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U.S. ups tsunami aid from $35 million to $350 million

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Do The Mario

Unconfirmed Member
LakeEarth said:
Like I said in the other thread, they said they were sending $35 million when the death toll was lower, it increases tenfold and so does the money. Makes as much logical sense as voting this administration in anyways.


I don’t even live in America but no, when Rumsfeld announced the initial aid package he said just that! It was an “initial package” and the bulk was still to come. He said something along the lines as

The 35 million dollar is an injection to help set up shelters, Aid workers and hospitals and deal with immediate necessities, the bulk of the package was still to come.

I posted this in the major thread but it got overlooked.
 

Shinobi

Member
Boogie said:
This aid donation pissing contest is just ridiculous on all sides.

"My country donated more per person than your country. Nyah nyah!"

Grow up, people.

It's sad isn't it...even a tragedy of this magnitude just has to become political. Though Bush hardly did himself any favours with his apparant tardiness.

That said, I doubt people are saying much if that idiot UN official hadn't blabbed his mouth the way he did. It's one thing to hope for a bigger contribution...it's another to smack 'em in the face, spit on their shoes, hold out your hand and then demand more. For all the lack of tact Bush generally shows, that UN official's display was even worse. Stupid fuck.

Can't say I was too happy with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin either...don't think he got off his vacation till three or four days after the fact. Simply not good enough.
 
Hell Yeah i just heard it on the news.......

Japan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>USA

500 mil.....Rock On.

I hope more donations keep coming in though.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Helping is the only thing that makes the bearing of all this even a bit easier. I was yesterday over at the Red Cross with people from my office, helping in sorting out the donations collected from the streets.

It felt really good to open case after case seeing them mainly filled with bills instead of coins. Biggest single donation I saw was 700 eur worth of bills folded together. This is spectacular as the bigger donatioins are done in the bank.

My company has a company-wide policy allowing employees to go out and help in crisis during office hours. In addition to that, we made a donation - I don't know the exact sum, but I've heard it's six figures at least.

News from Sweden

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/3001/a/36340

Statement by Prime Minister Göran Persson on 31 December following the natural disaster in Asia

Five days have now passed since the natural disaster occurred.
It has been confirmed that 59 Swedes have died.
There are now 3 559 Swedish citizens on our list of missing persons.

If this figure does not change shortly, this will be the most dramatic catastrophe in our history.

We must prepare ourselves for a long period of great distress.

I have already called for unity, and I do so again.

In schools and workplaces, in residential areas and service centres, in local associations and networks of every kind, the catastrophe will be felt.

Few families in Sweden will come through this unscathed.

Children will return to their school friends traumatised and grieving.

Many of us will meet parents who have gone through the worst possible experience, that of losing a child.

Colleagues will return to work and to unbearable uncertainty, uncertainty that will eventually become certainty that a colleague will not be coming back.

Health care and social services staff will meet people who have experienced a natural disaster, the kind of trauma we have previously seen relatively little of in Sweden.

Neighbours will live with their concern about unlit windows and closed doors.

Many, many Swedes will lose close friends, relatives and acquaintances, and it will hurt for a very long time.

Every single person who can make a contribution, large or small, will be needed.


And the new years speech by the President of Finland

http://www.presidentti.fi/english/

Statement by President of the Republic Tarja Halonen on the catastrophe in South Asia

The earthquake that hit the coast of Indonesia on 26 December and the subsequent tidal waves have caused incomprehensible destruction and human suffering. So far over 100,000 people are known to have died. The number of injured and homeless is much larger.

The devastation caused by the catastrophe has affected people around the world, including Finns. According to tour operators about 3,000 Finnish tourists were in the area hit by the catastrophe. Hundreds of other Finns were there independently.

Up to now we have received official confirmation that four Finns have died. Considering the extent of the catastrophe we must be prepared for the number of Finnish victims to rise.

My sympathies go to all those who have suffered in the catastrophe and my deepest condolences to those who have lost loved ones. I also share the concern of those who are waiting to learn the fate of loved ones. You are not alone. Your grief and concern are shared by us all.

Aid work in the disaster area began immediately and is still going on. The Finnish Government decided quickly to evacuate Finns from the area. Local residents, surviving tourists, organizations, tour operators and public authorities have worked together to help people in distress as well as possible in difficult circumstances. I want to express my thanks and support to all those who have helped. I will continue to follow the situation in close cooperation with the Government and public authorities.

Finland is grieving. Loved ones touched by the catastrophe will need our support in the days to come. Let us help them in a spirit of togetherness.

