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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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Deleted member 231381

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May gets beaten by Corbyn on a surprisingly large number of PMQs, she's not especially good at them which I think was another impetus behind her decision to avoid debates. Not that this implies Corbyn is good, mind - we just face a paucity of talent across the spectrum at the moment.
 

PJV3

Member
I imagine she would be well-coached, but May's defining flaw is that she stands for nothing. The whole reason she's PM is because she never took a position on anything important. All her answers and speeches say nothing.

It's the reason she would "win" the debate, people are able to a certain degree think she's on their side, she hasn't really done anything as PM.

There was something where she almost stood up to china over a power station but that's about it. People sort of realise there are issues with hospitals and schools but that started before she came along.

I don't see the debates making a difference, Farron would probably do best out of it.
 

Meadows

Banned
I thought May generally came out on top vs Corbyn - some of her putdowns were fucking fire.

She did struggle vs the SNP though as per. Pity there won't be a debate but the Tories are going to win biggggggggggggg this election. Like 400+ seats.
 

Meadows

Banned
New polls showing why Corbyn et al don't stand a chance.

Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 57 minutes ago

% of public who are Satisfied / Dissatisfied with:

T. May: 56 / 37
J. Corbyn: 27 / 62
T. Farron: 30 / 37
P. Nuttall: 21 / 50

At least after this election it looks like UKIP might go the way of the BNP.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm rather hesitant to talk up our politics in any way right now, but I find it heartening that pretty much every British poster is disappointed in Blair and Osborne's speaking engagements for moneyed interests regardless of partisan alignment. It's more than a little depressing to see so many Democrats defend it. It does make me wonder about the cause of the difference in attitudes, though.
 

Pixieking

Banned
I'm rather hesitant to talk up our politics in any way right now, but I find it heartening that pretty much every British poster is disappointed in Blair and Osborne's speaking engagements for moneyed interests regardless of partisan alignment. It's more than a little depressing to see so many Democrats defend it. It does make me wonder about the cause of the difference in attitudes, though.

British politics is dirtier than US in this area, and the lobbying is more systemic (and as such slightly more open) in the US. Cash for Questions during the 90s has had a dramatic effect on how we perceive UK politicians taking money, I think.

By contrast, I see no issue with Obama taking paid speaking engagements, because, relatively speaking, he's so morally superior to UK politicians, it's like a different world.

Edit: Also, a smaller Old Boys Network in the UK, maybe? You can't move for City investors and politicians who happen to know each-other (or at least, that's the perception). So lobbying and paid speeches has the potential for more quid pro quo?
 

PJV3

Member
I'm rather hesitant to talk up our politics in any way right now, but I find it heartening that pretty much every British poster is disappointed in Blair and Osborne's speaking engagements for moneyed interests regardless of partisan alignment. It's more than a little depressing to see so many Democrats defend it. It does make me wonder about the cause of the difference in attitudes, though.

aren't former presidents more active charity wise etc than British PMs, if Obama sticks to his plan to create a movement focusing on grass roots stuff then I'm not bothered by it.

If he's just stuffing it in his bank account then it's a shame really.
 
No TV debates = no real chance for May to be challenged about her record, and yet another appeasing and cretinous act by Labour.

As much as I like Tim Farron, I am not sure if news broadcasters will go ahead with a debate between him, Paul Nuttall, one of the Greens and the nationalists.

EDIT: Labour just confirmed 15th May for their manifesto. I said earlier to expect them earlier than that... sigh.
 

Acorn

Member
They've been using the same lines for years. Strong and stable and chaotic coalitions. Conservatives are a broken record who can only regurgitate sound bites.
It's hilarious that they went to coalition of chaos again when the chances of that being an outcome are probably lower than me winning the lottery without even purchasing a ticket.
 
I've not stepped into this thread yet, so my summarised thoughts.

The election is complete opportunism from May....and I can't blame her a bit for taking advantage of the moment. She has A50 Triggered, an opposition in complete disarray and still fractured over Corbyn, Lib Dems a tiny force as ever, and the SNP helping keep Labour from gaining valuable seats in Scotland.

Her line over how she faced opposition in regarding to triggering A50 was merely spin of course. The opposition and the Lords rightly scrutinised and offerred ammendments to the Bill, but eventually fell back and voted with the government. The only stability arguement which holds any merit is in the medium term, as the government goes to put through various bills as the UK disentangles itself over the next several years. There's danger there that with a small current majority (and the various clangers and shocks that Brexit throws up), the government could lose votes, and lead to a collapse in confidence. Also, by the next election being three years out, rather than one, from the intended leave date in 2019, there's a better continuity of government, especially as I believe there will be a substantial transitional period.

