Uematsu: Square collapsed after Sakaguchi left. Situation was awful after he quit.

Jesb said:
Sometimes a departure goes down like this. I was worried when Mikami left Capcom but thankfully they haven't been affected and RE is as good as ever.
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Honestly you could tell an extremely similar story at Capcom during that time. RE5 and 6 followed and were very controversial. Capcom had some okay stuff but mostly squandered the whole PS3 gen adjusting to the explosion in western console games, PS3 development, HD development. Clover closed down after multiple bombs and Platinum opened. Capcom luckily bounced back on PS4 and managed to reboot Resident Evil with a new engine after abandoning the Panty Raid engine. Now they're doing fairly well, but still have limited new IP, lots of remakes, and some engine issues showing up late into the gen on open world stuff.

What saved them is a strong gameplay first development structure so they had a deeper bench and could bounce back. Even then, it's taken 6 years to get Pragmata out. Itsuno just left, but Kamiya is back so we'll see.
 
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Sophist said:
Sakaguchi almost single-handedly bankrupted square with his final fantasy movie. Sony and Enix had to intervene to save the company; He had to go.
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He is the best when it comes to game development but that one big mistake really haunted Square which might be the reason for him being release from Square. To be honest the movie is decent, but they should have made the settings, environment, story, etc, like FF7 or FF8 or FF6. It is a good movie, but it does not feel final fantasy.
 
My latest sting from SE is the way they treated FFX Remaster. Cmon you couldn't do have a decent job to one of your biggest games ever?
 
Punished Miku said:
Honestly you could tell an extremely similar story at Capcom during that time. RE5 and 6 followed and were very controversial. Capcom had some okay stuff but mostly squandered the whole PS3 gen adjusting to the explosion in western console games, PS3 development, HD development. Clover closed down after multiple bombs and Platinum opened. Capcom luckily bounced back on PS4 and managed to reboot Resident Evil with a new engine after abandoning the Panty Raid engine. Now they're doing fairly well, but still have limited new IP, lots of remakes, and some engine issues showing up late into the gen on open world stuff.

What saved them is a strong gameplay first development structure so they had a deeper bench and could bounce back. Even then, it's taken 6 years to get Pragmata out. Itsuno just left, but Kamiya is back so we'll see.
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Was definitely a dark time for Capcom and RE but they rebounded completely from it. RE7 was a turning point for the whole series continuing that gave birth to the remakes as well.
 
Revolutionary said:
The situation is going to get even worse since their golden goose, FFXIV, is heading in a downward trajectory.

For those that don't play XIV: last week, Yoshi-P pissed off casual and midcore players because he admitted that the reason why the newest raid doesn't have a Normal mode is due to "cost". That's right, "cost" is holding back the game that is singlehandedly holding up SE. People are getting sick of the excuses (it took them SIX YEARS to implement working hats on the two newest races), and combined with the amount of players dissatisfied with the latest expansion, there's gonna be a rude awakening come next expansion.

Edit:
www.pcgamer.com

Despite bankrolling Square Enix, 'cost' is somehow the reason Final Fantasy 14's newest raid (which has only been cleared 400 times in 23 days) wasn't given an easier version

CS3's got its priorities all backwards.
www.pcgamer.com www.pcgamer.com
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Their management is just so bad. Remember that time they tried getting into NFTs? I, like most other people in this topic I suspect, feel the company's been a headless chicken running about for decades now, just splurting out money as FF14 tries stuffing in more to keep it going. The company feels aimless.

The first two points you mention sound pretty fair, but word on Dawntrail has been more mixed afaik. Not an FF14 guy, but I've heard some people say it was naturally going to be smaller in scope than Endwalker which was a major concluding point in the story but have also heard the execution could have been better, on the new characters in particular?

AJUMP23 said:
They haven't made a good single player FF since FF12.

Bring back Sakaguchi and Make FF Great Again.
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Dragon Quest XI (specifically the S version, with non-butchered, actually orchestrated, not crap MIDI music) is a good game. Looking over Square-Enix's internal output over the past couple decades, I don't see any other original title since FF12 that I've felt compelled to play. Some of the titles they've published have been good, but that's about it.

Incidentally, for a while, I had started thinking big studios just can't make exciting trailers for big budget JRPGs in the modern landscape anymore (that have general appeal and don't just appeal to me personally and genre fans like me itching for our next fix), but Clair Obscur reminded me that it's very possible.
 
