She's a terrible, anti-evidence authoritarian. She constantly pushes for legislative changes to give her and Parliament more executive power. She passed the Snoopers Charter and Digital Economy Bill. Her drugs policy is catastrophic. Her schools policies are terrible. She is in favour of badly executed privatisation of key NHS functions.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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She's a terrible, anti-evidence authoritarian. She constantly pushes for legislative changes to give her and Parliament more executive power. She passed the Snoopers Charter and Digital Economy Bill. Her drugs policy is catastrophic. Her schools policies are terrible. She is in favour of badly executed privatisation of key NHS functions.
Yeah but then I look at the influence UKIP has had without any real power, and I wonder if someone on the left can do the same.
Actually I was wondering what a similar "far left, single issue" party could focus on. My first thought was voting reform but it doesn't really have the same pull as "kick out those dirty foreigners".
Huw_Dawson
Member
.... And guess who would reform voting if it won power?!
Good god, my party is a vehicle for socialism! 😱
(Mostly joking)
Actually Labour would do very well at 15%, far better than us - they have concentrated support. Go crunch a voter split of Con 40, Lab 15, LD 30 in a swingometer.
PJV3
Member
I'm agreeing but i think it's just political reality, we get tied up in words like strength or punishment when it's just how it has to be.
The EU will crumble if we get anything that the members paying the membership fee get, a nice transitional deal is the most im hoping for because it suits both sides.
Would you though? Lib Dems want voting reform now but they'd benefit more than anyone (I think? certainly more than the main 2 parties). As soon as someone is in power they no longer need voting reform for their own benefit... so I'm sceptical on this point.
PJV3
Member
Labour/social democrat style or Socialist support?
I've never dug down into how they are spread around the country to be honest.
Huw_Dawson
Member
We've been campaigning for a rewriting of the UK's electoral laws since David Lloyd George, and so far our major successes have been the devolved parliaments (Blair took on the policy in his bid to curry favour but it was originally LD) and, alas, the AV referendum.
But it is a massive stereotype of LDs that we get VERY PASSIONATE about electoral reform. Much ale has been consumed on the topic.
It would happen, 100%, if the LDs won office.
Labour's voters are not really into the socialist/democrat split. I think it is mostly a class thing, which is why their support is somewhat crumbling. But their inner city heartlands are as they are and they do have massive support amongst remaining industrial workers. My hunch is that the natural seat of Labour is a socialist party.
But it is a massive stereotype of LDs that we get VERY PASSIONATE about electoral reform. Much ale has been consumed on the topic.
It would happen, 100%, if the LDs won office.
Labour's voters are not really into the socialist/democrat split. I think it is mostly a class thing, which is why their support is somewhat crumbling. But their inner city heartlands are as they are and they do have massive support amongst remaining industrial workers. My hunch is that the natural seat of Labour is a socialist party.
CharmingCharlie
Member
You guys do realise that the EU has not guaranteed the rights of the 1.2 million Britons living in Europe, right ? In fact the EU is the one refusing to entertain any discussion with regards to residency rights for their citizens and ours until the "bill" is settled.
I absolutely despise the Tories and May looks like a grey haired version of Servalan from Blake 7. However in the case of residency rights the Tories are playing things right. Anyone going "we should guarantee EU citizens their residency rights" are basically throwing Britons living in the EU under a bus.
As for Labours lil fairy tale of how they would handle Brexit. No one is going to take them seriously, they can barely hold their own party together never mind negotiate a fair deal with an organisation comprised of 27 hostile nations.
Huw_Dawson
Member
We cannot do anything about the EU guaranteeing rights for UK citizens, but we can immediately do something right for EU citizens in the UK.
The issue is also that Labour did not back EU right to remain in parliament, but want to go to the country and say they'd do it on 9th June. It's wonky policy.
The issue is also that Labour did not back EU right to remain in parliament, but want to go to the country and say they'd do it on 9th June. It's wonky policy.
That's not true. Infact the EU wants to settle citizen rights, ireland and financial payments first before any trade talk
CharmingCharlie
Member
We can do something for UK citizens and that is not chuck them under a bus by going "yeah sure all EU citizens are going to be protected, now pretty please do the same for our citizens, pleaseeeeeeee". You know call me old fashioned but I kinda like the idea that the UK government is there for UK citizens and will put UK citizens needs first.
