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UFC 193 OT: Ronda Rousey vs Holly Holm / First PPV headlined by 2 womens Title Fights

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3

3N16MA

Banned
She should have embraced her busted face and not hide. She is a fighter and it happens. Hiding just makes her look worse.
 
D

Dash_Riprock

Member
vadrigar said:
Sherdog always delivers:

vZIclT.gif
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Is the original post still up?
Edit:Banned nevermind.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
3N16MA said:
She should have embraced her busted face and not hide. She is a fighter and it happens. Hiding just makes her look worse.
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Yeah, worst part imo. Kinda confirms the whole thing as a failed marketing experiment trying to maintain an image rather than a fighter owning their loss with pride.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Zampano said:
How do you figure that? It's the complete opposite:

1. MMA starts standing and is reset to standing at the start of each round, regardless of how the last one ended. So a grappler can take you down, dominate you for a round but you are given a reprieve when the bell goes.
2. Refs will stand fighters up for inactivity on the ground.
3. The short rounds don't give grapplers much time to work at all (submissions take time to set up) before they are reset to standing.
4. The gloves favour strikers because they protect the hands and reinforce them into an unnaturally rigid shape - meaning that you can hit way harder than you could without them. Their smaller size (compared to boxing gloves) also means punches are harder to block. Finally the gloves get in the way when grapplers would otherwise be able to worm their hands into advantageous positions.

It was true in the early days that MMA rules were set up to play to the strengths of BJJ (no rounds, 20 minute matches, bare knuckle, no stand ups), but these days the rules are heavily weighted toward strikers - mainly because fans prefer knock outs to grappling.
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Takedowns are weighed way more heavily than strikes. You don't even get a mandatory point advantage for knocking your opponent down or being especially dominant during a round like you would in Boxing (10-8/10-7 rounds). Hell even Refs standing up relative inaction is a directive from the UFC itself moreso than it is in the Unifed MMA rules.

Then there's the fact that grappling wears down the defending fighter very fast and defending makes their arms and legs (to a lesser extent) fill up with lactic acid faster, diminishing striking effectiveness.

There's a reason why most of the successful UFC fighters over the past 10 years or so tend to have a strong base in wrestling or grappling. Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Frankie Edgar, GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, even Rousey all have either a strong wrestling or grappling base. Even KO artists like Lidell and Hendo have a wrestling background that enabled them to keep it standing and use their power to get their KO's.
 
V

virtuoso88

Member
Jest Chillin said:
There's a reason why most of the successful UFC fighters over the past 10 years or so tend to have a strong base in wrestling or grappling. Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Frankie Edgar, GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, even Rousey all have either a strong wrestling or grappling base. Even KO artists like Lidell and Hendo have a wrestling background that enabled them to keep it standing and use their power to get their KO's.
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And you didn't even get into pride with fedor and sambo and all the bjj fighters.
 
Clear

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Ronda went in with a terrible 1-dimensional game-plan and paid the price for it. Simple.

Massive props to Holly Holm, great performance and victory but the simple truth is the way Ronda was sloppily chasing her was just asking for trouble - particularly against a such a decorated boxer.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Even without examining which rulesets favour/disfavour one aspect of MMA over the other the notion that grappling is the base of the pyramid generally holds true. Superior wrestling is, in and of itself, a defence against a superior striker. For a striker to use their stand-up as defence against a superior grappler is much rarer; generally it's people at the upper echelons of the sport, using footwork, stances and shot selection tailored to that goal, combined with some level of defensive grappling acumen as well.

ApharmdX said:
It is. I'm not sure how MRAs adopted it, though, or how it came to be linked to them.
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I think the idea is that by taking the red pill you open your eyes to the reality that women have seized control and have constructed a world where they are paid less, judged more harshly for their body image and sexual choices and are beaten, raped and murdered by men in order to oppress them.
 
