migration targets only exist to convince the racists to vote Tory instead of UKIP
also I see one of the policies to leak so far is restricting free school meals. maybe they can send the kids off to the local food bank.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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migration targets only exist to convince the racists to vote Tory instead of UKIP
also I see one of the policies to leak so far is restricting free school meals. maybe they can send the kids off to the local food bank.
Huw_Dawson
Member
OK, so there's the entire thing in the English language about "you" not always being clear - I meant "generic person", not "you the person with the penguin avatar". In fairness when I'm writing a lot quickly I sometimes actually miss when that's not clear and needs a re-write, so my apologies for mangling the English language.
However you, actually you, posted your comment about a conspiracy theory *after* my post. So my hasty assumption was you were joking about either my "secret anti-gay" note up the page or the witch-hunt comment that was recently posted. Evidently I'm mistaken, so once again my apologies. It's hard to tell the difference between a quick joke and a drive-by troll.
I do think that the Channel 4 reporter who dropped this topic on Farron just after he started his electioneering scored an absolute blinder if they fancied affecting the referendum in favour of the Tories.
boxoctosis
Member
I get all that. But I can't get past his 'kooky' and very illiberal views. It's the bloody liberal party FFS. This talk of we're all sinners, in 2017, fuck off. Wouldn't trust the man to run a bath.
Edit
For the avoidance of doubt, i won't vote for any party with an overtly religious leader. We need full separation between church and state.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Should every Labour politician that's openly religious be hauled onto television and grilled in the way Farron has been, with their own parliamentary record on these matters completely disregarded? That leaves you with the Greens, maybe?
boxoctosis
Member
See my edit. Yes basically. I have no truck with mixing religion and politics.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
But he's not. The only reason his religion gets brought up is because people keep bringing it up.
He's a near perfect example of separation of church and state, in that he keeps his own religious views separate from his views on politics/governance. He's actually an ideal Liberal in that sense.
I have my misgivings about him and the catholic wing of the Lib Dems too but I'd rather this kooky religious guy who passionately believes that the gay blood ban should be repealed (and other pro LGBT views and actions that aren't vote winners) than an atheist who thinks gay marriage is the be all end all of LGBT rights.
The Tories collapse to a 13 point lead.
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 45% (-4)
LAB: 32% (+1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 6% (+3)
(via @YouGov / 16 - 17 May)
Looks like the days of people thinking the Tories are better than Labour in every policy area may be over:
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 45% (-4)
LAB: 32% (+1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 6% (+3)
(via @YouGov / 16 - 17 May)
Looks like the days of people thinking the Tories are better than Labour in every policy area may be over:
boxoctosis
Member
Eh?
https://www.channel4.com/news/tim-farron-asked-three-times-if-gay-sex-is-a-sin
He's not separating church and state in any way. I can't trust a man who won't answer this easy question.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I can see this argument FWIW. I think that can be puritanical, though. Is all faith a problem in politics, or is it just Christianity, as it's less of a minority belief in Britain?
I definitely think it would be wrong to hound a muslim Lib Dem candidate on their private religion, for example. That's clear cut.
Imposing faith on politics is saying "this word 'marriage' means a divine consecration of union by God AND CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM THE LEGAL DEFINITION ARGLEBLARGLERARR". That was what Simon Hughes did and I have major trouble with.
Having faith would be what I think Farron does - he occasionally says something religious, but by-and-large he tries to keep off the topic.
A liberal believes that a rational assessment of if something actually causes harm is all that is required to decide if something should be permitted by society or not. I've yet to see good evidence of Farron not doing that, and that's why it gets my goat when people say he's not being liberal.
Question - is Tim Farron's view on sodomy actually a matter of state? I don't think anyone is arguing that it is - some people are having a go saying he's secretly a homophobe and is lying, but that still isn't a matter of state.
"Is it a sin" is a very different question - especially because Lib Dems tend to be fans of political philosophy - is a very different question from "is it wrong in the real world". The latter is a matter of state, the former is a matter of faith. Sin is a very popular topic in the Bible.
boxoctosis
Member
I think being opposed to homosexuality is pretty harmful when leader of the main "liberal" party in the UK.