Last I heard when ever May has broached the subject of citizens rights she has been slapped down with "no negotiation till the divorce is finalised". Now I would happily like to be proven wrong, could you show me some evidence that the EU is happy to get the issue out of the way.
PJV3
Member
Are you thinking of no trade deal until the divorce is sorted, citizens are part of the divorce. Or no negotiations until you start negotiating, article 50 activation ?
I can't remember the EU saying something more hardcore than that.
That bill would've become insanely complex if they started putting clauses in like that though. I mean you can't just say "we guarantee the rights of EU citizens" because what does that even mean after brexit? Does that mean freedom of movement? Also the EU have said nothing about UK citizens as far as I aware.
Huw_Dawson
Member
The draft EU parliament position on Brexit negotiation was that right-to-remain was top of the agenda, alongside the NI border and the issue of financial commitments.
They get sorted FIRST.
This was known months ago. It actually surprises me how little is known about the situation.
They get sorted FIRST.
This was known months ago. It actually surprises me how little is known about the situation.
Halph n Halph
Member
I was under the impression that the UK wanted it sorted months ago but EU refused to discuss anything at all until article 50 was triggered.
Huw_Dawson
Member
The power of disinformation.
May wanted to discuss it with Merkel which declined because it was illegal to negotiate with her (as the EU is the right spokesperson) and the EU had a clear line that there were no negotiations until art. 50 trigger.
CharmingCharlie
Member
May wanted the residency issue put to bed but was blocked by Merkal. It really is amazing how everyone is so keen to paint the Tories as the big baddies that are holding EU citizens hostage when Merkal and Co are doing the exact same thing with UK citizens.
Hey guess what May wanted to get the residency issue sorted months ago but the EU flatly refused too. So here we are you have an EU draft document saying they want to "negotiate" residency rights for their citizens (you know negotiate not guarantee). But you guys don't want the UK to negotiate you just want us to go "oh no probs all EU citizens get residency rights, now please do the same for our citizens". I mean seriously can you guys not see how absurd that is.
PJV3
Member
Why would they?
The Brits got into a pickle about it because of Cameron having nothing prepared for a leave vote.
It's not about good or bad, it's about acting like a normal government. We should have been ready for the decision, Cameron clearly said we did no work on it whatsoever and the population chose to do it anyway.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Which is reasonable.
Indeed. I expect lots of those 'facts' over the next two years.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Don't presume you speak for us UK citizens living in the rEU. May is handling things appallingly.
This whole debacle is the fault of the people who called for, voted for, and voted leave in the referendum.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I only remember one side threatening the right to stay and talking about using people as bargaining chips.
A Tory attack ad on Corbyn, notable because it is probably a sign of things to come.
1. No mention of Labour
2. No exaggerating, just videos of Corbyn speaking in his own words.
3. Present him as a threat to the nation / morally unacceptable. Less divisive than going after him for being a "loony lefty" etc.
1. No mention of Labour
2. No exaggerating, just videos of Corbyn speaking in his own words.
3. Present him as a threat to the nation / morally unacceptable. Less divisive than going after him for being a "loony lefty" etc.
Quoted for truth.
Keir Starmer: Labour will take UK out of the Single Market and scrap the free movement of people
Not entirely sure on source, in the sense that no other papers are reporting this... But this article only went live 15 minutes ago, so...
I cannot in good conscience vote Labour, at this point. An awful party, in my opinion. Here's hoping the Lib Dems win big. (Didn't think I'd say that after Clegg screwed us all in the Coalition).
Not entirely sure on source, in the sense that no other papers are reporting this... But this article only went live 15 minutes ago, so...
I cannot in good conscience vote Labour, at this point. An awful party, in my opinion. Here's hoping the Lib Dems win big. (Didn't think I'd say that after Clegg screwed us all in the Coalition).
CharmingCharlie
Member
That's funny I remember both sides threatening each other, hell one side was even threatening to wreck the other sides economy. The UK government has consistently refused to guarantee EU citizens residency rights just like the EU has consistently refused to guarantee residency rights for UK citizens.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Lib Dems have been saying that Labour was a party of hard Brexit for months. Shocking news: Labour are a hard Brexit party.
Jezbollah
Member
I suspect the harder core of the Party membership will be against that policy. Can also see a lot of pro EU labour voters, especially in the cities going to the Lib Dems because of this too.
My MP has decided to stand down. Not as if we'll see much change with a 24k Tory majority...
That LD manifesto is going to be one to read
My MP has decided to stand down. Not as if we'll see much change with a 24k Tory majority...