In all, it's a savvy political move by May, that caught pretty much everyone off guard, and allows her to move on her opponents with limited risk, and substantial rewards on offer in the form of a much increased majority.

So, my predicted big winners from the election:

Tories. I'm expecting a gain of 30-40 seats. A lot of the public look at personalities over policies, and May (hardly being a Thatcher herself), completely eviscerates Corbyn in the eyes of most. Outside of that, whilst there are millions of families struggling, a lot of them will simply stick with the devil they know. "Things have been far from great, but they could be much worse, why risk that?". It's a sentiment I came across in 2015, even from a lot of individuals you wouldn't have as traditional Tory voters.

The incessent messaging of 'strength, stability' etc, and that of 'weak, coalition of chaos' etc will play out very well here. Particularly as Brexit will be the defining message of the election, whatever Corbyn might believe. Despite the Tory infighting causing this mess, people will be drawn to the idea of giving May a 'strong hand to negotiate with', as the public seems to have resigned themselves to not only that Brexit is happening, but that May's version of Brexit is the most coherent offering.

Lib Dems: a few more years out from the coalition, fresh leader (weird attitudes to homosexuality aside), and people realising the work they did in holding back the Tories, will help them win a few seats. On a good evening 5-10. Mostly seats with relatively well educated left leaning constituents.

And the losers

Labour: They're in big trouble. Corbyn as a person (and perceptions of how likely he is to win) will turn traditional Labour voters off in droves, putting at risk relatively safe labour seats. He will try to change the debate away from Brexit, to the NHS, to schools, prisons, workers rights, and announce a lot of policies that gel well with those voters. But for several reasons (including personality politics, infighting, Corbyn being seen as a raving loony, lack of support in the media, foreign policy positions) they will either be largely ignored.

Corbyn won't step down with any urgency once Labour loses the election.

UKIP: despite three million votes in 2015, the Brexit process has begun. The referendum has been held, the result its voters wanted achieved, and A50 has been triggered. I expect the number of votes plummet, as prior supporters contemplate why it is they should vote for the party once more, when their vote would be better served helping consolidate a Tory victory, which will be directly in power, pushing Brexit through. They've become a protest party without a protest to make, with the Tories carrying on their work one way or the other. The party has also lost its beer swilling mascot too. Paul Nutall has far less appeal to that kind of voter.

Hard to tell either way:

SNP: I think they'll lose seats, but nothing major.
Greens: No idea TBH.

They've been using the same lines for years. Strong and stable and chaotic coalitions. Conservatives are a broken record who can only regurgitate sound bites.

Because they work. Drum in the same lines, which creep into the news, the papers, interviews, on the doorstep. Simple lines, on repeat, filter through to most of the population (that will go out and vote), and set up an image of the party, an imagine in brief if you will.

If you watch interviews with punters on the streets, lots of them will repeat similar sentiments when pressed on why they intend to vote Tory.
 

PJV3

Member
It's hilarious that they went to coalition of chaos again when the chances of that being an outcome are probably lower than me winning the lottery without even purchasing a ticket.

People should be more worried about Empress May and the difficulty of rebuilding opposition if she does badly, a little bit of pressure from her own country isn't a bad thing.
 

Acorn

Member
People should be more worried about Empress May and the difficulty of rebuilding opposition if she does badly, a little bit of pressure from her own country isn't a bad thing.
Precisely. If it made a possible difference I'd even hold my nose and go back to labour but they are beyond dead here. To quote Kendrick Lamar "what you are hearing is a paranormal vibe" when the lab candidates speak in Scotland.

The thing that does my head in about May is the fawning over her like she has actually achieved anything. The opposition self destructed and her tory opposition last year killed eachother. She just hides.

Hiding is not strong leadership.
 
UKIP: despite three million votes in 2015, the Brexit process has begun. The referendum has been held, the result its voters wanted achieved, and A50 has been triggered. I expect the number of votes plummet, as prior supporters contemplate why it is they should vote for the party once more, when their vote would be better served helping consolidate a Tory victory, which will be directly in power, pushing Brexit through. They've become a protest party without a protest to make, with the Tories carrying on their work one way or the other. The party has also lost its beer swilling mascot too. Paul Nutall has far less appeal to that kind of voter.