Inevitable given they're the last to unveil their manifesto. They'll get more coverage again tomorrow regarding social care policy. Some grumpy rich pensioners moaning that they might lose their winter fuel allowance. But the policy ringfencing £100k of assets and no longer typically needing to sell a home to pay for care will certainly go down well with older voters, and with their sons and daughters awaiting their inheritance! Also UKIP voters will love the new right wing migration policies.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Oh God it's happening again
I'm stuck in a loop
Look - I'll let the acting chair of LGBT+ Lib Dems explain it better than I ever could.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jennie-rigg/tim-farron-lgbt-record_b_16095906.html
Maybe that doesn't change your mind, but I'm actually tapped out talking about this - there's no more ways I can say "he's not a homophobe".
The crux of my argument is that you can be a Christian and be supportive of LGBT rights. It's not always fair to try and make a Christian confront how they are contradicting their religion live on national television. It's too close to the nasty smear politics of the USA, and above all I don't think it's true.
Theonik
Member
Jezza-sama!The Tories collapse to a 13 point lead.
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 45% (-4)
LAB: 32% (+1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 6% (+3)
(via @YouGov / 16 - 17 May)
Looks like the days of people thinking the Tories are better than Labour in every policy area may be over:
boxoctosis
Member
I respect his beliefs but I won't vote for anyone or any party led by someone with overt religious beliefs. He's welcome to his beliefs, but I think they​ have no place in UK politics in 2017.
Huw_Dawson
Member
My suspicion is that the Tories actually having a boring and reasonably invisible campaign is beginning to hurt them. The problem is that I'm not convinced this is people flocking back to Labour - this is people resettling where they voted last or going to "Don't Know".
We'll see the state of play once polls of opinions at the weekend come out, as that gives time for all the manifestos to sink in and the possibly-important ITV leader's debate to happen.
If I don't see the LDs getting some good swings over the weekend, I'll be a lot less chipper about our prospects. For now I'm still optimistic - it all comes down to how the manifestoes stack up and if folks care about the ITV leader's debate.
(My hunch right now on the latter? Probably not.)
You're welcome to vote as you please, but the only reason we're talking about Farron's religious beliefs is because he was directly asked via a gotcha on Channel 4 just after the election was announced. Like I said earlier - an amazing bit of deliberate sabotage if that's what it was intended to be. My hunch was it was just a journalist looking for a controversy, though.
We'll see the state of play once polls of opinions at the weekend come out, as that gives time for all the manifestos to sink in and the possibly-important ITV leader's debate to happen.
If I don't see the LDs getting some good swings over the weekend, I'll be a lot less chipper about our prospects. For now I'm still optimistic - it all comes down to how the manifestoes stack up and if folks care about the ITV leader's debate.
(My hunch right now on the latter? Probably not.)
You're welcome to vote as you please, but the only reason we're talking about Farron's religious beliefs is because he was directly asked via a gotcha on Channel 4 just after the election was announced. Like I said earlier - an amazing bit of deliberate sabotage if that's what it was intended to be. My hunch was it was just a journalist looking for a controversy, though.
An excerpt from the speech that'll launch the Conservative manifesto tomorrow:
Kinda ironic considering the porkies Cameron told over the Government's budget when comparing it to a household or paying off a credit card. From the same woman who brought you "Brexit means Brexit" and "red, white, and blue Brexit" too.
good news, May found a way to provide social care for the elderly
https://www.theguardian.com/society...for-social-care?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook
https://www.theguardian.com/society...for-social-care?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook
Audioboxer
Member
Eh? What is Corbyn doing not attending? He was making a ruckus about May not doing it.
The Mail have gone with "YOU WON'T HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOME" as their headline to try and get out ahead of the incoming shit storm when people read the details and see that under the Tory policy they're actually just deferring the cost until you die and you'll probably end up selling your home.
the comment section isn't happy if you want a laugh. Looks like they might have finally pissed off their core support.
