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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013

M

Marty Chinn

Member
Dash Kappei said:


And yet they had to ship the Slim with an updated HDMI chipset to allow HD Audio proprietary formats' bistreaming. Up to the Slim (and also only by firmware 2.30 in the case of DTSMA) the PS3 could only decode Dolby True HD/DTS HD/DTS MA internally to lpcm to enjoy HD audio with BRD.
This is also the reason why since the beginning PS3 games had to use the much more space-consuming LPCM 7.1 to offer lossless multichannel audio, like Resistance FoM for example, instead of DTS HD Master Audio.
Click to expand...


I believe this part is untrue. No games are doing real time encoding to DTS HD or Dolby True HD. There's also no point to encoding the audio at that point either. You're correct about movies, but you're wrong about the games angle.
 
V

Vinc

Member
These definitive thread titles are really misleading. Why not mention that it's speculation? It makes it sound like it's confirmed, when it's clearly not.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Vinc said:
These definitive thread titles are really misleading. Why not mention that it's speculation? It makes it sound like it's confirmed, when it's clearly not.
Click to expand...
So everyone understands the following is confirmed;

UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles.

So this is understood as confirmed:

The PS4 has a HDMI 2 port with HDCP taking place in Southbridge and the GPGPU block mentioned by Eurogamer in the PS4 and XB1 are Xtensa DSP accelerators that are used for HEVC and OpenVX (Vision processing and Codecs using GPGPU with special blocks that are 20-100X more efficient than CPU or GPU GPGPU at some tasks.)
Click to expand...

And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console

There is a BDA Licence for UHD Blu-ray game consoles and Sony has a License for a UHD Movie player/UHD BD-ROM Game Console/test player and a License for a UHD Blu-ray PC application.
Click to expand...

And the argument now is there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence ($60,000) and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.
 
V

Vinc

Member
jeff_rigby said:
So everyone understands the following is confirmed;

UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles.

So this is understood as confirmed:



And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console



And the argument now is there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence ($60,000) and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.
Click to expand...

You're just speculating and calling it confirmed. "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013" makes it sound like 2013 consoles are officially getting UHD Blu-Ray support. Then you're just presenting your series of assumptions based on loose evidence about energy efficiency. I know you really believe your theories, but please consider properly stating them as such?
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Vinc said:
You're just speculating and calling it confirmed. "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013" makes it sound like 2013 consoles are officially getting UHD Blu-Ray support. Then you're just presenting your series of assumptions based on loose evidence about energy efficiency. I know you really believe your theories, but please consider properly stating them as such?
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Vinc, I am presenting a Paper from an Official representative of Microsoft and Sony to a Official EU Government energy board. In the first page it describes the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Game Consoles.

This is official confirmation echoing the first paper from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo that UHD game consoles shipped in 2013 as the Power Savings are calculated from that date.

This confirms a Microsoft VP stating in 2013 that the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray and Sony representatives saying the PS4 can support 4K media and the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port.

This is no longer supported speculation.
 
W

Waldo Lydecker

Member
Jeff Rigby never fails to amaze me. But who is the person behind the name? Is it Mark Cerny? Who knows? Or is it his real name? Intrigued by that possibility I deciced to search the internet for a photo of Jeff Rigby.

Unfortunately I only found this one, Jeff is that you?

Rigby-feature2.jpg
 
V

Vinc

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Vinc, I am presenting a Paper from an Official representative of Microsoft and Sony to a Official EU Government energy board. In the first page it describes the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Game Consoles.

This is official confirmation echoing the first paper from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo that UHD game consoles shipped in 2013 as the Power Savings are calculated from that date.

This confirms a Microsoft VP stating in 2013 that the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray and Sony representatives saying the PS4 can support 4K media and the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port.

This is no longer supported speculation.
Click to expand...