J

JasonUresti

Member
ApharmdX said:
The outcome was not obvious, for a lot of different reasons. I mean, I picked Rousey to win quickly. See, you have to put Rousey in the proper context- women's MMA is still a budding sport. It's where men's MMA was 10 years ago. And in that environment, someone like Ronda Rousey who is 1) an amazing grappler and 2) the best athlete in her division can be dominant.

There was a fighter named Mark Kerr in the late 90's. He was a Div 1 wrestling champ in college and entered MMA with minimal striking or submission training. Despite this, he reeled off a string of dominant wins. Here's Kerr:

latest


He was a monster athlete.

Rousey is a lot like Mark Kerr- a world-class grappler and an amazing athlete. MMA rules favor grapplers, especially wrestlers and also judoka like RR. The problem is, eventually every grappler run into a striker who they can't take down and are forced to fight standing. This is what happened over the weekend. Is Holly Holm a good fighter? Well, yes. She's one of the three most-decorated pro boxers to ever fight in MMA.
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Actually not true about Kerr. Kerr trained with BJJ guys not long after he started MMA and worked on his striking with legit people. After a few months of training BJJ he was basically untappable in training to anyone there, even the top black belts.

There was reason Kerr was the best Abu Dhabi submission tournament guy, subbing people like Barnett and nearly choking out Mario Sperry. Even years later a fat and untrained Kerr only lost to Ricardo Arona by one point. That match would have been easy for Kerr at his peak.

Kerr's problem was getting addicted to paunkillers and going through pretty bad personal problems. The two combined destroyed his mental focus and damaged him physically.
 
C

crazygambit

Member
I just watched the fight again at half speed after hearing both analysis videos (even the 1 hour long one) and I have to say it was illuminating.

Rousey was totally outclassed, but she still had some good moves and probably would have won against any pure boxer of Holm's level (or even a little better). She had some opportunities, but Holm was just perfect in her defense. Amazing level of concentration and cool head.

Ronda loses the fight on the first round, between 1:38 and 0:58. In 40 seconds Holm completely destroyed her. I mean, she was obviously losing by then, but she was still in it. After those insane left straights it was completely over. At 0:58 when Holm lands a massive left straight and Ronda catches Holly with a left of her own that makes her drop her mouthguard, you can see how Rousey is completely gassed, taking deep breaths, gasping for air with her hands on her hips. Meanwhile Holm is perfectly composed. It was completely over at that point, the rest was almost a little mean.
 
D

diaspora

Member
Rousey's striking form is atrocious. She's an amazing grappler and has a lot of strength but damn if her hitting technique is bad.
 
G

Gherid__lacksGPS

Banned
zPRwvBb.gif


JasonUresti said:
Kerr's problem was getting addicted to paunkillers and going through pretty bad personal problems. The two combined destroyed his mental focus and damaged him physically.
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This. Kerr was more than just a highlevel, freak of nature wrestler. His progression was something special and its a damn shame he had so many demons and shit people aroumd him. If anyone is interested in some OG fighters, check out the documentary "Mark Kerr: The Smashing Machine." At least, I think that's it.
 
Z

Zampano

Member
Jest Chillin said:
Takedowns are weighed way more heavily than strikes. You don't even get a mandatory point advantage for knocking your opponent down or being especially dominant during a round like you would in Boxing (10-8/10-7 rounds). Hell even Refs standing up relative inaction is a directive from the UFC itself moreso than it is in the Unifed MMA rules.

Then there's the fact that grappling wears down the defending fighter very fast and defending makes their arms and legs (to a lesser extent) fill up with lactic acid faster, diminishing striking effectiveness.

There's a reason why most of the successful UFC fighters over the past 10 years or so tend to have a strong base in wrestling or grappling. Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Frankie Edgar, GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, even Rousey all have either a strong wrestling or grappling base. Even KO artists like Lidell and Hendo have a wrestling background that enabled them to keep it standing and use their power to get their KO's.
Click to expand...

Fair enough about the scoring. Your second point doesn't really make sense though - you could easily flip it to to say : "Then there's the fact that getting kicked and punched wears down the defending fighter and causes disorientation, diminishing grappling effectiveness". There are a lot of jokes in BJJ along those very lines - i.e. each punch landed strips away a belt level.

