DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Sadly, the marketing machine has done that and continue to gaslight and feed that beast.
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strange headache
Banned
The conditioning is real, 10 years ago I never would have believed that citizens of a modern democracy would happily crap on their free speech liberties when it is one of the most fundamental human rights.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Musks masterful business acumen on full display.
Government deciding the truth? This again sounds like troll conspiracy. There's peer review on everything. Oversight. Regulation. All this stuff exists in the West.
People not wanting to support a platform for antivaxxers, hate speech, anti-lgbqt+ isn't authoritarian, isn't antifreespeech, isn't left/right, and isn't a directive coming from the government.
If Twitter runs afoul of some regulation and has to face consequences from Musk acting out his hero fantasy in his imaginary culture war saving the civilization from suicide that's not authoritarian either.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Dogmatic marketing 101.
Facebook and Twitter have admitted to regular meeting with the fbi to discuss moderation, and the government having special portals to report misinformation and accounts for banning.
gothmog
Gold Member
How about c) Twitter could have been important for opinion making, but a right wing babyman decided to use it as his personal playground and waste 44 billion dollars in the process. He is quickly turning it into his personal echo chamber which influences nobody but people that already liked the smell of Elon's farts.
That may have to do with real criminal issues. Most high profile bans took way longer than what an authoritarian government would tolerate after sending in any goons. Speaking of this though, I'm looking forward to seeing how much lipstick Musk put on the pig he's bringing out to prove some government conspiracy involving Twitter records.
strange headache
Banned
Dafuq, historically speaking, free speech once used to be the most important political demand of progressives, secularists, abolitionists and free thinkers. Despite "regulation" and "oversight", atheists weren't allowed to speak, slaves weren't allowed to speak, homosexuals weren't allowed to speak, because said "oversight" outright forbade it. I don't give a crap about your personal opinions on the flavor of the month social controversies, the right to speak benefits everybody!
Also "peer reviewing" only works effectively for natural sciences/STEM. Sociology, gender studies and parts of political science are in the absolute crapper right now due to ideological peer pressure. Professors are literally afraid of being fires for speaking their minds, that is NOT what universities should be about.
Opinion | I Came to College Eager to Debate. I Found Self-Censorship Instead. (Published 2022)
When we censor ourselves, our learning environments suffer.
Elon isn't even right wing...
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It's all in the wrist
Member
I think you follow Elon too much. He's one (very vocal) guy. There are plenty of liberals on Twitter.
Do you not remember when the POTUS was banned? It's no more radical a shift than that.
And they still can now due to circumstances that led us to today and those standards remain. As free speech remains. You and those in your bubble are saying it's ideological. It's not. Free speech isn't under threat because people don't support Musk and twitter. Civilization isn't going to commit suicide. That's the hysteria of the ideological. Face reality dude. You live in denial and rationalization for your politics and fantasy culture war.Dafuq, historically speaking, free speech once used to be the most important political demand of progressives, secularists, abolitionists and free thinkers. Despite "regulation" and "oversight", atheists weren't allowed to speak, slaves weren't allowed to speak, homosexuals weren't allowed to speak. I don't give a crap about your personal opinions on the flavor of the month social controversies, the right to speak benefits everybody!
Also "peer reviewing" only works effectively for natural sciences/STEM. Sociology, gender studies and parts of political science are in the absolute crapper right now due to ideological peer pressure. Professors are literally afraid of being fires for speaking their minds, that is NOT what universities should be about.
Opinion | I Came to College Eager to Debate. I Found Self-Censorship Instead. (Published 2022)
When we censor ourselves, our learning environments suffer.www.nytimes.com
Elon isn't even right wing...
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Just a bit of clarification on that:
The monthly meetings with the CISA, FBI, and other agencies occurred prior to the 2020 election to discuss how to combat election misinformation.
