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[Audioboxer]

I'm fully aware. Really makes me wonder how people cope.

Well, an NHS certainly helps, especially if you're a single mum/low-income family and kids being kids still get cuts, bruises and broken bones! GPs and free prescriptions too.

Outside of health, scraping by or amassing unsecured debt. Often not helped by many families or individuals needing to rent from private landlords. Not every private landlord is a cunt, but boy, there are a lot of cunts out there.

As I've said a few times a compassionate, caring society props everyone up. Well done if you're earning 2~3x the average, but remember someone needs to do all the kinds of jobs you've leap-frogged and never need to think about. You can't just annex yourself off into a bubble of wealth and only live around wealthy people (well, you can for your home/living area, but not from society at large). Those lower end council jobs, customer service, retail and so forth need to be occupied for your benefit too. Just the way a society has to function, and in the pursuit of trying to look out for everyone, public services are crucial. We should never have privatised as many as we have, but the NHS would be the worst to sell off when compared to rail/electricity/etc.

Outright for profit healthcare is how you get American healthcare.

 

[Moosichu]

Actually, this is interesting. We obviously have different desired outcomes of what the role of government is. Interestingly, the word "fairness" has been thrown around a lot - something which means different things to different people.

For example, the things I consider with any policy is simply the effects it will have, pragmatically and ideally in an evidence-based manner.

A good example of how this can effect policy is with security.

A lot of companies face the problem that their employees will receive phishing emails, and other nasty things. The "common sense" solution is to educate employees about these things, and to train people not to fall for them. Furthermore, you could punish employees who fail at doing this.

However, many studies have shown that this simply does not work. However, the people in charge of implementing these security polices feel good about themselves because they feel their actions are doing something, even though they aren't improving security in their companies at all.

My belief in trying to solve such a problem then, is to look at the evidence and analyse what does work, and go from there. If there is no evidence, try to at least perform some thought expirements as to what the actual vs intended consequences of a policy may be.

An example of this is justice system - are we trying to punish people or prevent crime from happening in the future. This is an important one as well, because there is some evidence to show that these goals do have some mutual exclusivity.

So when talking about taxes, I try to think of what I perceive the goals of taxes to be, and how changing them ideally brings us closer or further away from achieving those goals. And don't just think - more taxes = more revenue, or less taxes = more productivity and private enterprise. Because these aren't zero sum games, and humans are irrational creatures.

History is a good place to look to, because humans haven't changed much in the past few thousand years.

One thing that is super interesting is inequality, a huge body of evidence has been appearing that shows that inequality negatively both the people at bottom, and the people at the top of the economic scale - in terms of how they value their happiness. So reducing it is a win-win, and that is one goal that I currently believe is a no-brainer to strive for.

 

[Pandy]

Well, an NHS certainly helps, especially if you're a single mum/low-income family and kids being kids still get cuts, bruises and broken bones! GPs and free prescriptions too.

Outside of health, scraping by or amassing unsecured debt. Often not helped by many families or individuals needing to rent from private landlords. Not every private landlord is a cunt, but boy, there are a lot of cunts out there.

I'm lucky enough to have a decent housing association flat. I've seen private rents for similar (or worse) properties that can be double what I pay.

Debt is the big thing I've been able to avoid with my increased earnings, really.
If I want to buy something (say 'hello,' my Nintendo Switch) or when an unexpected bill arrives then I can usually find a few hundred quid to pay for it.
I've previously been in low-earning jobs where I had to use an overdraft/credit card on a regular basis and it's not a fun way to live day-to-day.

 

[Halph n Halph]

"Labour shortage" is now code for put more ferries on companies are starting to have to pay staff a little more to keep them.

Yes. When companies say " labour shortages" they keep forgetting to put the word " cheap" before "labour"

 

[kharma45]

I used to see these lodges around when I was a kid.
Pardon my ignorance, but what are they even about? I've always paid them no attention or been interested to care until I seen this post.

They celebrate the victory of William III over James II at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm lucky enough to have a decent housing association flat. I've seen private rents for similar (or worse) properties that can be double what I pay.

Debt is the big thing I've been able to avoid with my increased earnings, really.
If I want to buy something (say 'hello,' my Nintendo Switch) or when an unexpected bill arrives then I can usually find a few hundred quid to pay for it.
I've previously been in low-earning jobs where I had to use an overdraft/credit card on a regular basis and it's not a fun way to live day-to-day.

It's crazy because in a lot of cases it's then the Government that then has to help fund living costs via benefits with the rental prices. I get everyone who has invested in property wanting to make money, but some take the piss, and on top of costs you usually find if they're ripping the arse out of monthly costs they're also the kind of landlord to never fix anything and hardly lift a finger to help.