Yeah things were never the same after he left the company. SE just needs to convince him to come back and start making FF great again.
 
Going by this thread, you'd be excused for thinking no one thinks Square Enix any good these days...

It's easy and tempting to think The Guy was individually responsible for The Goodness and after He departed, The Badness took over, but that's just not really the case.

I have no doubt it was extremely dramatic internally when Sakaguchi left Square. On the other hand, the dude's track record post-Square really speaks for itself. None of those games are even close to being able to carry a franchise like FF.

I think Square is as good as it has ever been, and continues to remember its core identity. 🤷‍♀️ FF16, gameplay aside, is more tonally aligned with classic Final Fantasy than any FF in ages. Rebirth is self-evidently a product of people who were absolutely obsessed with the original FF7. Of all the improbable things Square could do, there is an active Saga renaissance going on.

They've still got the juice. The sales may not reflect it, but the quality and continuity is there.
 
hinch7 said:
Yeah things were never the same after he left the company. SE just needs to convince him to come back and start making FF great again.
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He's expressed little desire to return to and work with AAA again some years back. He might've had a mild change in that outlook since then and could get persuaded to come back. But, I doubt that, since SE is heavily bound by shareholder expectations and such.
 
Hypereides said:
He's expressed little desire to return to and work with AAA again some years back. He might've had a mild change in that outlook since then and could get persuaded to come back. But, I doubt that, since SE is heavily bound by shareholder expectations and such.
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Eh he's had his little projects lol. Would be nice to see him return. I've seen him more recently on on social media visiting their HQ which is nice. And wishful thinking here.. but hoping something more would come from that.

I think that it would greatly benefit the company if they decide to take him on again. If anything SE needs a big kick up the backside to get people excited for FF again as a whole. With that franchise being one of the pillars for the company right now.
 
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Another misstep was releasing the most critically acclaimed and best selling Dragon Quest game ever in 2017 and then farting around with spinoffs and remasters for eight years since then instead of capitalizing at all. In the mean time, two of the three pillars of the franchise identity have died too. Great job Square.
 
Happened in a lot of creative fields in the early 00s.
The old guard who were creatives themselves leave and the some business unit takes over. Everyone looses.
 
I like current FF games, but you can see they feel different from previous ones, not only in gameplay but "something" else... Still it retains a lot of what makes FF great and added new elements to complete the new formula, it really looks like that factor was a big part of what made FF much more than being "just a producer"
 
AJUMP23 said:
They haven't made a good single player FF since FF12.

Bring back Sakaguchi and Make FF Great Again.
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Sure they have, but they haven't made one as great as 6-12. That's peak Square.

They have made good games since then in general but again nothing great. That's the issue, the fall from grace.
 
Well, duh.

And add in TT's departure as a factor, too.
Do you not see what he's done working with Nintendo? It's been phenomenal.

Edit - Let's not forget Masato Kato. :)
 
Here's my favorite part of Uematsu's tweet;

"I thought to myself – Oh no, I should get away from here."

😂
 
Pagusas said:
Worth noting that Hironobu Sakaguchi has been lost without Square also. Mistwalker has not lived up to expectations.
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Blue Dragon was great
Final Fantasy XIII.......I mean Lost Odyssey was absolutely fantastic
Fantasian as it is now is also really really really good.
 
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Punished Miku said:
Well it's 100% true 🤷‍♂️ . Director of the game worked on X. Similar art styles. Calm Lands similar to the Plains area in XIII and introduced at the same point in terms of pacing. Similar focus on lore and religion. The games are actually pretty similar in many ways. That group is now working on FFVIIR. Same type of design philosophy as always, just getting better at open world, Unreal Engine, and filling it with more side content. FFX is almost as linear as XIII is, just has a better endgame. Same OST composer as well.

Nothing really changed from X to XIII except the challenge of making a game on PS3 in the HD era for the very 1st time on an unfinished Crystal Tools engine. There's not a lot of indication that Sakaguchi would do much differently other than maybe delay the game to allow them more time to finish it. But again, this is the first major game coming out in the HD era from them with costs ballooning right after he nearly bankrupt the company, so it's unclear if he could even get the delay honestly.