Regarding the portals:
Facebook and Twitter met with the DHS to discuss combating misinformation from our enemies, such as China and Russia. The portal, known as a Content Request System or CRS's, are/were* used by relevant government employees to report items of security concerns for the platform holders to scrutinize. The platform owners analyze the reported content and moderate independently. They do not coordinate with other entities on those decisions. One of the leaked basic whitepapers regarding Facebook's is here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23129270-fb-portal
* = Last I read / heard there's questions as to whether or not they still exist or are in use.
Some people conflated and twisted these actions and items to suggest that the CIA, CISA, FBI, and/or DHS (the agencies involved vary depending upon who was making the claims) was moderating the general goings-ons at social media companies. That was never shown to be the case.
Edit: I should say, do I believe there was no influence? I don't know. Of course it is/was possible. Just clarifying things.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
What's really weirding me out about all this, is trying to figure out what Musk's critics stand for?
I mean, there seems to be a lot of angry people, but what exactly are they so furious about that they are literally taking the side of other big corporations and powerful vested interests in the media in opposing him?
Someone want to make the case as to why Musk needs to be stopped? I'm genuinely curious to interrogate that line of argument.
strange headache
Banned
Individual rights simply don't "remain" if you don't keep fighting for them, free speech included. Only because you agree with the current censorship, doesn't mean that the opinion you don't like should be banned from public discourse. There is plenbty of academic literature on the "culture war", inform yourself instead of spouting the same bullcrap.
Academic freedom on the decline
Academic freedom is a universal human right. Yet, the 2022-release of the Academic Freedom Index (AFI) reveals that almost two out of five people worldwide live in countries where academic freedom has…
www.fau.eu
Critics of FIRE’s Free Speech Rankings get it wrong — again.
An op-ed by former FIRE intern Emma Camp published in The New York Times called on colleges to redouble their efforts to cultivate intellectual freedom in the classroom.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You need someone to explain to you why people think hate speech and dangerous conspiracy theories need to be properly moderated?
It's been debated unto death for pages and pages. Just read the thread.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Sweet buttery irony.
gothmog
Gold Member
I try and not follow Elon, but my feed is filled with basically either him directly or someone talking about him. I honestly did not care if he bought it or not and do find his trolling often funny. But honestly, why would anyone want to advertise there in its current state? And since we're mentioning Apple, I think it's a good reminder to point out that Apple was led by a guy that not everyone liked or agreed with. The difference is this: Apple succeeded because of Steve Jobs the leader, not because Steve Jobs decided to brag daily about how good his leadership is and plaster his hot takes all over his products. Elon should remove himself from what is frankly a waste of his time arguing on Twitter and focus on actually making a better product. I know I would respect him more if he did.
I did not necessarily agree with the POTUS permanent ban but I did think Twitter was correct in removing his ability to use the platform for some time. This is where I think everyone in this thread is getting it wrong. Free speech means being able to say what you want. It does not mean that what you say should be amplified. If it did then we could all just demand airtime on our local TV channels spewing whatever we wanted, right? After all, if you won't broadcast my bullshit then I must be getting censored, right?
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Guys can we cut the political BS please.
I don't want the thread closed.
I don't want the thread closed.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Well, I'd put it to you that despite all the recent concerted efforts to expunge the things you claim, if anything things have simply gotten worse and worse.
Are you making the case that pre-Musk Twitter was a force for good?
Have we got a kinder, gentler, more accepting society and online discourse? Because my perception is that things are incredibly polarized, rabidly intolerant and accusatory.
I see no evidence for a reduction in "hate", I don't see more truth and honesty in politics, in fact what I perceive is the absolute nadir of trust in institutions and the media.
Am I wrong?
Most often people are critical of those that make things up to claim they are saving civilization by fabricating problems that don't exist and pretending to solve them. There may be some directly affected by this that get angry if it the fabrication involves them making the problem.
For me it's partly about active observation of cults of personality.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You're literally emoji reqcting and signal boosting politics you approve of in here.
So disigenuous, much bad faith, many lights being gassed.
strange headache
Banned
Rules for thee but not for REEEEEEEEEEEEEYou're literally emoji reqcting and signal boosting politics you approve of in here.
