Prisoner KSC2-303
Member
I'd hazard a guess that the doubters are more mindful of the fact that Jeff was adamant the PS4k was just a firmware update.
Woosh...most of the posts in this page I consider a waste as no information is being shared. It's really over and over it's not real until it's real, a Car is not a Car until you fill the tank and take it for a drive. It's just a steel box that looks like a Car.
JaseC, my comment was tongue in cheek and was not meant to be taken seriously. Woosh was you missing it was humor. Sorry I gave you the wrong impression by mixing what followed into the Woosh. I was responding to the tone of the other posts."Whoosh"? You're not in a place to condescend to me, quite frankly. I answered a question, you misinterpreted the answer, I supplied clarification; and now, rather than express a modicum of humility, you claim that you were just being as "wasteful" as I was with the post you quoted. It seems you've taken offence, so let me be as clear as possible as perhaps there's a bit of a language barrier here: I wasn't saying that you would have, if given a tag, started speculating about everything and anything in order to live up to said tag. I was saying that if there were a point that a tag was being considered for you, you didn't receive one because there's a history of others interpreting the receiving of a tag as a green light to further define themselves by that behaviour. That's it. I was casting no aspersions on your character.
JaseC, my comment was tongue in cheek and was not meant to be taken seriously. Woosh was you missing it was humor. Sorry I gave you the wrong impression by mixing what followed into the Woosh. I was responding to the tone of the other posts.
Just as an exercise I'll do what I suggested you do:You're doing it again. You're grasping to fit things together. You haven't factored in the time frame of when that document was written. By the time it was written, the PS3 was a pretty established piece of hardware and we were getting HD resolutions out of it with most games being at around 720p. Everyone accepts it as a console that outputs HD resolution that ranges from 720p to 1080p. Nobody is going to sit there and look at a PS3 in real world conditions and label it as a 4K device. Not to mention none of the official documentation or the development documentation even eludes to 4K support on the PS3. Seriously use that document reading ability and go look up and study Occam's razor. You have the problem of trying to over complicate everything even in your replies to simple questions or statements. You did it before when discussing OTA signals. You did it again now in this very post.
The higher density is because the mark length is shorter. This makes the drive vulnerable to jitter errors unless that routine is updated. There is no difference to the laser. The laser frequency is tied to the pit depth and can't change. Reading multiple layers is a function of the return strength and focus of the laser and depends more on the disk than the drive. All blu-ray drives can read 3 or more layers.The laser in UHD Blu-ray players is tuned for the newer higher-density disc structure.
This isn't going to come down in firmware. Pipe dream Jeffy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray said:In January 2007, Hitachi showcased a 100 GB Blu-ray Disc, consisting of four layers containing 25 GB each.[77] Unlike TDK and Panasonic's 100 GB discs, they claim this disc is readable on standard Blu-ray Disc drives that are currently in circulation, and it is believed that a firmware update is the only requirement to make it readable to current players and drives.[78]
In December 2008, Pioneer Corporation unveiled a 400 GB Blu-ray Disc (containing 16 data layers, 25 GB each) that will be compatible with current players after a firmware update. Its planned launch is in the 2009–
On January 1, 2010, Sony, in association with Panasonic, announced plans to increase the storage capacity on their Blu-ray Discs from 25 GB to 33.4 GB via a technology called i-MLSE (Maximum likelihood Sequence Estimation). The higher-capacity discs, according to Sony, will be readable on current Blu-ray Disc players with a firmware upgrade. No date has been set to include the increased space, although in 2010 Blu-ray.com reported that "it will likely happen sometime later this year."[80]
Please read the cites. This is by design not accident that standard blu-ray drives can be firmware updated to support Version 2 disks. There are many other technologies that can support MUCH larger volumes and they were not used. The BDA wanted to make it as easy as possible to support UHD Blu-ray.http://kotaku.com/5441116/sony-increasing-the-storage-capacity-of-blu-ray-discs said:Sony and Panasonic have announced plans to increase the capacity of Blu-Ray discs (such as those used by PS3 games) from 25GB to 33.4GB. Hideo Kojima will be so pleased!
According to a report from Nikkei, the increase comes courtesy of some new ways to evaluate content on the disc. Or, in more technical terms, is thanks to new partial response maximum likelihood (PRML) signal processing, which "assumes inter-symbol interference, which makes it difficult to base optical disc quality evaluation on jitter, as is widely done now for Blu-ray and many other optical discs".
Now, there's good news, and there's good news. Good news first: this advance will be compatible with all existing Blu-Ray players, as all that's required is a firmware update. So the technology will find its way to PS3 games soon enough.
And the good news? The increase applies to all layers of the disc. So as soon as dual-layered Blu-Ray discs start becoming common, you'll be able to fit 66.8GB of data on a disc.