Proof that its a bigger issue than just Sakaguchi, look at every other Japanese developer during this time from any publisher. Some good stuff but it was almost a lost decade. Sakaguchi was out before all of that.
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Drugs.
 
TonberrysKnife said:
Not to go off topic here. Many of us still remember the Squaresoft Renaissance in the late 90s/early 00's. I feel that if they can give a lot of their old IP's the remaster treatment, they could recover even more here.
  • Bushido Blade
  • Einhander
  • Parasite Eve 1 & 2
  • Brave Fencer Musashi and Samurai Legend: Musashi
  • Vagrant Story
  • Ergheiz
  • Tobal No 1 & 2 (RIP Akira Toriyama)
  • Threads of Fate/Dewprism
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That was indeed peak square. All those games were easy 9/10. Don't really remember threads of fate though.
 
Arsic said:
Sure they have, but they haven't made one as great as 6-12. That's peak Square.

They have made good games since then in general but again nothing great. That's the issue, the fall from grace.
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Made good games. Not a good ff. 13 was a no. I didn't want to play 15. And 16 started out looking great. I saw to combat and said no.
 
I quiet enjoy their smaller games, I think they still make great jrpgs when they get it right.

However they do make a lot of dumb design decisions.

I tried FF 16 demo on xbox recently. I think it plays amazing. The way Clive handles, evades, attacks etc there is certain craft and quality to it.

But I never got this bored playing a game in recent memory either.

Their recent games are almost always very few steps away from greatness, but they always botch them.

I blame trying to chase COD sales.
 
Bullshit, he made great stuff but Square Enix sales kept growing since he left in 2003

image.png


In the stock market they also kept growing, except the 2008-early 2013 period:
image.png
 
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I widely discussed this with my friends at the time, if you followed and played Square games it was obvious, its great to see we were right after all these years 😄
 
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I wouldn't have guessed things were that bad. I know FF has struggled with identity since he left with X (and some felt X was missing something from the PS1 golden age) and I remember XII being delayed or at least taking a while to release after X but I thought XII was a great product.
 
Main problem with FF right now is that the mainline games aren't on Switch. FF was huge in Japan yet PS is dead there.

I think if they correct that, things will be OK.
 
Revolutionary said:
The situation is going to get even worse since their golden goose, FFXIV, is heading in a downward trajectory.

For those that don't play XIV: last week, Yoshi-P pissed off casual and midcore players because he admitted that the reason why the newest raid doesn't have a Normal mode is due to "cost". That's right, "cost" is holding back the game that is singlehandedly holding up SE. People are getting sick of the excuses (it took them SIX YEARS to implement working hats on the two newest races), and combined with the amount of players dissatisfied with the latest expansion, there's gonna be a rude awakening come next expansion.

Edit:
www.pcgamer.com

Despite bankrolling Square Enix, 'cost' is somehow the reason Final Fantasy 14's newest raid (which has only been cleared 400 times in 23 days) wasn't given an easier version

CS3's got its priorities all backwards.
www.pcgamer.com www.pcgamer.com
Click to expand...
because most of the profit that FFXIV got not been properly invested back to the game, instead it was used to feed other divisions. it is second biggest MMO on the planet right now and biggest profit contributor to the company aside mobile section for decade. they made tons of profit from that game. however FFXIV got suck dry out.

some fans also speculated that Yoshida purposely let that slip during livestream.

basically FFXIV carry the company on its back. hard to imagine how Square Enix will be without the game.
 
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Revolutionary said:
The situation is going to get even worse since their golden goose, FFXIV, is heading in a downward trajectory.

For those that don't play XIV: last week, Yoshi-P pissed off casual and midcore players because he admitted that the reason why the newest raid doesn't have a Normal mode is due to "cost". That's right, "cost" is holding back the game that is singlehandedly holding up SE. People are getting sick of the excuses (it took them SIX YEARS to implement working hats on the two newest races), and combined with the amount of players dissatisfied with the latest expansion, there's gonna be a rude awakening come next expansion.