The consoles were being described officially as 4K-capable prior to their launch. It hasn't panned out yet, but even that's not the issue. The issue is that you present this information as factual, when there is no confirmation that they will ever be 4K-enabled, much less 4K Blu-Ray playback enabled. Your definitive statements are misleading, and it's still absolutely speculation until the feature is actually officially confirmed to come. I don't understand how you don't see this point.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Adam Tyner said:
No, he didn't. In fact, he believed that what everyone was calling the PS4K was a firmware update for the launch PS4s, not a new SKU.
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In 2013 I agreed with a Semiaccurate article that Sony would have iterations and that Sony moving the ARM IP out of the APU to Southbridge made this easier. Recently I stated that while a PS4.5 is possible I thought they might be confusing a PS4K as a firmware upgraded PS4 to support UHD. It is HIGHLY likely that the launch PS4 is getting a firmware update to support UHD Blu-ray and will be called a PS4K.

Adam, no comment on the Letter to the EU power board from a Sony and Microsoft representative with chart stating the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD. Does this make Ito's comments a lie (NDA) or Ignorance?
 
A

Adam Tyner

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Adam, no comment on the Letter to the EU power board from a Sony and Microsoft representative with chart stating the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD. Does this make Ito's comments a lie (NDA) or Ignorance?
Click to expand...
They don't necessarily conflict since Ito was speaking about Ultra HD Blu-ray in particular. That paper, which makes no mention of UHD BD, also predates the format's launch by nearly a year, for whatever that's worth. I'm also not sure if it should be taken as "this is what we think may happen" as opposed to definitive plans.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Vinc said:
The consoles were being described officially as 4K-capable prior to their launch. It hasn't panned out yet, but even that's not the issue. The issue is that you present this information as factual, when there is no confirmation that they will ever be 4K-enabled, much less 4K Blu-Ray playback enabled. Your definitive statements are misleading, and it's still absolutely speculation until the feature is actually officially confirmed to come. I don't understand how you don't see this point.
Click to expand...
Okay, in the past in this thread the arguments were the PS4 has no HDMI 2 port and no Hardware HEVC. Can we now lay that to rest?

Does everyone understand that there is no such thing as a UHD drive and that Standard blu-ray drives will be firmware updated to support UHD Blu-ray?

Then it's a matter of UHD software and Licence right?
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Live Free or Die said:
Jeff is awesome. He predicted a lot of stuff so far. Keep up the great work sir!
Click to expand...

There's a difference between making a lot of predictions and having predicted a lot of stuff. I'm fairly certain the only piece of speculation that actually has come to fruition is Sony killing off the original PS3 browser in favour of a WebKit-based solution, which was about four years ago now.
 
V

Vinc

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Okay, in the past in this thread the arguments were the PS4 has no HDMI 2 port and no Hardware HEVC. Can we now lay that to rest?

Does everyone understand that there is no such thing as a UHD drive and that Standard blu-ray drives will be firmware updated to support UHD Blu-ray?

Then it's a matter of UHD software and Licence right?
Click to expand...

Why would we argue about it if it's confirmed?

I'm not here to argue about anything. Just stop presenting your speculation as official information. That's not what it is.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
spectator said:
It's a matter of whether they do it. And, right now, we have no evidence to suggest that they will and a lot of circumstantial evidence that they won't.
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What, please support that with an argument or cites.

The reason UHD BLu-ray is not being spelled out and they are using the term UHD Capable is that the UHD delivery scheme is the same for all UHD media using the same open source standards HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the Player, HEVC profile 10 for the codec and HTML5 for the UI The DRM differences for UHD are primarily hardware changes requiring AACS, BD+, Playready and HDCP to be running in a TEE.

If the PS4 and XB1 can support any UHD media they can support them all.... thus UHD Capable. Don't you guys understand this.............. Where Sony and Microsoft plan to have a synergy with Cell phones is UHD ANTENNA TV not blu-ray but blu-ray comes first..
 
J

jett

D-Member
jeff_rigby said:
Okay, in the past in this thread the arguments were the PS4 has no HDMI 2 port and no Hardware HEVC. Can we now lay that to rest?

