Of course you can. One's a policy concern, and the other is an issue of competence.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Of course you can. One's a policy concern, and the other is an issue of competence.
PJV3
Member
Of course you can if it's being used as an issue to gain power and do other stuff you don't like.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Tribal politics in a nutshell. I'm fine with immigration the way it currently is. I enjoy interacting and working with people from different corners of the globe. 10s of thousands is impossible even outside the EU unless you want to stop everyone except PhD's from moving over.
To take it back to the national debt then:
How can the Tories attack Labour on the national debt, when they also increased it, only by cutting everything at the same time?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well with immigration you can just say it's the EU's fault.
Instead of "you can't attack", what I should say is "it's not an effective attack". To say look at that you let in all those immigrants, tut tut. And then to turn around and say I actually like that, and would have gone even further. Are you complementing them? It's a confused message, and not a great way to persuade people to your side.
With your standard polticking:
i) we haven't had enough time to "turn the ship around" after LABOUR;
ii) we need to be given more time to "see the job through";
iii) and by the way they would do an even worse job than we're doing;
iv) <cheap shots about appearance and bearing>
etc etc
Linkstrikesback
Member
No, they aren't. All the recent polls put Brexit as still slightly​ more popular than remain., Bar this one. I can't work out the thought processes of leave voters, but they seem... Steadfast, if nothing else.
I suspect that result is within statistics error, but I can't read the whole thing to see right now.
PJV3
Member
The attack would be the government using a wedge issue that they can't or aren't really trying to solve themselves.
Otherwise you're just giving the government a blank cheque regarding their manifesto, it's meant to be a basic part of holding the government to account, this is what you said, this is what you did.
Well yeah, that's what happens in the end in reality. That doesn't mean the original point doesn't stand though
SporeCrawler
Member
SO apparently the polls are suggesting that the majority of People in the UK are actually regretting the Brexit. At the moment only the LibDems seem to he championing an exit from brexit, while labor is supporting brexit. Why arent people just voting for the libdems?
The figure's on a par with the Tories'. Take the L.
PJV3
Member
Our shitty electoral system doesn't help for a kick off, and then people left and right have different reasons to be for and against the EU.
SporeCrawler
Member
There are many reasons to be against the EU but leaving it is another issue in particular if you benefitted from the EU for so long (eg the banking sector)
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Because the Tory plan was to tackle the debt by reducing the structural deficit, which - until the deficit is eliminated - means the debt continues to rise. The Tories didn't claim to be able to reduce the debt in this timescale, just the deficit.
Of course, they haven't managed to eliminate the deficit either.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I know, right?!
It's not that easy, alas. Tribal voting and the bad electoral system means we'd probably be needing about 45% of the national vote to form any sort of government. The Tories only really need about 36%.
As a Lib Dem, I'm optimistic that quite a lot of people are going to switch as the campaign goes on. This is going to be a brutal campaign, but Labour are unelectable, UKIP are nowhere and despite calling the election and the polls, there's a good chance of getting a few kicks in on the Tories, too.
Other than a few people around saying "I can't stand Farron", we're in a pretty good place for growth. It just has to happen now.
I was kind of touching on this with the original point that increasing the national debt through increasing investment spending vs increasing the national debt by cutting things are different economic policies and its ok to think one is good and the other is bad
PJV3
Member
Oh I know, there's lots of reasons we are in this pickle. The Tories being able to turn every little bit of internal Tory party stuff into the national interest doesn't help either.
SporeCrawler
Member
Is 45% really unachievable given how catastrophic the brexit is seemingly going to be?I know, right?!
It's not that easy, alas. Tribal voting and the bad electoral system means we'd probably be needing about 45% of the national vote to form any sort of government. The Tories only really need about 36%.
As a Lib Dem, I'm optimistic that quite a lot of people are going to switch as the campaign goes on. This is going to be a brutal campaign, but Labour are unelectable, UKIP are nowhere and despite calling the election and the polls, there's a good chance of getting a few kicks in on the Tories, too.
Other than a few people around saying "I can't stand Farron", we're in a pretty good place for growth. It just has to happen now.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Speaking as a Lib Dem, who has campaigned for the party since 2009?
YES.
...At least without a TV debate.
The big issues are:
1. Getting the message out
2. Tribal voters
3. Safe seats
4. Being taken seriously
5. Gaffes and the coalition government hangover.
To beat the above, Farron would have to be given a free massive media event to introduce himself properly to English voters. Without a TV debate that won't happen, so we're probably going to finish third... or maybe a narrow second if Labour's fears about getting 20% play out.
Linkstrikesback
Member
It's the intent that's the problem. I don't mind them including pensions on a graph of state spending, in fact, that should be public knowledge.
Problem is, they designed the welfare chunk of the graph like that specifically to appeal to people who assume that "welfare budget" means "scroungers and people faking disabilities", and justify making austerity cuts to those people.
blazinglord
Member
The problem is, it isn't actually going badly 'catastrophic' though is it?
