get-go I thought a helicopter in TM was a bad idea. I knew from the start he would have ridiculous advantages over everything else.
Just comparing Sweet Bot to Talon, it's like they balanced Sweet Bot, but Talon just got free pass. SB can only fire special and is only viable with 2+ special as he'll stay in SB form after firing a head. Turbo drains quick to keep SB on his toes and constanly moving, engaging the player and the overall flow of combat. SB is an example of how Talon should be. If he's still to even be there.
You just have to be locked onto an opponent for a long enough time. If you wait long enough, it will zoom in for like 2 seconds and if you shoot them during that time it will be a headshot.
It's a timer. Sit high and still and keep the laser on someone. You'll notice the scope/dial will rotate clockwise. When it reaches the 3/4 full mark, it'll show a tiny pop up of the opponent and you can then pull the trigger again to get the headshot. Sitting still makes the dial spin faster, sitting high ensures better chance of you keeping the laser sight on them. Click R3 to switch to an on-screen enemy that is out in the open or not moving (presumably vermin or meatwagon doing manual missile/gurney, so they can't see you aiming on them.)
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Maybe Talon should get a buff against other Talons. Let them worry about each other.
No way, Talon is already at a disadvantage against snipers. Little cover in the air and limited visibility during the special make it an easy target already.
Talon needs more tracking than other vehicles because otherwise mega guns would be absolutely useless. They might need to tone it down.
lol no. This is way wrong. Although Talon's special has crazy range, it has terrible lock-on problems. You still need to move around while shooting it, you have very little visibility, and you can't move up or down. If these things are not an issue then you are shooting at a terrible player who is just sitting there wondering why that green bar just started decreasing. The special also takes a long time to regen.
Talon has disadvantages on these maps. A freeze will do fall damage most of the time, making a kill against talon even easier.
Fall damage for this might be a good idea, but even still, Talon doesn't have much HP. Most specials and a few homing/fire missiles will take one down.
Its HP is already 3rd lowest in the game
This really sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy. Talon is overpowered because a lot of people believe he is and complain instead of fighting it. I suspect Talon mostly gets high kdrs from preying on players that don't hide from or attack Talons, because although I have noticed Talon tends to have high kdrs in some rooms, I'm not the one being killed by Talon. Giving Talon a unique radar icon and moving sniper pickups to lower locations are good ideas. People need to play smarter.
One of my favorite recent kills: I was playing in a full room in Grindhouse. I was on the roof of the theater playing as Shadow and a Talon was attacking me. I threw a coffin bomb at the hole in the roof and then jumped down the hole, grabbing the health pickup along the way. Then I watched in the HUD as the Talon followed me down the hole. R2. Dead Talon
Revolutionary
Member
Talons are indeed a pain in the ass to take care of in most vehicles. If one manages to take me out or just irritate me enough by stealing kills or something along those lines, I like to return with a vengeance in a Talon of my own and kill him spawn after spawn until they respawn as something else.
This method is how I know there are at least 15 Talons allowed to spawn per round (killed one guy 12 times in a round because he refused to spawn as anything else, and I wasn't unstoppable - died a handful of times).
Oh, and I've pulled off a coffin bomb Talon kill before as well, but I launched it up at him from ground level for a direct hit. Perfect way to end a round.
This method is how I know there are at least 15 Talons allowed to spawn per round (killed one guy 12 times in a round because he refused to spawn as anything else, and I wasn't unstoppable - died a handful of times).
Oh, and I've pulled off a coffin bomb Talon kill before as well, but I launched it up at him from ground level for a direct hit.
Perfect way to end a round.No way, Talon is already at a disadvantage against snipers. Little cover in the air and limited visibility during the special make it an easy target already. competent players have no problem avoiding snipers due to their mobility. Even maps like Sunsprings, they know to hang around rooftops so they can easily hide from the dot. Their Super is really the only time a good Talon would be vulnerable.
Talon needs more tracking than other vehicles because otherwise mega guns would be absolutely useless. They might need to tone it down. I'm not saying he needs no tracking, but to say that ridiculous amount of tracking is necessary for him, is a joke. Look at the flamethrower tracking for Crimson Fury and Kamikaze. Most of the time it is lagging behind in terms of contact because even Outlaw can outmaneuver it.
lol no. This is way wrong. Although Talon's special has crazy range, it has terrible lock-on problems. You still need to move around while shooting it, you have very little visibility, and you can't move up or down. If these things are not an issue then you are shooting at a terrible player who is just sitting there wondering why that green bar just started decreasing. The special also takes a long time to regen. There are a lot of terrible players, I'll agree, but his Alt special is utterly useless because his primary outshines it so damn much. Also, He's got some other options besides his Special (mostly Sniper is being used/abused).