Edit:
www.pcgamer.com

Despite bankrolling Square Enix, 'cost' is somehow the reason Final Fantasy 14's newest raid (which has only been cleared 400 times in 23 days) wasn't given an easier version

CS3's got its priorities all backwards.
www.pcgamer.com www.pcgamer.com
Click to expand...
FFXIV story ended after Endwalker, the game is in maintenance mode now

The same thing happened to FFXI so I didn't know why anyone is surprised
 
Paltheos said:
The first two points you mention sound pretty fair, but word on Dawntrail has been more mixed afaik. Not an FF14 guy, but I've heard some people say it was naturally going to be smaller in scope than Endwalker which was a major concluding point in the story but have also heard the execution could have been better, on the new characters in particular?
Click to expand...
the problem with Dawntrail is that it is the new main writer on the job still incompetent. the previous great expansion writer already step back. one of it join their single player team for FF16 and another one that responsible for Shadowbringer and Endwalker got promoted to supervisor position and didnt involve much anymore.

the Dawntrail scope is not smaller. it still same as previous expansion. Endwalker is the special case since it like the Endgame of FF14 so more effort was poured. however the issue that itseems the Dawntrail expansion is handled by newer people instead of veterans and these people seems to be not ready yet. particularly the writer. the previous expansion success add such higher bar. the fanbase actually didnt put much expectation due to the new writer however, they didnt expect it would be this bad. one of major problem is the handling of certain new main character of the expansion. FF14, despite being a MMO, the story still wrote with the player as the main character. the character still has major role in plot and lore of the world as whole. however since Dawntrail, the writing for the expansion is like player didnt exist and the new character is spotlight hogging for most of the scene to the point it take away proper attention of other character. its like the devs want to delete the player character. its like a spit on players face. imagine that, the character has 3 times more dialogue than second most important character in the expansion. if the rest of character combined, it still nowhere close the that character dialogue number. most of cutscene second part of the story also start with her face first shoved to player throat. the writing also become talk no jutsu. voice acting quality also degraded. players also notice that the marketing team even actually prepared tons of marketing material for the character like second coming of Lightning. its like there is weird obsession to the character. today, they definitely avoid to post any image regarding the character on social media since the comments gonna be nasty.

on post expansion patch they start taking player feedback however some issue still persist despite they tone down certain aspect like the problematic character focus. however players already sour over it. the main expansion story also still wont change and go anywhere. so playerbase actually waiting for another big patch to conclude the Dawntrail story as whole so they can say goodbye to the expansion and that character while hoping the next expansion would be better.
 
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Punished Miku said:
There's really no guarantee he would do all that much differently to be honest. I think it would be better if he was there but they would still face many of the same challenges that came after he left.
  • He was there for FFX and FFXIII was basically the spiritual successor to that game. Its not some departure honestly.
  • WRPG going mainstream didnt occur until after he left.
  • HD games era development challenges. Ballooning staff and dev times.
  • PS3 development challenges.
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This Up Here GIF by Chord Overstreet


there is no guarantee they can avoid the the HD era development struggle even with Sakaguchi. this is the main turning point in their history. this affected most of japanese developers that time too. Square Enix output gonna be totally different if it didnt happen. even today, they basically just recover from the impact.

unless, he mandated the devs use third party engine like UE3 than develop their own or atleast dont force the engine to be used on multiple project at once. however due to how ambitious of him for FF Spirit Within movie, im not suprise if he end up make same mistake. one of problem with Square Enix that time is they are too ambitious and arrogant at same time.
 
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Mercador said:
Sakaguchi and Uematsu ARE final fantasy.
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I have to agree. It never felt the same after The Spirits Within got churned out, after The Honnolulu Studio was established. I read into all of that like Final Fantasy was going to usher in a new generation of graphics, but, sadly... it didn't turn out that way. FFSWI flopped hard and rightfully so. He strayed away from what made Final Fantasy... I don't know what he was thinking. He got canned because of The Spirits within, If I remember correctly. It lost them a lot of money and kind of tarnished the brand.
 
Wildebeest said:
Nobody cares about what Sakaguchi does because he can't use the name Final Fantasy and that is all the nostalgic nerds care about.
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Sales say you're right, but I'd love another chance to play the Last Story without having to dig my Wii out of storage.
 
Collapsed is an interesting take. It's not like they haven't and continue to release a multitude of great games since he left... which they have.

Failed or collapsed is a term I'd use for a company that couldn't release any good games anymore because all principle talent left. If anything, Sakaguchi damn near collapsed SE after he pissed all the money away on a B-tier film.
 
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