Too large. I hoped that the OFFICAL documents stating that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable would at least allow an acceptance of the HDMI 2 port and HEVC but it appears there are still conceptional issues.What happened to the previous thread with a great title?
Combo ATSC 1 & 3 TV tuner to IPTV which should be selling by LG and others the end of 2016 or by Q1 2017. They will be Vidipath Antenna/Network tuners.The ATSC 3.0 wireless network antenna is based on an LG-developed unidirectional antenna array with electronic steering logic designed to optimize indoor reception. LG is integrating a chip-based ATSC 3.0 tuner-demodulator with the antenna, which can be placed anywhere in a home—the attic, in a window, in a closet—wherever reception is best.
The steerable network antenna is coupled with a network interface to communicate with the in-home WiFi router to allow connected devices to blend ATSC 3.0 signals and services with over-the-top Internet-delivered content. The Wireless Network Antenna also is designed to receive current ATSC 1.0 DTV transmissions and similarly route them to an array of consumer devices.
I'll try to make this simple, it's important that you understand the following:I can barely comprehend what you have posted, Jeff - but let's assume for arguments sake a PS4/Xbone could technically play a UHD disk via firmware update. Even with that concession, I don't believe either Sony or Microsoft would provide it when new hardware iterations are on the horizon. It doesn't make business sense.
I would love to be wrong about this. I will eat crow then rush home to my new/old UHG player. However, between your near La Forge-esque technobabble and the business side of the existing UHD market - you have to understand why so many people regard this as a pipe dream.
ALL UHD media delivery schemes use the same standards INTERNATIONALLY for the first time. ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV) will also be supported internationally.
That's not true in the slightest, though. If games come on the same media as ever and can be played by every iteration of every PS4 console, nothing is in any way broken. Regardless of which PS4s do or don't get UHD BD support, we've already been told that developers are limited to plain old BD-50 discs (or at least that's the consensus in the leaks).Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.
That's not true in the slightest, though. If games come on the same media as ever and can be played by every iteration of every PS4 console, nothing is in any way broken. Regardless of which PS4s do or don't get UHD BD support, we've already been told that developers are limited to plain old BD-50 discs (or at least that's the consensus in the leaks).
The launch 360s didn't have HDMI out; later versions did. Launch PS3s could play PS2 games; later versions couldn't. The Wii could go online; the Wii Mini couldn't. Early Wii models could play GameCube games; later versions could not. Exclusive support for UHD BD (as a media format only, playing movies, TV shows, etc.) in a later model would be less of a big deal than any of those. Even just getting into media features, the fat PS3 can't bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD, but the slim PS3 can. Why do you think this would be unprecedented?
In Letters by the EU related to voluntary energy efficiency, 2017 is mentioned as:http://www.tweaktown.com/news/51972...e-powerful-ps4-neo-rocks-10-tflops/index.html
10 TFLOPs of performance is more than the 8.6 TFLOPs an AMD Radeon R9 Fury X can belt out, so we could see full native 4K gaming on the new Xbox NeXt. Phil Spencer has hinted that hardware upgrades, component swapping, and even possible external GPUs could come to next-gen Xbox consoles, so we could see that with the Xbox NeXt.
Since all UHD Media uses HTML5 <video> MSE EME in some manor (UHD BLu-ray uses the C-ENC format but with AACS2) this could explain the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Consoles not being firmware updated till after September 2016. Firmware 4.0 should occur after this date, in any case it's usually sometime end of September to middle of November. PS4 VR starts October and a firmware update should occur before then.https://www.w3.org/blog/2016/04/html-media-extensions-to-continue-work/ said:The HTML Media Extensions Working Group was extended today (April 2016) until the end of September 2016. As part of making video a first class citizen of the Web, an effort started by HTML5 itself in 2007, W3C has been working on many extension specifications for the Open Web Platform: capturing images from the local device camera, handling of video streams and tracks, captioning and other enhancements for accessibility, audio processing, real-time communications, etc. The HTML Media Extensions Working Group is working on two of those extensions: Media Sources Extensions (MSE), for facilitating adaptive and live streaming, and Encrypted Media Extensions (EME), for playback of protected content. Both are extension specifications to enhance the Open Web Platform with rich media support.
Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.
Someone is gonna get an epic tag as a result of this thread
Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.
Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.
Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.
To Jeff's mind, this wasn't a theory: it was a certainty.A theory actually has to be put together before it can fall apart.
It was never going to happen, they had not even finalized the spec in 2013 when these launched. This is never going to happen irrespective of the length of posts that Jeff keeps on posting.
OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...
So what will his excuse be for the PS4?To Jeff's mind, this wasn't a theory: it was a certainty.