Talon has disadvantages on these maps. A freeze will do fall damage most of the time, making a kill against talon even easier. If he's stupid. Most Talons worth their salt stay above high ground for the very reason if they happen to get frozen.
Fall damage for this might be a good idea, but even still, Talon doesn't have much HP. Most specials and a few homing/fire missiles will take one down. Most specials can't reach him, or Talon can easily avoid them.
Its HP is already 3rd lowest in the game And he's the most mobile car in the game. Reaper and Crimson have to navigate terrain, Talon doesn't.
This really sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy. Talon is overpowered because a lot of people believe he is and complain instead of fighting it. I suspect Talon mostly gets high kdrs from preying on players that don't hide from or attack Talons, because although I have noticed Talon tends to have high kdrs in some rooms, I'm not the one being killed by Talon. Giving Talon a unique radar icon and moving sniper pickups to lower locations are good ideas. People need to play smarter. It really is self-fulfilling prophecy. I 100% agree. I rarely get killed by Talons as well, most of my suggestions are fresh off watching the Youtube video that was shown to Jaffe, who then responded with his brief comments. My beef is with what I bring about in the latter portion of the closing. From the video I saw and the little bit of Talon I DID play, he's boring. He's really only getting attention because of how easy it is to abuse him versus inexperienced players, or how he has hometown advantage on virtually every map. I really think Sweetbot was the best way to go about flight in a Twisted Metal. Being Sweet Bot means you're constantly on your toes, either racing to get more turbo, lining up a clown head, dipping between buildings to dodge fire. Everything I've seen Sweet Bot do makes me think that flight in a TM could work. A lot of that play needs to somehow bleed over to Talon. Right now Talon is just a camp vehicle that once empty has to reload on health and Sniper.
One of my favorite recent kills: I was playing in a full room in Grindhouse. I was on the roof of the theater playing as Shadow and a Talon was attacking me. I threw a coffin bomb at the hole in the roof and then jumped down the hole, grabbing the health pickup along the way. Then I watched in the HUD as the Talon followed me down the hole. R2. Dead Talon
I by no means think Talon is "Broken" but there are some concerns that will only fully realize once people stop being dumbfucks when Talon is around. I personally haven't had much trouble with Talon once I learned to play against him. In that regards, this is really following in the footsteps of fighting games where you need to know your enemy's toolset just as well as your own.
That's the point. He isn't broken. The people in that video aren't hiding from Talon, they aren't attacking Talon with anything but a couple of homing missiles at a time when they even notice him. The problem is if you nerf him now, he will be absolutely unplayable when people get good at the game. It's hard to play as Talon against competent players.
I mean, using the same logic, you could say Shadow needs to be nerfed because I can get high kdrs with it and noobs just drive right into my coffin bombs sometimes without me even having to press the button. I got in one match on LA Skyline Vertigo where I only died once and I just sat in one spot the whole match tossing coffin bombs at the central platform and got a 10 killstreak just doing that.
lol, I was just reading the tweets of that guy that tweeted the video to Jaffe:
When being shot the screen flashes red, your health goes down. Usually when that happens I duck for cover. And Talon can't really target anyone that is right below him. One way to get away from Talon is to actually drive towards it. It sucks at turning.
Boogalogist
Member
I feel otherwise. There was one game, I didn't actively kill other cars...I only focused ON the Talon. He was difficult to hunt down. I had significantly less kills than if I hunted other cars. So I grab as much missiles I could to hunt Talon....and proceed to kill him. In order to hunt another Talon, I need to pick up missiles again. The rest of the non-homing weapons do jack against it. Oh yeah, freeze...big deal. They'll just shield it against it.
My issue is not the damage that Talon does....it's hunting a Talon that's difficult.
This Talon is like a bloody vulture. Preying on the weak. But even when I actively hunt it, the good Talons can really outmaneuver you.....thanks to the terrain restrictions.
How's Sweet Tooth as a Talon hunter?
My issue is not the damage that Talon does....it's hunting a Talon that's difficult.