That LD manifesto is going to be one to read
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, Starmer is just stating the obvious. The biggest sticking point for the British people is freedom of movement, the biggest sticking point for the EU is no single market without freedom of movement, therefore there will be no single market membership.
Any party that wants to win a majority would say this. Even a party that just has to defend a meaningful amount of Leave-voting seats (a.k.a. most seats) would say this.
Any party that wants to win a majority would say this. Even a party that just has to defend a meaningful amount of Leave-voting seats (a.k.a. most seats) would say this.
Have they? Please provide a source on your claims
The Trussell Trust have a new report out. Foodback usage continues to rise and remains at a record high.
UK foodbank use continues to rise according to new data from anti-poverty charity, The Trussell Trust. Between 1st April 2016 and 31st March 2017, The Trussell Trusts Foodbank Network provided 1,182,954 three day emergency food supplies to people in crisis compared to 1,109,309 in 2015-16. Of this number, 436,938 went to children.
[...]
Foodbanks in areas of full Universal Credit rollout to single people, couples and families, have seen a 16.85% average increase in referrals for emergency food, more than double the national average of 6.64%.
The effect of a 6+ week waiting period for a first Universal Credit payment can be serious, leading to foodbank referrals, debt, mental health issues, rent arrears and eviction. These effects can last even after people receive their Universal Credit payments, as bills and debts pile up.
People in insecure or seasonal work are particularly affected, suggesting the work incentives in Universal Credit are not yet helping everyone.
this hard brexit soft brexit stuff is such bs anyway. The EU has already said we can't be half in and cherry pick the rules so the only option is in or out and we're out.
It's funny cause all the sources I can find are about UK not talking about EU citizens' rights...
Frankfurter
Member
Soft Brexit definitely is a possibility, but that would include freedom of movement, so it won't happen.
QuicheFontaine
Member
All that's needed to sink Labour's chances tbh. This is going to be an extremely low effort campaign from the Tories. I'm sure there have been meetings where the phrase "the less we do, the better" has been uttered.
Well, so much for voting Labour to try and oust the tories from my local seat. Here's hoping other people vote Lib Dems too.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Damn they need to rename them from benefits.
Essential Relief.
Essential Relief.
Wait till they real out the IRA quotes
Will anyone care about them? When Martin McGuinness died a few weeks back, his obits soft-peddled the IRA links. I think there's more damage can be done by referencing the anti-Semitism controversies.
New YouGov report: "The demographics dividing Britain: class is no longer a good predictor of voting behaviour, age is the new dividing line in British politics"
Some images but the whole article is worth reading:
There are certainly some constituencies where it will matter. I can tell you my hometown (Warrington) won't vote for an IRA supporter.
Some images but the whole article is worth reading:
There are certainly some constituencies where it will matter. I can tell you my hometown (Warrington) won't vote for an IRA supporter.
chromatic9
Member
Goes against Mr Corbyn but perhaps the reality of the situation has dawned on them like what I was saying before. We'll see what the full Labour plan is soon they say.
The EU and UK nationals thing should be put forward as we'll guarantee it if the EU does the same, put it towards the EU first and then it's their court to reciprocate. People are in limbo.
That's a fair point.
A soft Brexit would have involved accepting the four freedoms, perhaps joining the EFTA. Then we could have negotiated membership of other European bodies, such as EURATOM or the ECAA.
But keeping freedom of movement is clearly unacceptable to the British public, so that's not an option. I think the time to fight for that and explain how it was a benefit to the British people has long gone, it should have been fought for a decade ago.
Nope, we should unilaterally guarantee their rights. Even if the EU countries were going to sling all British citizens currently residing on the continent into rickety boats in the Channel, it'd still be the morally and economically right thing to do.
Based on what (current) evidence? You can't base this entirely off of the referendum.
the working class HATE the IRA
Why is this throwing them under the bus?
What about doing the right thing, and guaranteeing the rights of people who already live here? They have jobs, families, own property, pay taxes, etc etc. Kicking them out just so as not to "throw UK citizens under the bus" would be absolutely disgusting.
Your point about "pretty please" is nonsense as well. People like Verhofstadt are talking about associate EU membership for UK citizens! The appetite to fuck up a load of peoples established lives to "take back control" really isn't there in the EU.
Do they still? Surely true enough during the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, but now?
(Not trying to say you're wrong, btw, just surprising, considering all else that's happening in the world.)
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