So disigenuous, much bad faith, many lights being gassed.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Look, I'm 56 years old and at no point in my life can I recall a time where society was this fractured.
Its pretty nutty. Looking online and what we appear to be seeing is a literal bifuraction of the "world" along party-political lines. We have left-leaning social media and platforms and right-leaning social media and platforms each creating silo'd audiences and economies. What started out as cable-news serving particular political/demographic consitutuencies (Think Fox vs CNN) it appears to be expanding out into almost two internets.
This is not fantasy or paranoia on my part, this is actual, observable reality.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
The literal thesis of this Twitter fiasco.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Can we please stop disingenuously pretending that pointing to advertisers leaving or pointing out that they have the right to leave is somehow "defending" them or their history? Or that by pointing any of that out that we are championing some kind of Democracy killing agenda? It's so fucking stupid.
For example I hate Apple. I think they are a shady as fuck company that pushes overpriced and overhyped products. I have never owned an iPhone or any other apple product since I was 16 and had an iPod. But I am still going to point to them pulling out of Twitter due to Musks recent actions as being completely justified and point out that they have a right to do it. That doesn't mean I am defending them or their track record on human rights. It just means I have eyes and that I am pointing out the obvious.
The whole timeline of events and the ridiculous breakdown of discussion as events have gone on is just silly at this point. It's just accusing for the sake of it now and serves no real purpose.
Step 1) Musk makes bad content moderation decisions.
Step 2) People like myself and others criticize these decisions and point out why they are bad.
Step 3) Companies get nervous and pull their advertising
Step 4) People on here accuse companies and members of this, that, and everything else in order to avoid addressing Musks very obvious mistakes.
Step 5) Musk is now publicly attacking those advertisers. Another provably wrong move for someone in his situation.
Step 6) People point out Musks bad decisions are what is actually driving the exodus and that the companies have a right to distance themselves.
Step 7) Now anyone who points out the companies have rights too just hate free speech and want a dystopian hellscape.
That is the basic timeline of events since Musk took charge. It is just a load of nonsense. None of it means that any of us pointing out Musks mistakes are defending companies, their histories, or pushing for some dystopian hellscape of corporate driven authoritarianism. None of us are rooting for the death of Democracy.
If Twitter fails Democracy will be fine. If Twitter starts moderating hate speech and conspiracies tomorrow free speech will not die. At no point will the future of western civilization depend on the success or failure of Twitter. Anything or anyone even trying to push that nonsense needs to step away, touch grass, and get some perspective.
For example I hate Apple. I think they are a shady as fuck company that pushes overpriced and overhyped products. I have never owned an iPhone or any other apple product since I was 16 and had an iPod. But I am still going to point to them pulling out of Twitter due to Musks recent actions as being completely justified and point out that they have a right to do it. That doesn't mean I am defending them or their track record on human rights. It just means I have eyes and that I am pointing out the obvious.
The whole timeline of events and the ridiculous breakdown of discussion as events have gone on is just silly at this point. It's just accusing for the sake of it now and serves no real purpose.
Step 1) Musk makes bad content moderation decisions.
Step 2) People like myself and others criticize these decisions and point out why they are bad.
Step 3) Companies get nervous and pull their advertising
Step 4) People on here accuse companies and members of this, that, and everything else in order to avoid addressing Musks very obvious mistakes.
Step 5) Musk is now publicly attacking those advertisers. Another provably wrong move for someone in his situation.
Step 6) People point out Musks bad decisions are what is actually driving the exodus and that the companies have a right to distance themselves.
Step 7) Now anyone who points out the companies have rights too just hate free speech and want a dystopian hellscape.
That is the basic timeline of events since Musk took charge. It is just a load of nonsense. None of it means that any of us pointing out Musks mistakes are defending companies, their histories, or pushing for some dystopian hellscape of corporate driven authoritarianism. None of us are rooting for the death of Democracy.
If Twitter fails Democracy will be fine. If Twitter starts moderating hate speech and conspiracies tomorrow free speech will not die. At no point will the future of western civilization depend on the success or failure of Twitter. Anything or anyone even trying to push that nonsense needs to step away, touch grass, and get some perspective.