This Talon is like a bloody vulture. Preying on the weak. But even when I actively hunt it, the good Talons can really outmaneuver you.....thanks to the terrain restrictions.
How's Sweet Tooth as a Talon hunter?
Experiencing quite a bit of lag today, Outlaw players and the lot skipping all over the place.... And wow Warthog is so much fun to play as. Now give us Hammerhead!
Edit.
From jaffe's twitter
Would also like to see Bonus xp for killing an enemy that has damaged the the faction carrier while he's still alive.
Edit.
From jaffe's twitter
Nuke update looks even better 10xp for a leader pick up 15 for a launch and 75 for a hit, That sounds great.
Would also like to see Bonus xp for killing an enemy that has damaged the the faction carrier while he's still alive.
Besides the average network stuff this game has a few things that are a thorn in my side. I don't care for Talon in general but I accept that if I were better or my teammates were smarter he wouldn't be an issue(I almost exclusively play team modes in this I'm a pansy like that).
My biggest gripe is the team making formula it seems like complete garbage. Twice in my 50ish games I have had it make the team 3v5 and 3-4 times make them 5v7. Of most of those times I'm the highest skill player on the smaller team at a whopping 70-80 average which isn't that great. I don't see a reason why it should EVER balance teams that way 5v7 seems tolerable but 3v5 is basically double team size and that is a massive thing. This needs to be fixed I understand that games won't always be even in player number but the game making teams with more then 1 player difference is absurd to me.
On another note balancing needs to be put into matches if they won't allow drop in game play in ranked then they need to either just do midmatch team balancing with players being moved or even reduce what tier vehicles the team with the greater number players can use. yeah it sucks but being stuck in a game because of general network BS or people just quitting and being forced to suck it up for 5 minutes or you get no exp is just a lame experience and as a sore loser it just gets me to turning the game off quicker.
The same idea of tier restriction to unbalanced teams going into matches would be a nice touch aswell. And Talon needs a life count like Jugg if not for the entire team at least per player. Teams should also be limited to how many tier vehicles they have in total im sure the code checks the player rank if one team only has 2-3 people in tier 2 the other team having all players with that access seems like another smack to the groin.
My biggest gripe is the team making formula it seems like complete garbage. Twice in my 50ish games I have had it make the team 3v5 and 3-4 times make them 5v7. Of most of those times I'm the highest skill player on the smaller team at a whopping 70-80 average which isn't that great. I don't see a reason why it should EVER balance teams that way 5v7 seems tolerable but 3v5 is basically double team size and that is a massive thing. This needs to be fixed I understand that games won't always be even in player number but the game making teams with more then 1 player difference is absurd to me.
On another note balancing needs to be put into matches if they won't allow drop in game play in ranked then they need to either just do midmatch team balancing with players being moved or even reduce what tier vehicles the team with the greater number players can use. yeah it sucks but being stuck in a game because of general network BS or people just quitting and being forced to suck it up for 5 minutes or you get no exp is just a lame experience and as a sore loser it just gets me to turning the game off quicker.
The same idea of tier restriction to unbalanced teams going into matches would be a nice touch aswell. And Talon needs a life count like Jugg if not for the entire team at least per player. Teams should also be limited to how many tier vehicles they have in total im sure the code checks the player rank if one team only has 2-3 people in tier 2 the other team having all players with that access seems like another smack to the groin.
The Xtortionist
Member
Join room "GAF", ranked TDM
I am playing my campaign on hard & I'm stuck on the last boss stages.
Phase 3 maze!
Oh my god I want to kill somebody never been that frustrated.
People that think Dark Souls & Demon's Souls are the hardest games ever are insane!
This shit is insanely hard!
Those damned spiked wrecking balls! They hit you once or twice & you are fucked!
Nonstop rolling mines launch you with the games physics & you slam into another spiked ball.
At first I tried doing them one by one & the mines kept knocking me back. Then I watched a video online of someone beating it with a faster vehicle. I have been using outlaw as that vehicle makes the first boss phase cake.
It seems randomly driving through full speed can get you through or knock you past a little bit, when you fall you start on the beginning of phase 3.
By then your health is reduced & you are fucked.
Single player is fun has its frustrating moments, I like that in games.
The last level on hard or twisted is fucking insane!
Anyone ever beat it with Outlaw?
I did! On Normal... Getting past the obstacle course was a bitch. I tried it at least 30x and was about to give up. Then one time when those damn wrecking balls knocked me off the course pissing me off and I had to restart with half heath, I just gunned it. And by some dumb luck made it through.