The countries hit by the earthquake and tidal waves and the people who live there also need our compassion and aid. In many areas life will have to be rebuilt from scratch. This can only succeed through cooperation. Let us be prepared to help.
1b4cfa47.jpg
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
It's a shame that the tsunami didn't hit half the people that posted in this thread.

Uh, I guess I'm happy that the government gave more money, but your pretty naive if you thought all the US was going to give was $35 million anyway. I'm glad to see the citizens who can donate money, did donate money as well. But instead of the world getting into a global pissing contest over aid, I'd like to see people cooperate and get the supplies to the people who desperately need them right now. Who cares how much anyone gives if the people who need aid can't get it. Less people want to address this issue and rather just go, "The US is greedy and mean!"
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
That is another big issue. It's good to see the US sending marines to affected areas.

Though I'm wondering about this "coalition". Bush seems to like coalitions ;) It could undermine the UN efforts though, and just complicate things. Everyone should be working together.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
I also highly doubt all these countries will ever see from the United States is a $350 million check and a hand wave from government officials, as we continue with the rest of our lives.

This is one of those things where this government and many other world organizations will probably spend years trying to aid, rebuild and help prevent catastrophes of this magnitude from happening again.
 

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
So, $350 million from America, $500 million from Japan, European Union $40 million + additional $300 AND $500 million (at the moment) from individual states totalled. The World Bank is giving $250 million. At the moment, 'the world' is giving aprox. $2 billion. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I wonder what % of promised funds is really gonna be given. I remember what was promised to Afganistan.
 

Shinobi

Member
I wonder all the more if these countries will have to pay this money back. Canada suspended the debt payments of the affected countries for an indefinite period of time effective a few days ago, which might be where these countries could really use the help. Hopefully other nations do the same thing, if they haven't already.
 
The comments on this forum aren't anything. A poster on another forum was totally bashing Europe for donating "only" $5 million (his number). :lol
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Just opened the TV - respecting the National Sorrow in Finland, no commercials are shown in the commercial networks - they are replaced with footage of mourning from all around the world, as well as pictures of empty beaches, with classical music on the background.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
norinrad21 said:
No its not, rich countries should be ashamed sometimes. They need to put their fucking money where their mouth is.

No, it is a pissing contest.

I spend more than you! No, I will spend more than you! No, now we will spend more than you! Not if I spend more than you first!

This will probably only escalate since Japan has raised the stakes, but it really doesn't matter. Again, what matters is getting aid to people, not how much aid is being given out at any one time.

Anyone who thinks that any of these "rich" countries were just going to write a check and call it a day, are naive. And not just America, but European nations as well. When a catastrophe happens of this magnitude, support will come over the long haul. The world is not used to dealing with numbers like this all at once.
 

Iceman

Member
Stop it, Federman.. you're making too much darn sense!!

"They need to put their fucking money where their mouth is."

The money's coming, what they need to do is put feet on the ground and get their hands dirty. It's about MANPOWER.

How pathetic is it for someone to just throw money at a problem throusands of miles away and then just assume everything's fine now?
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Bush just upped it to 2 Billion dollars. I believe a little STFU is in order.

:lol

... What's next?

EU: "I see your TWO BILLION and I raise you A TRILLION AND A FREE COUNTRY OF YOUR CHOICE!"

EDIT: I'm not seeing this anywhere, Tommie. Link?
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
WedgeX said:
The U.N. has said that the total relief package is up to 2 billion...not the US giving 2 billion.

Yeah, I just saw that.

I was really going to laugh, out loud and such, if the US gave $2 billion. Do we even have $350 million? Not that the victims don't need it or don't deserve it, and that the nation can't find a way to finance such a package, but where exactly is Bush getting the money from?

His personal checking account?
 

Socreges

Banned
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Bush just upped it to 2 Billion dollars. I believe a little STFU is in order.
Yeah.

STFU, Tommie Hu$tle. That's $2 billion combined. :p

Yeah, I just saw that.

I was really going to laugh, out loud and such, if the US gave $2 billion. Do we even have $350 million? Not that the victims don't need it or don't deserve it, and that the nation can't find a way to finance such a package, but where exactly is Bush getting the money from?

His personal checking account?
Someone pointed out that the USA gives Israel $15 million every 9 hours. So if they could just cut them off for a month, perhaps.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Socreges said:
Someone pointed out that the USA gives Israel $15 million every 9 hours. So if they could just cut them off for a month, perhaps.

Every nine hours? Where? Does that include Christmas?

Who works on Christmas?

... Really?

That really doesn't answer my question. Bush & Co. come up with all this money for everything, from allies to war funds, and I'm wondering where the money comes from?