Does everyone understand that there is no such thing as a UHD drive and that Standard blu-ray drives will be firmware updated to support UHD Blu-ray?

Then it's a matter of UHD software and Licence right?
Click to expand...

1322.gif


Companies like Samsung aren't going to update their BD players for free (not that they even could) when they want sell you a new one.

I honestly can't believe the PS4K news hasn't dissuaded you from the notion that the PS4 will be magically upgraded to offer UHD and 4K playback.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
jeff_rigby said:
What, please support that with an argument or cites.

The reason UHD BLu-ray is not being spelled out and they are using the term UHD Capable is that the UHD delivery scheme is the same for all UHD media using the same open source standards HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the Player, HEVC profile 10 for the codec and HTML5 for the UI The DRM differences for UHD are primarily hardware changes requiring AACS, BD+, Playready and HDCP to be running in a TEE.

If the PS4 and XB1 can support any UHD media they can support them all.... thus UHD Capable. Don't you guys understand this.............. Where Sony and Microsoft plan to have a synergy with Cell phones is UHD ANTENNA TV not blu-ray but blu-ray comes first..
Click to expand...

No, you don't seem to understand what UHD capable means.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
jett said:
Companies like Samsung aren't going to update their BD players for free (not that they even could) when they want sell you a new one.

How has jeff not gotten a tag yet, anyway.
Click to expand...
Jett, I was talking about the drive not a blu-ray player. And yes a company that makes blu-ray drives has no incentive to pay for a licence and firmware update their existing blu-ray drives so customers who own those drives can move them to a newer PC or put in a Polaris dGPU and purchase a UHD PC player to support UHD BLu-ray. Sony and Microsoft on the other hand want their consoles in every ones living room making money with services and Media sales.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
jeff_rigby said:
You mean I'm not going to be allowed to point out how you guys were wrong.
Click to expand...

No, I meant exactly what I said -- that if a tag were ever a possibility for you, it wasn't implemented because there's a history of tags relating to certain behaviours being considered by their recipients to be a green light to engage in said behaviour all the more often. There's nothing to infer.

ReBurn said:
Heh you sure were mad.
Click to expand...

Oh, it was just a small piece of advice that he should have heeded. His fervent desire to expand his tag (it listed the people he had "gotchad") was no skin off my nose.
 
S

spectator

Member
jeff_rigby said:
What, please support that with an argument or cites.
Click to expand...

On my first point, I can't cite a lack of evidence (as you should be able to understand). Regarding the second, the inaction of both console makers (to either enact firmware updates or indicate an intention or schedule to do so) coupled with the now-rampant rumors of new console iterations in the works is plenty of evidence to fill the vaccuum, I think.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
JaseC said:
No, I meant exactly what I said -- that if a tag were ever a possibility for you, it wasn't implemented because there's a history of tags relating to certain behaviours being considered by their recipients to be a green light to engage in said behaviour all the more often. There's nothing to infer.
Click to expand...
Woosh...most of the posts in this page I consider a waste as no information is being shared. It's really over and over it's not real until it's real, a Car is not a Car until you fill the tank and take it for a drive. It's just a steel box that looks like a Car.

When Sony announces the PS4 is a blu-ray player please remember Ito said the PS4 can't play UHD movies...remember that and don't believe it, caution everyone you know that the PS4 can't do so, none of the three versions of the PS4 can play UHD blu-ray (2013, 2015 and Neo) as they all have the same standard Blu-ray drive that cant read three layers according to Ito.
 