The death of affordable/council housing being built at a good enough rate has given way to private owners buying up lots of property and charging an arm and a leg. I *think* it's worst in some parts of England. It's the Tory way, favouring property buyers who then privately charge a riot of a price, rather than the Government caring about social housing.

It sure isn't, but until the day the earth burns out there will always be debt culture and people struggling. Banks love debt, business loves debt, debt is how you successfully legally enslave humans. The best we can do is offer what reasonable comfort/support we can as a society, and as I said above realise many of these people do the jobs we still need to be done for society to function. Don't take them for granted or look down on them just because you escaped that having to be your life. Nuance is nuance, and sure there are individual examples of people taking the piss out of benefits or not trying, but even in some of these cases, you can unravel people who have either had awful upbringings, been abused or are suffering from mental health issues. Not everyone is some calculated lazy slob. Quite honestly most aren't. You think anyone really enjoys living a life of severe poverty and reliance on hand-outs? It's precisely why so many self-medicate, drink alcohol and so on.

No one is born like that from birth anyway (outside of genetic traits). Life/upbringing shapes most minds. As someone else said your parent's wealth/status is often a springboard for many to become wealthy themselves. Compassionate, caring societies tend to offer hope to people, and that feeds in belief and makes people want to self-improve (within their potentials, as no, not everyone can be a doctor/scientist/teacher/pilot). A big brother state which punishes heavily handily, and is perceived to favour "the man at the top" while running rampant with elitism/privatisation just leads to apathy/anger/frustration and potentially revolt. As in fuck the society, fuck the country, fuck the Government and what the fuck is the point of me trying? Which boggles the mind how many in that position, or teetering on it, go out in droves to... vote Tory. I guess the strength of the implanted British way of "blaming the other", where the other ends up not being the Government (it's immigrants/those poorer than me), is indeed pretty rife.

The Daily Mail and UKIP can definitely take their credit for successfully brainwashing many into those ways of thinking. Ultimately, one of the main reasons I support the SNP is the compassion in the message. Too many think that isn't a powerful tool to rebuild/help a society, but of course, it is. "Basic" psychology. The power of offering hope/positive vibes/compassion is at least one-third or even half of the battle. Sure, words are words, and it can be quite costly on taxes to fund social care/services in a country, but that is where you have to collectively as a population try and decide where the priorities should be.

 

[ExitPotato]

I understand GAF is fairly left leaning, and so am I, but I want to get a more well rounded political education, so can anyone recommend any good quality, right leaning news sources? Preferably UK based.

 

[brain_stew]

Pleased with the Lib Dem policy on the NHS. It's a sensible and progressive policy, that is easily understood and doesn't fall into the trap of dropping the full burden on a single tax bracket.

With the work done by Liberal Democrats in government to significantly raise the tax free allowance it won't place a high burden on those on minimum wage but ensures everyone makes a fair contribution to the impending crisis.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I understand GAF is fairly left leaning, and so am I, but I want to get a more well rounded political education, so can anyone recommend any good quality, right leaning news sources? Preferably UK based.

The Financial Times is probably the best in that respect, although you can just buy the Sunday edition if you're only in it for the political stuff. The Economist is quite good. The Spectator is hit and miss - about a quarter of their stuff is quite good, and three-quarters is blatant trolling and the newspaper version of shitposting.

 

[Kotetsu534]

I understand GAF is fairly left leaning, and so am I, but I want to get a more well rounded political education, so can anyone recommend any good quality, right leaning news sources? Preferably UK based.

The Spectator has been excellent over the past year or so. You can read it online for free by deleting cookies (I think this still works for it). The Telegraph's business and finance pages are worth reading too, but they're paywalled. There's The Economist too, with its much more globalist pro-market skew.

 

[travisbickle]

You can't get away from the fundamental laws of supply and demand no matter how much Macro economics you try to apply to a problem.

We ain't going to brute force our way out of this issue by just whacking taxes up we need to look at specific issues and the reasons behind them. Get wage inflation to a reasonable level (just above general inflation.) and everything starts to click together.

A rise in the price of labour, only means, a relaxation of the tension in the golden chain the wage-worker has already forged for himself - Karl Marx

 

[Kotetsu534]

One thing that is super interesting is inequality, a huge body of evidence has been appearing that shows that inequality negatively both the people at bottom, and the people at the top of the economic scale - in terms of how they value their happiness. So reducing it is a win-win, and that is one goal that I currently believe is a no-brainer to strive for.

There's also evidence that people are quite happy with unequal outcomes if they think they're a result of unequal contributions. But I think the real problem caused by high inequality doubled with low social mobility is more subtle - it results in a complete ignorance among the elite classes of what how life is lived by even the middle, never mind the bottom 20%.

 

[Jackpot]

I understand GAF is fairly left leaning, and so am I, but I want to get a more well rounded political education, so can anyone recommend any good quality, right leaning news sources? Preferably UK based.