It's not like the government has a surplus of cash as of right now. In fact, I believe we're up to our eyeballs in debt, so much so that we can taste all the bullshit.

So, they've got to be financing funding projects such as these and I'm wondering how they do it.
 

Socreges

Banned
Willco said:
Every nine hours? Where? Does that include Christmas?

Who works on Christmas?

... Really?

That really doesn't answer my question. Bush & Co. come up with all this money for everything, from allies to war funds, and I'm wondering where the money comes from?

It's not like the government has a surplus of cash as of right now. In fact, I believe we're up to our eyeballs in debt, so much so that we can taste all the bullshit.

So, they've got to be financing funding projects such as these and I'm wondering how they do it.
Oh, I'm sorry. Because I thought removing aid from Israel and supplanting it into South Asia would be up for serious consideration!

To be honest, I just think it's interesting. Billions and billions each year given to Israel.

And yeah, I just think your debt is going to get larger, though I'm admittedly ignorant when it comes to economics.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Socreges said:
To be honest, I just think it's interesting. Billions and billions each year given to Israel.

Who cares? Did a tsunami wipe them out? If not, I'm not sure why they're in this topic! We give a lot of money to a lot of countries. Whoopity-doo!

And yeah, I just think your debt is going to get larger, though I'm admittedly ignorant when it comes to economics.

I'm not much for economics either, but I don't think the government would hand out billions of dollars each year expecting not to get paid back from an overdrawn bank account...

... would they?
 

Socreges

Banned
Willco said:
Who cares? Did a tsunami wipe them out? If not, I'm not sure why they're in this topic! We give a lot of money to a lot of countries. Whoopity-doo!
I care. I believe I recently said "I just think that's interesting", IIRC. Y'know, how people are meanwhile concerned of where $350 million is going to come from when considerably more is given to a single nation that isn't nearly as crippled.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Socreges said:
I care. I believe I recently said "I just think that's interesting", IIRC. Y'know, how people are meanwhile concerned of where $350 million is going to come from when considerably more is given to a single nation that isn't nearly as crippled.

I'm going to try not to be harsh, but take your agenda elsewhere. I don't care if you think it's interesting. Again, the United States gives tons of money to other countries besides Israel, and they're not tsunami victims so they shouldn't be in this topic.

My question is, how are they financing this package?

Not "HEY WHY IS AMERICA GIVING ALL THIS MONEY TO ISRAEL AND NOT TO SUMATRA?"
 

Socreges

Banned
Willco said:
I'm going to try not to be harsh, but take your agenda elsewhere. I don't care if you think it's interesting. Again, the United States gives tons of money to other countries besides Israel, and they're not tsunami victims so they shouldn't be in this topic.

My question is, how are they financing this package?

Not "HEY WHY IS AMERICA GIVING ALL THIS MONEY TO ISRAEL AND NOT TO SUMATRA?"
See, you could have just not said anything. It's quite clear that the only intention was to slam the US for throwing so much money at Israel - the parallel, once again, being that people are concerned about $350 million (relative pittance). This isn't some underhanded agenda. I'm putting it out there. Those that can get defensive, such as yourself, can get defensive. Those that find that stunning, as I do, can do so. Besides that, it's just a freaking comment. Relax.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Willco said:
I'm going to try not to be harsh, but take your agenda elsewhere. I don't care if you think it's interesting. Again, the United States gives tons of money to other countries besides Israel, and they're not tsunami victims so they shouldn't be in this topic.

My question is, how are they financing this package?

Not "HEY WHY IS AMERICA GIVING ALL THIS MONEY TO ISRAEL AND NOT TO SUMATRA?"
the US does give aid to other countries, but it's directly tied to their approval to our international agenda, be it Iraq, the ICC, terrorism at large, our security needs and/or resource requirements. it's a pragmatic, realist notion, and its noteworthy to all those idealists who believe the US is the height of humanitarian concern.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp for a pretty large overview.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Socreges said:
See, you could have just not said anything. It's quite clear that the only intention was to slam the US for throwing so much money at Israel - the parallel, once again, being that people are concerned about $350 million (relative pittance). This isn't some underhanded agenda. I'm putting it out there. Those that can get defensive, such as yourself, can get defensive. Those that find that stunning, as I do, can do so. Besides that, it's just a freaking comment. Relax.

What-fucking-ever. Backhand comments in order to provoke a reaction is what you did, not just make some simple comment.

scorcho said:
the US does give aid to other countries, but it's directly tied to their approval to our international agenda, be it Iraq, the ICC, terrorism at large, our security needs and/or resource requirements. it's a pragmatic, realist notion, and its noteworthy to all those idealists who believe the US is the height of humanitarian concern.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp for a pretty large overview.