I quite like the bolded. A pithy way of putting it.
 
I think May's popularity is due to the VAST majority of people not really caring about politics and just voting for what feels right. They aren't involved enough to care about the details any more than the average gamer cares about the views of Mattrick and Spencer. They just want a simple summary of policy from someone who appears confident.
"Take back control" and "Strong and stable" repeated 10 times in every speech and interview sounds horrendous to most of us in this thread, but it's what most people want.

Charisma is really important, followed by competence.

And May's evasiveness comes across as confidence and an iron will to people who really don't care about the details of economic policy.
Meanwhile, attempts to actually answer a complicated question can be misinterpreted as attempts to avoid the issue, when the answers are too technical or nuanced to be understood by most people ("What's ee talkin' 'bout? Just answer yes or no you fucking cockwomble!")

With very few exceptions (and I an NOT one of them for most areas of politics, this isn't a stealth-brag post), people want the TL;DR version.
May knows this, which is why she always goes for the appeal to emotion rather than getting bogged down in factual arguments. And it's super-effective.
 

PJV3

Member
Precisely. If it made a possible difference I'd even hold my nose and go back to labour but they are beyond dead here. To quote Kendrick Lamar "what you are hearing is a paranormal vibe" when the lab candidates speak in Scotland.

The thing that does my head in about May is the fawning over her like she has actually achieved anything. The opposition self destructed and her tory opposition last year killed eachother. She just hides.

Hiding is not strong leadership.

She can't be that good of a leader if she can't function with an effective opposition.
It's creepy that people can't see through it, especially with our system, she controls almost everything.
 

Acorn

Member
Another thing, the fixed terms parliament act is now an even bigger joke than before. It's just a locked in 5 year govt now when the majority of govts went to the polls 3-4 years not the maximum of 5 unless they knew losing was inevitable (Major, Brown).

I don't want fucking continual locked in 5 year govts that can still go to the polls on a whim to reset the clock. It's disgusting.

4 years should be the max at the very bloody least.

All the advantages of the previous system with none of the disadvantages for whatever govt.
 

Jezbollah

Member
so Corbyn won't do the debates if May doesn't? As much as this seems like another missed open goal, I can see the sense given that all the other party leaders would tear into him in a brutal fashion...
 

Acorn

Member
She can't be that good of a leader if she can't function with an effective opposition.
It's creepy that people can't see through it, especially with our system, she controls almost everything.
The hilarious over egging of the power of the opposition in her election announcement demonstrates her weakness to any who actually examine what she said.
 
so Corbyn won't do the debates if May doesn't? As much as this seems like another missed open goal, I can see the sense given that all the other party leaders would tear into him in a brutal fashion...

Farron would obliterate him. Sturgeon would do well also.

But that's not a good reason to not do it.

Here is your golden opportunity to prove yourself: no Tory to scream about credibility and a bunch of no-hopers.

And Corbyn's like: nah
 

Acorn

Member
so Corbyn won't do the debates if May doesn't? As much as this seems like another missed open goal, I can see the sense given that all the other party leaders would tear into him in a brutal fashion...
Fuck it, empty chairing May should be worth a kick in. He should simply accept he isn't winning and make his entire aim of the election to inflict as much damage as possible and expose this evasive pussy of a leader's weaknesses.
 

slider

Member
She can't be that good of a leader if she can't function with an effective opposition.
It's creepy that people can't see through it, especially with our system, she controls almost everything.

Policy aside I can't believe she hasn't been picked apart for her manner. She makes my skin crawl and her speech writers, in an attempt to sound Churchillian, make her sound awkward af. I'll have to dig some quotes out to be sure I'm not making this up.

All personal opinion though. I'm sure she's a lovely person and means well. :|
 

Jezbollah

Member
9QXytXF.jpg
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Corbyn's best chance is to contrast himself against May; to set himself up as target for all the other left-wing leaders to sling mud at is less of a golden opportunity. I'm not sure it's an unwise decision.

In other news, it would appear David Ward has been sacked by Tim Farron.
 

Acorn

Member
Farron would obliterate him. Sturgeon would do well also.

But that's not a good reason to not do it.

Here is your golden opportunity to prove yourself: no Tory to scream about credibility and a bunch of no-hopers.

And Corbyn's like: nah
He's the only bigger bottler than May. That or a criminally poor politican despite it being his life's work.

Dumb cunt.
 