K

kpeezy

Banned
It's pretty obvious jeff_rigby is correct about the console's UHD capabilities, but will they ever implement the support for it on OG consoles? Hard to believe they would without some kind of fee (fee for firmware update sounds ridiculous but maybe it's reasonable in this instance). I'm sure they incurred costs updating the PS4K to support these features since they weren't an option when the console was initially designed.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
spectator said:
On my first point, I can't cite a lack of evidence (as you should be able to understand). Regarding the second, the inaction of both console makers (to either enact firmware updates or indicate an intention or schedule to do so) coupled with the now-rampant rumors of new console iterations in the works is plenty of evidence to fill the vaccuum, I think.
Click to expand...
Oh, you still think the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray while the second (2015) might and for sure Neo can as RUMORS have it supporting 4K.

The second paper does not mention a HD and UHD PS4 only a UHD PS4 and as Adam pointed out it's from April 2015 and Sony representatives were not talking to EU representatives about a console releasing in 2017. Tier 3 @ 2017 and 70 watts not 90 could be the NEO which again supports TWO version of the PS4 that support UHD..

kpeezy said:
It's pretty obvious jeff_rigby is correct about the console's UHD capabilities, but will they ever implement the support for it on OG consoles? Hard to believe they would without some kind of fee (fee for firmware update sounds ridiculous but maybe it's reasonable in this instance). I'm sure they incurred costs updating the PS4K to support these features since they weren't an option when the console was initially designed.
Click to expand...
Implementing a TEE and the Xtensa processors for HEVC which can also be used for Vision processing are needed for ALL UHD media and VR. The software to support UHD blu-ray plus the $60,000 licence for 5 years over 35 million consoles is about 5 cents per PS4. The advertising budget per PS4 is higher and I pay for Plus and will pay for E-guides when they support Antenna TV and likely for slect channels to supplement Antenna TV from Playstation Vue. I will also buy more Blu-ray than DVD because of the BLu-ray digital bridge.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Please explain then.
Click to expand...

UHD capable in that document simply refers to the ability to output 4K res. That's it. It does not mean it means a certain criteria or standards just like a lot of the 4K TVs out there, especially the early ones, don't meet the standards that were defined only more recently. UHD simply means 4K resolution just like HD tends to mean 720p/1080i/1080p. That naming doesn't imply HDMI, HDCP, etc. It simply refers to the resolution. You're reading in to this to make it fit your assumed conclusion rather than using the evidence to come to the right conclusion. You really should learn about Occam's razor because your analysis of these things is far from understanding that principle. If you want to try and connect it to UHD Blu-ray, how could that paper even know it's capable when the standards were not defined until after the paper was written?
 
K

kpeezy

Banned
Marty Chinn said:
UHD capable in that document simply refers to the ability to output 4K res. That's it. It does not mean it means a certain criteria or standards just like a lot of the 4K TVs out there, especially the early ones, don't meet the standards that were defined only more recently. UHD simply means 4K resolution just like HD tends to mean 720p/1080i/1080p. That naming doesn't imply HDMI, HDCP, etc. It simply refers to the resolution. You're reading in to this to make it fit your assumed conclusion rather than using the evidence to come to the right conclusion. You really should learn about Occam's razor because your analysis of these things is far from understanding that principle.
Click to expand...

So condescending for someone who either hasn't read the thread or can't comprehend the material in said thread.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Marty Chinn said:
UHD capable in that document simply refers to the ability to output 4K res. That's it. It does not mean it means a certain criteria or standards just like a lot of the 4K TVs out there, especially the early ones, don't meet the standards that were defined only more recently. UHD simply means 4K resolution just like HD tends to mean 720p/1080i/1080p. That naming doesn't imply HDMI, HDCP, etc. It simply refers to the resolution. You're reading in to this to make it fit your assumed conclusion rather than using the evidence to come to the right conclusion. You really should learn about Occam's razor because your analysis of these things is far from understanding that principle. If you want to try and connect it to UHD Blu-ray, how could that paper even know it's capable when the standards were not defined until after the paper was written?
Click to expand...
The PS3 can output 4K but it's considered a HD Console. You might ask yourself what makes the PS4 a UHD Console.

UHD does require standards like HDCP2 in the TEE, AACS in the TEE...a TEE for pitys sake, HEVC profile 10, HTML5, HTML5 <video> EME MSE etc.