I'm curious to see how he responds to all of this. My guess: he'll say that there is a firmware update coming, but Microsoft is keeping it under wraps to promote the Slim. He'll also probably say that even though the Slim releases in August, Ultra HD Blu-ray capability won't be patched in until September or October. (Because it's not like you can go to Best Buy and pick up an Ultra HD Blu-ray player now or anything. All of that has to wait for HTML5 <video> MSE EME and on and on and on.)
Let them, it makes it that much more delicious later.OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...
What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD?
Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.
What delay? When did Microsoft and/or Sony ever say "hey, we're going to update every version of our consoles in January to support Ultra HD playback"? You're extrapolating wildly to arrive at the conclusion that there was ever a firmware update in the first place.What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD?
If you guys bother to look, Microsoft still has no UHD blu-ray Licence
No, I've stated the microsoft-sony.com domain registration by Microsoft was possibly for Microsoft to handle the embedded DRM and Sony the UHD Blu-ray parts for the Consoles and PCs. This time since all UHD Media uses HTML5 for the UI and HTML5 <video> EME MSE low level C-ENC format for the player and DRM hooks, writing the UHD Player is much easier but there are more APIs that have to comply with standards across multiple platforms. This is likely why there are no UHD Blu-ray PC applications and no Game Console UHD blu-ray players yet.I don't think it's on us to provide a reason for something like that.
Why are you talking about MS not being licensed now? Doesn't that contradict your original argument?
The papers I quoted mention the UHD Firmware update for the Launch consoles would occur Jan 2016.What delay? When did Microsoft and/or Sony ever say "hey, we're going to update every version of our consoles in January to support Ultra HD playback"? You're extrapolating wildly to arrive at the conclusion that there was ever a firmware update in the first place.
They just added Sony with a UHD drive licence so within days.(1) We don't know how frequently updated the BDA's online lists are.
Yup it is UHD capable and could be firmware updated later after Microsoft buys the licence.(2) Microsoft's name wouldn't have to appear in any of these lists for UHD BD support to be a part of future Xbox hardware anyway. (3) Microsoft is on the BDA board and has repeatedly said today that the Slim will support UHD BD, so what is there to worry about?
Quote specifically where those documents said something to the effect of "every version of the PS4 and Xbox One will have a firmware update in January 2016 to support UHD media".The papers I quoted mention the UHD Firmware update for the Launch consoles would occur Jan 2016.
Microsoft isn't listed as a licensee of ROM3, ROM2, R1, R2, R3, RE2, RE3,or RE4 either.They just added Sony with a UHD drive licence so within days.
If you're speculating, don't spout off garbage like:and speculated that means after September for a UHD Blu-ray firmware update
Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).
I stated only the Launch (2013) consoles are mentioned for a UHD update Jan 2016. Page 10 in the first letter I cite has Navigation Tier 1 starting Jan 2014 with HD and UHD consoles (XB1 and PS4 Launch) using 90 watts and Tier 3 starting Jan 2017 with HD and UHD concoles using 70 watts which should be the Neo, XB1 and XB1 Slim.Quote specifically where those documents said something to the effect of "every version of the PS4 and Xbox One will have a firmware update in January 2016 to support UHD media". Page 10 in the letter I cite has Jan 2014 which is the Launch XB1 and PS4 date on a line with 90 watts for Tier 1 HD and UHD consoles and 70 watts for Tier 3 for both HD and UHD starting 2017 which should be the XB1 slim, NEO and Scorpio.
If it only says something vague like "Jan 2016 - UHD capable", then you're extrapolating.
It means that Microsoft did not write the HD blu-ray player for the XB1 but there are multiple other third parties that could have including Sony. No ROM3 drive listed with a Microsoft licence means Microsoft didn't make the drive...how is that relevant?
That statement is not wrong as anything south of the Second week in October is also August or September of 2016. I'm concerned with the delay so I am speculating on the latest it should come.If you're speculating, don't spout off garbage like:
Present your speculation as speculation, not as immutable fact.Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).
Okay, so there's nothing about a firmware update scheduled for January 2016. Gotcha.I stated only the Launch (2013) consoles are mentioned for a UHD update Jan 2016. Page 10 in the first letter I cite has Tier 1 starting Jan 2014 with HD and UHD consoles (XB1 and PS4 Launch) using 90 watts and Tier 3 starting Jan 2017 with HD and UHD concoles using 70 watts which should be the Neo, XB1 and XB1 Slim.
What I'm getting at is that you keep droning on about the significance of Microsoft not being listed as a licensee of ROM4 when they're not listed as a licensee of anything else either. It's obviously not relevant.It means that Microsoft did not write the HD blu-ray player for the XB1 but there are multiple other third parties that could have including Sony. No ROM3 drive listed with a Microsoft licence means Microsoft didn't make the drive...how is that relevant?