I wouldn't recommend Outlaw on Twisted where you have to start from stage 1 each time you die. (I have yet to beat it on Twisted with anyone
Revolutionary
Member
I tried with Outlaw like 20 times the first time I played the final boss, and eventually gave up (physically exhausted). Came back a few days later and beat it on my first try with Roadkill. The obstacle course/gauntlet is much easier with a faster car, but the entire event still sucks.
::tosses pretty sparkly purple coffin bomb at you to keep you occupied::
The Xtortionist
Member
"Hey guys, there's a Juggernaut with two gunners! Let's charge him!"
: /
: /
renzengeki
Neo Member
can anyone send me an invite to the GAF clan here in twisted metal?
PSN: Renzengeki
PSN: Renzengeki
Shin Kojima
Banned
Well this is fucked.
Since the last PSN downtime I can't access my garage anymore. I had no problems getting to the garage with my Dutch account as long as I set my location to USA on the site, but now when I try that it has some message about my account being from a different region or whatever (my copy is imported).
Fuck you Sony. I wouldn't have had to deal with this if you didn't censor the EU version.
You're a bunch of fuckheads.
Since the last PSN downtime I can't access my garage anymore. I had no problems getting to the garage with my Dutch account as long as I set my location to USA on the site, but now when I try that it has some message about my account being from a different region or whatever (my copy is imported).
Fuck you Sony. I wouldn't have had to deal with this if you didn't censor the EU version.
You're a bunch of fuckheads.
The Real Napsta
Member
Two questions:
Is the third patch out yet?
Is the "dark car" problem fixed yet for custom cars?
EDIT: Thanks Uni.
Is the third patch out yet?
Is the "dark car" problem fixed yet for custom cars?
EDIT: Thanks Uni.
Downloadable patch 3 is not out as of late last night.
"Dark car" issue is fixed, but now there's a slight washing out problem. Some small color artifacting sometimes too. Certain textures come out really low quality too, like Shadow's canvas top when I use a custom skin.
Boogalogist
Member
EU version launching today. Here's hoping to some fresh meat coming in!
With the servers still broken they won't stay long.
And Sweet Tooth looks like crap.
Road Boat is beastly. Magnet pull with shotgun sidearm is just grand, especially with super boost unlocked/used. Megaguns make holding them that much more delicious.
and dayum does JYD take a beating. Chased this one guy in the red forever. Was trying to get the movie theater health, but I kept popping up, trolling his aiming. Finally got him before he could blow the movie reels away. hahaha
I think I'm going to put Shadow on the backburner for a bit, because my Slam Boat is too damn much fun. I love hearing those on their mics muttering "Yagya" under their breath or saying "suck a DICK YAGYA!" when they finally take me down because it means I'm a thorn in their side.
Though, I have no idea why my rating went from the high 80's all the way to mid 20's. Either way, I don't care because in-game you can tell when the rating means jack shit.
It would be nice if they could get that new patch out in time for the new EU people playing.
...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
EDIT:
Rattle, this is hilarious. Stop talkin' like that in front of the kids!
and dayum does JYD take a beating. Chased this one guy in the red forever. Was trying to get the movie theater health, but I kept popping up, trolling his aiming. Finally got him before he could blow the movie reels away. hahaha
I think I'm going to put Shadow on the backburner for a bit, because my Slam Boat is too damn much fun. I love hearing those on their mics muttering "Yagya" under their breath or saying "suck a DICK YAGYA!" when they finally take me down because it means I'm a thorn in their side.
Though, I have no idea why my rating went from the high 80's all the way to mid 20's. Either way, I don't care because in-game you can tell when the rating means jack shit.
deets? I haven't tried skinning Tooth yet.
It would be nice if they could get that new patch out in time for the new EU people playing.
...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
EDIT:
Rattle, this is hilarious. Stop talkin' like that in front of the kids!
Guy got told alright. Shame we didn't get it recorded Fucking funny stuff.
Yeah, "you feel you can say that word all you want, but if a white person says it you'll get pissed off. Don't use that language in front of my daughter. I'll turn that off right now!"
"SHUUUUUUT UUUUUUP!!" Then countless n-word drops.
shortly after, everyone is booted. I guess he was host and she had heard enough.
Internet ducks are a growing problem these days.
And no, that's how it was the first week. Now I usually last 3 or more matches before that happens.