Negotiatons haven't started, there is no clear picture of what the final deal might resemble (except end of freedom of movement which has a lot of popular support) and the economic collapse we were all promised in the campaign has failed to materialise yet.
I am sure it is all calm before the storm, but at the moment, campaigning to change course against the 'disaster' that is Brexit isn't going to be a vote winner or appeal to anyone other than hardcore remainers. I think most people (soft remainers and the politically apathetic) are ambivalent about May's brexit policy.
But it's not, really.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
To be fair in the age of new media he needs to be penetrating Facebook feeds and not TV screens, though I admit a debate would do both. It's something that I haven't seen much of from any of the parties in the last couple years, though it probably has more to do with who I'm friends with.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Facebook is a black art, but it's something that will be used extremely heavily this campaign.
Entertaining news: Boris Johnson's sister, Rachel, has joined the Lib Dems.
https://www.channel4.com/news/rachel-johnson-joins-liberal-democrats-block-brexit
She's apparently wanting to stand in Yeovil or Bath. She'll be disappointed - our party process requires all parlimentary candidates to pass an assessment, and those don't generally run at election time.
My Facebook feed is about 40% Corbyn, 5% Greens, 55% people telling me how great their fucking lives are.
I don't use Facebook much.
One of the BBC's reporters asked May what a mugwump was. One guess what her answer was.
QuicheFontaine
Member
lmao incredible
She nearly had to communicate like a normal person but the "strong and stable" programming kicked in. That was close.
This is definitely Lyndon Crossby. It was the same in 2015 - no matter what the question or topic, it would always lead back to "long term economic plan". I know politicians always like to use their key phrases but it's definitely a hall mark of his that they force it into every single line ever.
It is a genius strategy as well - it attacks Corbyn without naming him, plays up her biggest strength (the appearance of being the adult in the room), and it makes it a patriotic move to vote for Theresa - even if you don't like her, voting for her will help Britain beat Europe.
It is a genius strategy as well - it attacks Corbyn without naming him, plays up her biggest strength (the appearance of being the adult in the room), and it makes it a patriotic move to vote for Theresa - even if you don't like her, voting for her will help Britain beat Europe.
PJV3
Member
It will be interesting to see if she can pull it off like Cameron did, she's not natural and it's already becoming a joke a week in.
Lol. At her response.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It was hilarious (I genuinely laughed out loud), but this stuff works man. That's why they do it!
PJV3
Member
I know, C4 news asked people in the street about May and they said she was strong, but they don't know why.
boxoctosis
Member
Though in contrast if you saw Corbyn on Marr on Sunday unwilling to give a straight answer on using nuclear weapons for instance, he looked very very weak. Dithery. Geography teacher-esque. No wonder the Tories are taking this line of attack, it's free money.
Such a shame Labour are in this mess.
it "works" because it goes totally unchallenged. That's the benefit of having the media on your side
PJV3
Member
If the opposition was more ruthless they could Ed Miliband her, she's really stiff and awkward and you can see the cogs whirring away. Cameron was oily and slick but he was a good salesman and a natural bullshitter.
AHA-Lambda
Member
No way... That's legit??
Um, Trump did exactly this. What is his single policy? Build the wall. What's his slogan? Make America Great Again.
Repeating things endlessly *works*, especially when it plays into a narrative that's already clear in peoples head (Iron Lady versus dithering geography teacher).
SporeCrawler
Member
it is not going catastrophic because nothing has changed yet aside of a devaluation of the pound. tariffs will kick in and financial institutes will be barred once UK is out of the EU.
the picture is clear. there will be no trade deal until the modalities of the divorce are clear and EU is prepping for some hard points. it will be nearly impossible to pull that off within two years and after that who knows how long it will take to negotiate a trade deal.
aside of that there are internal issues like the scottish independent movement and the problem with northern ireland and gibraltar... so yeah its going really well..
What?
Trump followed this strategy to a tee. He operated entirely in monosyllabic soundbites and catchphrases.
Make America Great Again. Build The Wall. Lock Her Up. Crooked Hillary. Drain The Swamp.
It works because of how the human brain works. We learn by repetition.
Kotetsu534
Member
It sounds ridiculous to people like us who follows this stuff closely, but there aren't actually that many people following politics day-in day-out. For people who catch a couple of bulletins a week, hammering one or two key ideas into their minds is vital.
As far as I can tell it is!
It's annoying, not only because it's a reheated slogan from the last election, but because it works. Most people are only going to hear or read a few lines about this election, and if all they end up hearing is 'strong and stable leadership' and associate it with May, she wins.
I mean, for us crazy people who follow political events everyday, it's grating to hear it for the Xth time. Had I been serious about my drinking game, I'd have already been dead from liver failure. But we aren't the people being targeted with this stuff.
Jezbollah
Member
You say that, you're probably right.. but Election 101 is getting your message across. Being clear, concise and sticking to it. It gets boring, but it's effective.
A few days ago you had Corbyn delivering a message about Trident and Defence that was completely contradictory to Labour party policy. Confusion about policy is not what you need right now.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Modern British politics:
I....Don't. What? lol
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