Vidipath which Sony and Microsoft are going to support also has requirements like HTML5 for the UI, HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the Video player and Playready (requires a TEE) + WMDRM (requires a TEE or as Playready 2.5 a Hypervisor protected memory and process) which is in the PS4 intellectual notice. 1080P and 4K media streaming requires Playready ND (requires a TEE) and that is mentioned in the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals (All media conversion is required to be done in the TEE) and by Microsoft in Game Consoles to support streaming and Live play from a DVR.

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB. The Downloadable Security scheme also requires a TEE.

Top path is RVU which the PS3 already supports.
Direct Attach End to End (center path) which is all IPTV direct from a cable modem . The future but Cable can't currently support more than a small percentage of their customers going all IPTV.
Sony is definitely supporting Vidipath, page 12 bottom path (Traditional Cable TV with the DLNA CVP2 FCC mandate where a DVR with tuners converts a RF channel to IPTV streams ) This is why Sony was porting Playready embedded to the PS3

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.
 
S

spectator

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Oh, you still think the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray while the second (2015) might and for sure Neo can as RUMORS have it supporting 4K.
Click to expand...

I don't think the PS4 (launch or otherwise) can't support UHD Blu-ray; I know it can't. Perhaps it could be made to, but it doesn't now and it doesn't appear it will be.

As for the "PS4K", I wouldn't claim to know- it hasn't even been announced yet.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The PS3 can output 4K but it's considered a HD Console. You might ask yourself what makes the PS4 a UHD Console.

UHD does require standards like HDCP2 in the TEE, AACS in the TEE...a TEE for pitys sake, HEVC profile 10, HTML5, HTML5 <video> EME MSE etc.

Vidipath which Sony and Microsoft are going to support also has requirements like HTML5 for the UI, HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the Video player and Playready (requires a TEE) + WMDRM (requires a TEE or as Playready 2.5 a Hypervisor protected memory and process) which is in the PS4 intellectual notice. 1080P and 4K media streaming requires Playready ND (requires a TEE) and that is mentioned in the UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals (All media conversion is required to be done in the TEE) and by Microsoft in Game Consoles to support streaming and Live play from a DVR.

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB. The Downloadable Security scheme also requires a TEE.

Top path is RVU which the PS3 already supports.
Direct Attach End to End (center path) which is all IPTV direct from a cable modem . The future but Cable can't currently support more than a small percentage of their customers going all IPTV.
Sony is definitely supporting Vidipath, page 12 bottom path (Traditional Cable TV with the DLNA CVP2 FCC mandate where a DVR with tuners converts a RF channel to IPTV streams ) This is why Sony was porting Playready embedded to the PS3

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.
Click to expand...

You're doing it again. You're grasping to fit things together. You haven't factored in the time frame of when that document was written. By the time it was written, the PS3 was a pretty established piece of hardware and we were getting HD resolutions out of it with most games being at around 720p. Everyone accepts it as a console that outputs HD resolution that ranges from 720p to 1080p. Nobody is going to sit there and look at a PS3 in real world conditions and label it as a 4K device. Not to mention none of the official documentation or the development documentation even eludes to 4K support on the PS3. Seriously use that document reading ability and go look up and study Occam's razor. You have the problem of trying to over complicate everything even in your replies to simple questions or statements. You did it before when discussing OTA signals. You did it again now in this very post.
 
O

onQ123

Member
For the doubters Jeff was clearly right about the consoles replacing cable boxes because PlayStation Vue & also Comcast , Time Warner & Carter all are moving to apps that will replace the cable box.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014


Comcast (NASDAQ: CMCSA) is launching an app on the streaming TV gadget Roku that takes the place of a cable box. Competitors Time Warner Cable and Charter, which will be merging, both already have Roku apps that replace cable boxes.
Click to expand...

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...st-q12016-set-top-box-yes-network-snider.html
 
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