The Times, though paywall and Murdoch owned. Telegraph is a shadow of its former self and outsources articles to the Daily Mail. The Economist is socially liberal even if economically centre.

Spectator is basically one step-removed from a blog by Boris Johnson or some other troll.

 

[Kotetsu534]

As luck would have it, here's Larry Elliott writing today on our "wonderful" economy. Dire stuff in there:

Wages and salaries provide a better guide to economic welfare. If pay packets are going up faster than inflation, our real incomes are rising. If inflation is rising faster than wage growth, real incomes are falling.

Geoff Tily, a senior economist at the TUC, has constructed an international league table of real wage growth from 2008 to 2015 using data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. It does not make pretty reading: during that period, UK real wages fell by 1% a year on average.

According to Tily's analysis, Britain ranked 103rd out of 112 countries for which data was available. It's fair to say that none of the other G7 countries enjoyed spectacular real wage growth either, but the UK was the only one that saw the value of pay packets decline. Of the 34 developed nations that are members of the OECD, the only one that saw weaker wage growth between 2008 and 2015 was Greece. Still, at least British workers did better than Venezuela (104th in the league table), the West Bank and Gaza (105th) and Iran (109th).

That's actually horrendous. Sure, factor in tax and benefit changes and you find that median real incomes have risen about 5% since 2008, and the couple of years of very low inflation (just ended) helped purchasing power, but we're likely beginning a period where tax credits will become less generous and inflation will rise, so we need wage growth.

 

[PJV3]

As luck would have it, here's Larry Elliott writing today on our "wonderful" economy. Dire stuff in there:



That's actually horrendous. Sure, factor in tax and benefit changes and you find that median real incomes have risen about 5% since 2008, and the couple of years of very low inflation (just ended) helped purchasing power, but we're likely beginning a period where tax credits will become less generous and inflation will rise, so we need wage growth.

I would say the only way is up from there, but never underestimate this country.

 

[RenditMan]

As luck would have it, here's Larry Elliott writing today on our "wonderful" economy. Dire stuff in there:



That's actually horrendous. Sure, factor in tax and benefit changes and you find that median real incomes have risen about 5% since 2008, and the couple of years of very low inflation (just ended) helped purchasing power, but we're likely beginning a period where tax credits will become less generous and inflation will rise, so we need wage growth.

The only thing that can be said is that if we had controlled immigration supply and demand economics would suggest that we should be looking to restrict it to only industries really struggling to fill positions. Once general wage inflation reaches high numbers we should then be looking to relax controls to bring it to more manageable levels.

I personally see that countries having control over the supply of labour is key to balancing the demand needs and therefore pricing of it.

 

[HaloRose]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

 

[Jezbollah]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

Give it a few days and all the manifestos will be coming out (I'll link them in the OP when they are released). Worth digging through them to find out more IMO.

In other news, it seems Emily Thornberry has put her foot in her mouth again today.

 

[Maledict]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

Look at your constituency and which party has a chance of winning it - normally that's only two. Every other party and every vote cast for them is totally wasted.

Choose between the two parties for the one that's closest to your opinions, and that's who you vote for. Anything else doesn't do anything.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

Well, brexit being equal, in this case you should clearly vote Corbyn.

 

[Oriel]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

Lib Dems? But with the god awful FPTP system that's probably a wasted vote. Christ, Britain's political system is truly dismal.

 

[Real Hero]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

what do you mean don't trust? What don't you trusts them with?

 

[Auctopus]

You've probably seen the video going round of Theresa May talking about the benefits of Brexit which is juxtaposed with her speaking about the huge financial detriments of Brexit from Spring last year.

I think the scariest thing about that video is how intelligent and normal May sounds when speaking about the negative affects of Brexit compared to how fake, unintelligent and spineless she's sounded over the last 6 months. She's trying to sell a lie she doesn't believe in to the public just to gain party strength. Ugh.

 

[HaloRose]

what do you mean don't trust? What don't you trusts them with?

I don't trust them with brexit! i'm going to vote labour we need changed this country i think corbyn will get us the better deal.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

McDonnell not immediately dropkicking any notion that he is a Marxist into the long grass this morning. "There is a lot to learn from Das Kapital".

He is getting a lot of discussion about 'only raising tax for the top 5%' which is not terrible. However money will have to be sourced at least in part from the entire spectrum of workers to raise sufficient money, I fear. Once again I am unwilling to put the boot into Labour's policies until we see costing - so when the manifesto comes out.

Meanwhile LDs getting to talk non-Brexit policy for a bit is a nice change. The NHS is a specialist subject for us thanks to Norman Lamb.

Polls moving back to normal for us again - floating about the 10-11% mark. Need to do a lot better but winning our targets is the big thing. My worry is that the public are going to see our drop in councillors and assume that we did really badly ("the Lib Dems lost - they can't win") when behind that loss in councillors is hiding a much recovered vote share.