My point was about the MMA rule set - I honestly don't know how you could argue it favours grappling beyond takedowns getting high scores. Though, you could conceivably make the argument that the difficulty in landing a takedown should be rewarded highly. It is a very, very difficult thing to do to someone, let alone a pro fighter.

Agree you need to at least understand all elements of the game if you want success. Your examples are good.
 
E

eXtv

Banned
Gherid__lacksGPS said:
zPRwvBb.gif



This. Kerr was more than just a highlevel, freak of nature wrestler. His progression was something special and its a damn shame he had so many demons and shit people aroumd him. If anyone is interested in some OG fighters, check out the documentary "Mark Kerr: The Smashing Machine." At least, I think that's it.
Click to expand...

The Smashing Machine is a must-watch. Great backstage footage from the first Vovchanchyn fight as well as the Pride 2000 Open-Weight Tournament.
 
E

eXtv

Banned
funkystudent said:
So as someone who doesn't follow MMA outside of occasionally watching it while getting drunk at a friends house how obvious was the outcome of this fight?

Was Ronda getting called out for being sloppy before? What she being super protected by UFC and being fed jobbers or what this just a bad night for her?

Is Holly Holm a participially good fighter?
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Fans were irritated at messus Rogan & White's ridiculous praise of Ronda's striking for quite a while and whilst everyone knew Holm was a great deal more fundamentally sound, few thought she could keep her distance long enough to make it count.

A few of my friends, very long-time fans and experts, had Holm picked from the moment the fight was announced. Most fans did not. Ronda will almost certainly lose a rematch if they fight again in the next 12 months.
 
A

AxelFoley

Member
Gherid__lacksGPS said:
zPRwvBb.gif



This. Kerr was more than just a highlevel, freak of nature wrestler. His progression was something special and its a damn shame he had so many demons and shit people aroumd him. If anyone is interested in some OG fighters, check out the documentary "Mark Kerr: The Smashing Machine." At least, I think that's it.
Click to expand...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
 
B

BigDug13

Member
Zampano said:
How do you figure that? It's the complete opposite:

1. MMA starts standing and is reset to standing at the start of each round, regardless of how the last one ended. So a grappler can take you down, dominate you for a round but you are given a reprieve when the bell goes.
2. Refs will stand fighters up for inactivity on the ground.
3. The short rounds don't give grapplers much time to work at all (submissions take time to set up) before they are reset to standing.
4. The gloves favour strikers because they protect the hands and reinforce them into an unnaturally rigid shape - meaning that you can hit way harder than you could without them. Their smaller size (compared to boxing gloves) also means punches are harder to block. Finally the gloves get in the way when grapplers would otherwise be able to worm their hands into advantageous positions.

It was true in the early days that MMA rules were set up to play to the strengths of BJJ (no rounds, 20 minute matches, bare knuckle, no stand ups), but these days the rules are heavily weighted toward strikers - mainly because fans prefer knock outs to grappling.
Click to expand...

No elbows to the back, no knees to an opponent that has a knee or hands on the ground, no hits to the back of the head. If a grappler goes low on you and has a knee or hand on the ground, a striker is left standing there with no ability to strike back while getting hugged.

There aren't many rules as to what a grappler can and can't do, but there are a shitload of rules about where and when a striker and punch, kick, knee, or elbow.
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
Gherid__lacksGPS said:
zPRwvBb.gif



This. Kerr was more than just a highlevel, freak of nature wrestler. His progression was something special and its a damn shame he had so many demons and shit people aroumd him. If anyone is interested in some OG fighters, check out the documentary "Mark Kerr: The Smashing Machine." At least, I think that's it.
Click to expand...
Is that Rogan in the back? Those eyes, haha..

-MD- said:
I'm cracking up.

--
Haven't seen this one yet.
22604f.gif
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Bwahaaa, holy shit.
 
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