PJV3

Member
Fuck it, empty chairing May should be worth a kick in. He should simply accept he isn't winning and make his entire aim of the election to inflict as much damage as possible and expose this evasive pussy of a leader's weaknesses.

Corbyn is a bit of a fraud, he doesn't want to take on the Tories, he wants to sit in rooms with other socialists and stroke each other.

It's his favourite kind of campaign.
And yes he's a dumb cunt acting like he's leading the election and has too much to lose.
 
Corbyn's best chance is to contrast himself against May; to set himself up as target for all the other left-wing leaders to sling mud at is less of a golden opportunity. I'm not sure it's an unwise decision.

In other news, it would appear David Ward has been sacked by Tim Farron.

Dropkicked so hard his arse will have an imprint of the toe leather.
 

Acorn

Member
Policy aside I can't believe she hasn't been picked apart for her manner. She makes my skin crawl and her speech writers, in an attempt to sound Churchillian, make her sound awkward af. I'll have to dig some quotes out to be sure I'm not making this up.

All personal opinion though. I'm sure she's a lovely person and means well. :|
My godson actually said "She looks evil" the other day. He's 7 so no political knowledge to base that off.
 
so Corbyn won't do the debates if May doesn't? As much as this seems like another missed open goal, I can see the sense given that all the other party leaders would tear into him in a brutal fashion...

I don't understand why you would turn down the chance to appear on national television and spend an hour slating the government's record with no-one there to defend them. It's an open goal.

Instead he's probably off to preach to his Facebook followers at one of our fine metropolitan cities.
 

Acorn

Member
Heh. From the mouths of babes.

Poor old Gordon Brown's treatment is in stark contrast looking back.
I still cannot believe the depression attacks Cameron and the tories made. Also Andrew Neil(who is from here Paisley, Scotland and hence a bit of a personal home town hero) I think it was trying to grill him about it. I'll give Neil the benefit of the doubt but the tories knew exactly what they were doing whilst pursuing​ the 'weak' line.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Definitely a big mistake for Corbyn to duck the TV debates, for as much as May can't win anything by doing them he can't lose, public opinion of him is already so low he'd be praised for just managing to stand for 60 minutes. If he was smart he could use the opportunity of fighting an empty chair to rip holes in Mays 'strong mandate' argument, but let's not expect miracles, just showing up would be a win.
 

Jezbollah

Member
The more I think about Corbyn's decision, the more I think he's a cybernetic, reptilian agent sent back in time by George Osbourne in the year 2040.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Another thing, the fixed terms parliament act is now an even bigger joke than before. It's just a locked in 5 year govt now when the majority of govts went to the polls 3-4 years not the maximum of 5 unless they knew losing was inevitable (Major, Brown).

I don't want fucking continual locked in 5 year govts that can still go to the polls on a whim to reset the clock. It's disgusting.

4 years should be the max at the very bloody least.

All the advantages of the previous system with none of the disadvantages for whatever govt.

I don't really mind it, in all honesty. We're a parliamentary system. If the government can't command the confidence of the legislature, you need some way to be able to trigger an early general election. It's not like a presidency where the two parts can operate independently. Sometimes that process will be abused - governments will trigger an early general election even when they do quite clearly command the confidence of the legislature. But it ought to be the public that holds them accountable for that, wit the prompting of the opposition. That's not happening because Labour is a shambles and because the public support the Conservative programme, but that is an exceptional state of affairs and I think trying to lock in parliaments would do more harm than good overall.
 

PJV3

Member
Definitely a big mistake for Corbyn to duck the TV debates, for as much as May can't win anything by doing them he can't lose, public opinion of him is already so low he'd be praised for just managing to stand for 60 minutes. If he was smart he could use the opportunity of fighting an empty chair to rip holes in Mays 'strong mandate' argument, but let's not expect miracles, just showing up would be a win.

Yeah, he could definitely have worked on it.

The strength to face Germany and 26 others, but not the strength for a TV debate with Jeremy. If he hired someone competent they could rustle up some killer lines.
 
Theresa May looks competent. That's enough considering how terrible Corbyn is and how unknown the Lib Dems are. A lot of people don't even know what the Lib Dem EU policy even is. Doesn't mean she's actually competent.

So, Labour wants to hike up corporation tax, eh?

Bam. There goes the small business vote.

I actually find Angela Rayner to be an extremely attractive woman, on an unrelated note. Don't know what that says about me. If only I could spend a night with her, oh my :p
 
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