Oh, I'm not saying the US is generous. I'm saying they give aid to other countries, and that's regardless of whatever the agenda is. I was just pointing out Israel is not the only country. I believe Turkey also gets billions in aid, but I don't think a tsunami hit them either. It's all based on the foriegn agenda and understandably so.

I would like to know how the government finances such aid packages, though.
 
i really don't see why you're getting so defensive, willco. socreges highlights a perfectly valid point concerning the ridiculous amount of aid money we supply israel every single year and what we've given so far in this horrific tragedy.

i can't fathom a single reason as to why israel needs 20billion+ a year in US aid -- especially now seeing as how israel has everything it needs and wants. shit, just a years payment would suffice for a decade.

and yes, other countries are given aid, but not at the absurd us to israel rate.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Willco, you're being dense.


First, you ask how the US is financing these donations. This was the initial comment you made:

I was really going to laugh, out loud and such, if the US gave $2 billion. Do we even have $350 million? Not that the victims don't need it or don't deserve it, and that the nation can't find a way to finance such a package, but where exactly is Bush getting the money from?

His personal checking account?

So you're asking where the money is coming from. In response, Socreges posts this:

Someone pointed out that the USA gives Israel $15 million every 9 hours. So if they could just cut them off for a month, perhaps.

Ignoring your disbelief that this is the case (which is true-- we give Israel ~$10M per 9 hours every day of every year; $9.5B in aid per year, divided by 365 days, divided by 24 hours, multiplied by 9-- do the math), you then asked how they finance such aid packages. You posted this:

It's not like the government has a surplus of cash as of right now. In fact, I believe we're up to our eyeballs in debt, so much so that we can taste all the bullshit.

So, they've got to be financing funding projects such as these and I'm wondering how they do it.

If you were just asking a general question about how we go about financing aid packages-- be it emergency aid such as for the tsunami, or yearly foreign aid packages to countries such as Israel, Egypt etc.-- then that's fine. However, if you were at all making the case that this spending is unjustified/excessive (which I believe you were since you said that you'd "laugh out loud" if we gave $2B), then I think it is perfectly reasonable to bring into the conversation some other (imo) unjustified expenditures, such as our $9B+ yearly aid to Israel, our bloated military budget, or our corporate welfare projects. It's reasonable in general, and also in particular because you pointed out the fact that we're supposedly "strapped for cash" due to our national debt. Do you "laugh out loud" at our absurd subsidization of Israel each year, since we "don't have the money"? I mean, is Bush getting the money from his "personal checking account"?


Now, it's true that we're strapped for cash, and I can grant that-- all I ask for is consistency, as I mentioned a few pages ago. The burden of making the case for not adequately funding the humanitarian effort currently underway on the basis of our national fiscal insolvency lies with those making such a claim. In other words, it's up to you to show that all our other expenditures are fully justified and necessary. Because, as it stands, all it takes to respond to your question-- which is, "how do they finance projects such as this?"-- is for someone to say, "the same way they manage to fund Israel, our military, and our corporations each year despite our insolvency" (none of whom need the money). It's a perfectly legitimate line of argumentation, and you're entirely in the wrong for assuming it's not so.


As for why one focuses on Israel and not the "many other nations" who receive yearly aid from the US, perhaps-- just perhaps-- it's because our annual aid to Israel comprises nearly 40% of our yearly foreign aid for the entire world. Now, for a nation of under 7 million people, and one which already has one of the highest per capita incomes in the world (nearly equal to Britain's), I find that to be a tad excessive. Especially when one considers that we've already given them over a quarter of a trillion dollars since 1973. FYI, Turkey (to use your example) receives roughly $200M in aid each year from the US (less than 2% of the amount we give Israel), and the country has a population of ~70M (10 times that of Israel) and a per capita income of about $3000 per year (compared to Israel's $18,500, which is first-world status). Now please tell me why people are not justified in singling out aid to Israel as opposed to aid to countries such as Turkey. Turkey recently received (or is on the verge of receiving) additional aid due to the war in Iraq, and also to bail out their economy, which was in grave trouble from what I gathered, but the $200M figure is for the regular, annual aid over the past decade excluding such exceptional circumstances, same as the ~$10B yearly figure for Israel is.


Now, I'm not asking you to justify why we give them so much aid, because frankly it's not justifiable in any sense imo. Some aid? Sure. But not $9B+ per year (some estimates actually put this figure at $14B per year, if you include all loan guarantees). If we were giving another relatively prosperous, sparsely populated nation ~$10B per year in aid, I'd say the same exact thing, because I feel that it's entirely unjustifiable.