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strange headache
Banned
This is such a blatant misrepresentation of the actual discussion at hand it's not even funny anymore.
LegendOfKage
Member
I've strictly made a point to argue AGAINST political BS. If people are stepping over the line here, I would hope for them to be thread banned, so the rest of us can continue. I don't know exactly where the line is because it's never been explicitly stated, so I make it a point to avoid it as much as possible, and I suggest others do the same.
I'm trying to speak against the polarization of red vs blue, left vs right, and instead speak in terms of power, which all political parties will naturally seek to expand and abuse if left unchecked and unchallenged.
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gothmog
Gold Member
This isn't that new. Politics is now covered 24x7 and is treated like a team sport. People get so passionate about their sports teams that they would literally hurt someone wearing another sports team's colors. And this is a literal game.
Now take that team sports behavior and add in some fearmongering about people taking away something from you (money, guns, freedoms, etc). The only surprising part is that it hasn't really escalated.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Are you kidding me? lol
You more than anyone else have accused people of random nonsense. The previous pages are filled with it.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
It wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. There is just alot of political commentary, Left vs Right, and even direct political links being shared.
I can't even comment on them because I don't don't want to cross the line myself and get the hammer.
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Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kanye.
These other silos I haven't been to, but they sound much less populated. That gives the sense that Twitter, which may have been left leaning(or at least West leaning), was more centrist, represented most people on the platform, and any claim it needed a drastic change based on a threat to civilization around political extremism is false.
daffyduck
Member
Alt right is basically someone one disagrees with.
strange headache
Banned
LegendOfKage
Member
I'm sorry if you feel that I've misrepresented you or your beliefs. Take Musk out of the equation. For a moment, take hate speech out of the equation too, as the moderation rules haven't changed on twitter so far, and Musk has already said that he will not allow hate. Do you support the idea of the government deciding what is true, and working with social media to remove anyone who disagrees, or threatening intervention if social media doesn't do more to remove what the government has decided is misinformation? My belief is that's too much power, and even if you agree with the things they're censoring now, and think that it's perfectly sensible and right for them to do so, power never stays with any group forever. Does that make sense?
Again, my criticism is about power, not left vs right. And I agree with you that Musk is a very imperfect champion for free speech given his work with China. If nothing else, we can find common ground there.
strange headache
Banned
This!
They don't stand for anything and generally don't have any real principles. They're outraged because that's what their hive mind tells them they're supposed to do. That's all I can really say without dabbing into politics.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
If you're referring to my clarifying post, that involves interactions between bureaucratic bodies and social media companies, and only dealt with policies regarding foreign enemies.
And without getting political. just stating facts: the inklings of this story was broken by a far-left media org which I won't mention for obvious reasons, and pretty much finished up by a right-leaning org, which again I won't mention.
All in all, despite some sniping between some people, shit's been pretty cool actually.
Amiga
Member
Musk could pull it off. Team up with another privately held company with an older digital store than..
Steam Mobile OS
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I wasn't. Like I said its just the whole thread going off topic and into politics.
I don't want it closed. Its a fun thread when it isn't going off the rails.
Swift_Star
Banned
So... they actually want to force Apple to advertise on twitter?
Way to go, freedom of choice, freedom of speech!
"Land of the free", they said.
Some sniping. lol. The entire body of one post directed at me didn't have any other content. Not a complaint, what made it cool for me was that comment was a good springboard for the pressing question of what Musk meant with "woke mind virus leading to the suicide of civilization?" which seems to be pressing Musk's twitter decisions. The only answer I found so far, which appears to have been the trigger for the aforementioned post, still remains unchallenged.
Guilty_AI
Member
No, they want to force apple to host twitter on the App store. This has been a long ongoing debacle that involved a number of other companies like Epic games most recently.
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Swift_Star
Banned
Apple shouldn't be forced to host any app they don't want to, lol.
Again:
"Land of the Free", they said...
Guilty_AI
Member
Personally i'm fine with anything that makes Apple unhappy.
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