...which is why you fundamentally don't understand the difference between fact and speculation. If you're guessing, even if it's an informed guess, don't say that something will happen. It's common sense.That statement is not wrong as anything south of the Second week in October is also August or September of 2016. I'm concerned with the delay so I am speculating on the latest it should come.
Man would it be great if jeff_rigby was vindicated.
Let them, it makes it that much more delicious later. Chinn, NO ONE brought any evidence to this thread that the Launch consoles would not support ALL UHD media. I brought evidence to this thread that they could and were officially UHD capable. I then made the statement that they WILL support UHD blu-ray and for ADAM who has equivocated stating it might be possible but he takes issue only with my definite statement that it WILL, he should be finding issue with your definite statement that they will not support UHD Blu-ray.
Sony opens the conference:
"We've heard you wanted 4k blu-ray, right? Just update your console now. This one is for you Jeff!"
*drops the mic
can you follow a chart? UHD is not listed in the Media playback power tiers till Jan 2016.Okay, so there's nothing about a firmware update scheduled for January 2016. Gotcha.
It's only not relevant if Microsoft is not writing the UHD Blu-ray player. So if they aren't then who is? There are only 3 Licences for a UHD Blu-ray player.What I'm getting at is that you keep droning on about the significance of Microsoft not being listed as a licensee of ROM4 when they're not listed as a licensee of anything else either. It's obviously not relevant.
And we are back to my making definite statements but no criticism for others in this thread that do the same or Articles that make definite statements that the Launch Consoles can't....which is why you fundamentally don't understand the difference between fact and speculation. If you're guessing, even if it's an informed guess, don't say that something will happen. It's common sense.
Re-read the patent.Your evidence was never sufficient, Jeff. In fact you would need at least a BDXL-compatible drive to even hope to be able to playback UHD discs (which are based on BDXL specifications afaik) with the help of a firmware update. Neither Xbox One nor PS4 has such a drive.
A three-layer disc was refered to as 'version 2' in that one patent from 2010 so you've jumped to the conclusion that newer drives would (because they are new I guess) be 'version 2' compliant. The only three-layered discs are BDXL though and they are not supported by your average BD player, old or new, unless they are explicitly designed for the purpose of reading/writing those discs. A drive that does not support those discs is not outdated, it just serves a different purpose, which is way you may take the newest (non-UHD/BDXL) drive on the market and it won't be able to read that disc.
It's not convincing enough to me to inarguably, inherently mean a firmware update for UHD playback in every version of every console.can you follow a chart? UHD is not listed in the Media playback power tiers till Jan 2016.
Last I checked, the launch consoles can't play UHD BD media. They can't until they can, if that day ever comes. The point remains that even if it's technically possible, there's zero assurance that it'll come to pass. There are more arguments to be made about why it won't happen than why it's an inevitability.And we are back to my making definite statements but no criticism for others in this thread that do the same or Articles that make definite statements that the Launch Consoles can't.
That we know of. I'd be astonished if it's Sony. The developer of the software doesn't matter, though, since obviously there will be some method to play back UHD BDs on whatever models of Xbox hardware allow it.It's only not relevant if Microsoft is not writing the UHD Blu-ray player. So if they aren't then who is? There are only 3 Licences for a UHD Blu-ray player.
My issue is that he's spreading misinformation. People come into these threads and mistakenly believe that there has been some sort of official confirmation that Ultra HD Blu-ray playback is coming to these consoles. If he'd just say "this is what I've read, and this is what I think will happen", I'd have no problem with that. Not only he does he present his somewhat shaky speculation as fact, he can be incredibly condescending to anyone who disagrees.What is this thread? Why are people sniping at Jeff? He's presenting evidence that he has found and believes to be correct
Re-read the patent.
1) BDXL specs are from the 2010 BD-R paper. Even BDXL drives need a firmware update to properly work with a UHD Player but they can read version 2 disks which are the UHD Disks.
2) The 2010 patent mentioned Version 2 disks as 3 or more layers with the Panasonic-Sony tweak (reducing the mark length) which Sony says can be read by a standard drive that is firmware updated and all drives can read 3 layers. Reducing the mark length can create jitter and the routine that corrects jitter has to be updated or it's unreliable. This is why the patent covers a way to make the version 2 disk unreadable on a drive that has not been firmware updated for the Sony- Panasonic tweak. This is the major change for version 2 disks mentioned in the Mount Fuji book. The 2010 patent is not clear until you read the Mount Fuji book changes and when I first explained what the patent meant I was not, at that time, able to explain it clearly.
3) The Mount Fuji drive book 9 has the drive changes for UHD blu-ray and they are all firmware updates.