As for the precise answer to your question-- about how the US finances aid packages etc. despite our debt-- you'd have to ask someone more well-versed in economics than myself. I'd imagine that it involves us borrowing against our assets as well as foreign nations investing in our economy somehow (buying bonds etc.). But, again, it does nobody any good to cry about "how we're going to finance this aid" when we finance a great many other unnecessary things all the time despite our debt. If you're that concerned, let's start curtailing unnecessary expenditures across the board, not only when it suits our politics-- that's the point that people are making.
 

skrew

Banned
DarienA said:
Late me be a party pooper....

You know it's so nice that all our problems here at home with homelessness, poverty, etc. have been solved so that we have extra money to lend aid elsewhere....
yea i'm sure that money is better spent giving a the rich a tax cut
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
yea i'm sure that money is better spent giving a the rich a tax cut

And the rich pay the bulk of taxes. So if you give a proper tax cut and return it proportionally, the rich would naturally get their equal share back, which would be much larger than what the poor would receive. Are you suggesting that we should return the same amount of money to everyone? That sure as hell doesn't make sense.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
I didn't say it would solve those problems.

But are you suggesting that taxing more, and then throwing cash at government programs is the magic trick? I don't think so. There are people out there that are just lazy and won't do anything, and taxing more would put more pressure on businesses and damage the economy.

The real problem is when hardworking people are homeless. I don't think that's a huge problem right now. Correct me if I'm wrong with some links.

And why do the rich have more of a moral responsibility to solving other people's problems? Since when is being more successful a crime (that's relative, I don't consider many professional sports players successful yet they're rich, I'll concede that). The rich are already paying lot more percentage of their money.

You didn't answer one of my questions. Do you think it's morally just to tax people at different rates, and then return a tax cut of equal value to all? So if we start a pile of money, I'll put in $5, you'll put $95. Tax cut time...we both get $50 back.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
teh_pwn said:
And why do the rich have more of a moral responsibility to solving other people's problems? Since when is being more successful a crime (that's relative, I don't consider many professional sports players successful yet they're rich, I'll concede that). The rich are already paying lot more percentage of their money.
:lol Self-entitlement theories of the well-off. We don't live in a world of infinite resources, tot.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
I didn't say there were infinite resources, and I'm not suggesting a flat tax. I think things are fine as they are. But tax cut giving all people the same amount of money is stealing.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
What you were suggesting was the rich are entitled to their money. I find both the notions of wealth and entitlement extremely nebulous. What I do see is a concrete correspondence between wealth and destitution. There is invariably exploitation. So taxing the rich more and giving them less back on tax breaks is not stealing -- it's promoting economic democracy.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
teh_pwn said:
The rich are already paying lot more percentage of their money.


You do realize that though the "rich" pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes, and accordingly constitute a larger portion of our tax revenues, they are currently not being taxed (percentage-wise) proportional to the percentage of the wealth that they possess, right? So it's entirely fair, and carping about their tax burden is really an attempt to obscure the issue that they control far more wealth and assets than they are paying for, proportionally, in taxes. If the "rich" are paying 30% of all taxes in this country (admittedly a high amount for such a small group), yet control 60% of all wealth (an exceedingly high amount for such a small group), is that really unjust and excessive taxation? I'd argue no.


For instance, the top 1% of earners in the US pay 19% of all income taxes. Outrageous, no? Well, not when you stop to consider that they control over 40% of the wealth.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Hitokage said:
I can't believe this thread.

1. To even suggest that the scale of this catastrophe was unknown until recently is bullshit. Are you THAT dependent on the Party on what to think you can't guess what putting a 9.0 earthquake in the eastern Indian Ocean will do?

2. You should be glad the US has now decided to be so generous, not that people will "shut up".

3. Now that the ante has been raised, the pressure is now on OTHER countries to match, not for the US to continue to increase. And to the jingoists, shouldn't America have gotten into this position to BEGIN WITH instead of letting the EU do so?

Hito pretty much touched on every single feeling I have towards this thread. The one addition I'd like to make is that as big as the deficit is, if the big, dark money hole is created because we're writing 9 digit checks to help people through a major disaster, I'm all for it. It certainly echos of the America I once knew, the one that didn't run up huge tabs on wars that no one but money men wanted.
 

Shinobi

Member
Shinobi said:
It's sad isn't it...even a tragedy of this magnitude just has to become political.

Good to see the thread's continued on the same path.





xsarien said:
It certainly echos of the America I once knew, the one that didn't run up huge tabs on wars that no one but money men wanted.

More like the America you thought you knew, heh.

Hmmmm...guess I've gone all political as well. Pathetic really.
 
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