It's a shocking policy but no more than expected from them to be honest.
the comment section isn't happy if you want a laugh. Looks like they might have finally pissed off their core support.
It's a shocking policy but no more than expected from them to be honest.
PJV3
Member
The value of a house should get eaten through pretty quickly if you need more than a couple of hours care a day.
QuicheFontaine
Member
The Tories collapse to a 13 point lead.
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 45% (-4)
LAB: 32% (+1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 6% (+3)
(via @YouGov / 16 - 17 May)
Looks like the days of people thinking the Tories are better than Labour in every policy area may be over:
I've got to say, over the course of this campaign they've only done things that make me lose interest in them tbh.
I agree with this, but hadn't especially had to apply this to Farron in my mind because I was never going to be voting Lib Dem anyway.
Huw_Dawson
Member
"I am not attending if May does not."
Someone at Labour probably made the calculation that the only person who benefits from the TV debate if Corbyn showed up is Farron, much like 2010. It's cowardly, but starving the opposition of oxygen is good campaign policy if nothing else.
Tory policies out so far are grim. Has May really thought her strategy through? Olney called her a "lunch snatcher" ffs.
I have no stake in this, but if someone didn't let his religious beliefs overrule his policies and votes on the actual matters that's actually the opposite of mixing religion and state. I would say not voting someone because of his religious beliefs and despite his policies is actually more mixing religion and state that the person in question.
CyclopsRock
Member
But that only worked because "snatcher" rhymed with "Thatcher"! Could she really not come up with one that rhymed with "May"?!
May, May, the kids showed dismay, as she arrived and their lunch stole away. May, May, whatever she say, she takes their lunch like she's one of the Krays. May, May, she made her horse bray, as her dogs ripped the fox in an act of affray.
Ravensmash
Member
The shifting polls are reassuring.
So, realistically what could Farron do to convince people he wasn't a homophobe?
So, realistically what could Farron do to convince people he wasn't a homophobe?
CyclopsRock
Member
Well someone finally releasing that Farron-Opik sex tape would do it.
Huw_Dawson
Member
This is the darkest timeline.
It's only a death tax when Labour propose it. It's 'you don't have to sell your home' when the Tories propose it.
CyclopsRock
Member
They should just own it. Be all "yeah, they're fucking dead, they don't need the money do they? You haven't earned it, and if we agree that taxing things does, to some degree, turn people off doing it, then we're also saving lives. Vote Labour."
Daffy Duck
Member
Can't wait to read the fully costed bullet proof Tory manifesto.
If you agree with Theresa May, you'll never get a lay.
I've done it. I've cost the Tories the election.
CyclopsRock
Member
Not true, though! "If you agree with May you'll get sucked off by a cute posho redhead in a stable before she demands you help her give the middle finger to her dad for sending her to boarding school by doing her in the arse on top of the dining room bureau. Bae."
Huw_Dawson
Member
This social care reform seems to be going down like a diarrhoea-filled balloon.
Why are the Tories pledging anything? They don't need to do anything to win this election.
Why are the Tories pledging anything? They don't need to do anything to win this election.
Theonik
Member
That's oddly specific.
BRB need to google something.
Because the lead is so great, they can put a list of their more dubious policies in the manifesto then whenever they get any push back when they come up in the Commons, it'll be "manifesto commitment", "the will of the people", "people knew what they were voting for"
It might cost them 20 seats or so, but it'll make their lives easier (and everyone elses worse) in the long run.
I was thinking this, but the part I don't understand is why they even want to implement such unpopular policies? I can't see any personal gain in it, do they just believe that these are good policies?
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's damn good news for us in our Tory-facing seats. Means testing winter fuel allowance is fair and we agree. Selling your loved one's future inheritance to pay for your own social care is cruel.
The grey vote will not be pleased.
The grey vote will not be pleased.
Indeed. I guess they feel that Brexit will overshadow this among the elderly though.
Daffy Duck
Member
Maybe they don't want to win outright and want a coalition of concrete to build the strong and stable future on.
Maybe everyone is trying to throw this election so that the other side gets the blame when Brexit turns to shit.
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