Lib Dems? But with the god awful FPTP system that's probably a wasted vote. Christ, Britain's political system is truly dismal.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Acorn]

I don't trust them with brexit! i'm going to vote labour we need changed this country i think corbyn will get us the better deal.

I takes and i's takes but I can't takes no mo

 

[HaloRose]

I takes and i's takes but I can't takes no mo

Only one party will look after workers rights and stop us being exploited thats labour!

 

[Par Score]

Polls moving back to normal for us again - floating about the 10-11% mark. Need to do a lot better but winning our targets is the big thing. My worry is that the public are going to see our drop in councillors and assume that we did really badly ("the Lib Dems lost - they can't win") when behind that loss in councillors is hiding a much recovered vote share.

Nobody outside of absolute political obsessives even noticed the council elections happened, never mind what the results were.

Turnout was sub 30%, coverage was subsumed by the GE and French elections, they were a total non-event unlikely to move more than a handful of votes.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

No, I think people noticed the locals. "Tories won big, Labour lost lots" is about as much as I'd expect.

I know full well how bad information is these days. We are several weeks into the campaign and nearly half of voters don't have an opinion on Tim Farron.

The big danger we face as a country is walking into an authoritarian state because too many people are so confused about politics that they don't see it coming.

They get all their information from heavily biased sources on Facebook. They see their friends arguing. They don't know who to believe. May promises stability. They vote May.

Buzzfeed is reporting that Corbyn has far more social media impact and control than May. Bullshit. Go hunt down the less political voter and see where they are getting their news from via Facebook.

The low information voter is a scary thing, and it is why I think the scariest thing that could happen in the next five years is a National Front-style party getting a charismatic leader. Charisma matters hugely now - Farage was able to drag us out of Europe just by being charismatic. In America you had the bizarre charisma of Trump, too.

 

[Moosichu]

No, I think people noticed the locals. "Tories won big, Labour lost lots" is about as much as I'd expect.

I know full well how bad information is these days. We are several weeks into the campaign and nearly half of voters don't have an opinion on Tim Farron.

The big danger we face as a country is walking into an authoritarian state because too many people are so confused about politics that they don't see it coming.

They get all their information from heavily biased sources on Facebook. They see their friends arguing. They don't know who to believe. May promises stability. They vote May.

Buzzfeed is reporting that Corbyn has far more social media impact and control than May. Bullshit. Go hunt down the less political voter and see where they are getting their news from via Facebook.

The low information voter is a scary thing, and it is why I think the scariest thing that could happen in the next five years is a National Front-style party getting a charismatic leader. Charisma matters hugely now - Farage was able to drag us out of Europe just by being charismatic. In America you had the bizarre charisma of Trump, too.

Combine that with climate change and the automation revolution - there is a perfect storm of shit on the horizon.

 

[jimbobsmells]

They get all their information from heavily biased sources on Facebook.

And that's a huge problem IMO, and why we'll continue down this authoritarian path.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...eat-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

 

[w1ck3dn1nj4]

I like some of Corbyn's views on things like austerity, the NHS and Trident but don't trust him on brexit. I don't trust theresa may on brexit either so who to vote for?

Vote for the one whose policies align with your political beliefs the most. Only you know the answer to that. But let me just say this, none of the shit that they’re promising to implement have any sort of permanence which can’t be undone at a later time. Brexit on the hand, is a different ball game. There are no take backsies. Once the damage is done, that’s it.

 

[EGM1966]

Wrong thread (but only just)

 

[JonathanEx]

Also - if you're thinking "I like Labour generally but I don't like Corbyn", well, every chance is Corbyn will be ousted from leader, when why let that stop you!

 

[Par Score]

The low information voter is a scary thing, and it is why I think the scariest thing that could happen in the next five years is a National Front-style party getting a charismatic leader. Charisma matters hugely now - Farage was able to drag us out of Europe just by being charismatic. In America you had the bizarre charisma of Trump, too.

Oh, no argument there. Our society is currently leant further over a fascist precipice than at any point in my lifetime.

I just don't think the local elections have had any cut through whatsoever, much like Tim Farron

 

[Spaghetti]

It's weird seeing Farage described as having charisma, but I guess he must have something going for him to incite the weird cult of personality around him.

I've always found him a slimy fucking liar, but Farage seems to have tapped into that little bit of fearful, reactionary, ignorant bastard in all of us and weaponised it for his own agenda.

 

[CyclopsRock]

It's weird seeing Farage described as having charisma, but I guess he must have something going for him to incite the weird cult of personality around him.

I've always found him a slimy fucking liar, but Farage seems to have tapped into that little bit of fearful, reactionary, ignorant bastard in all of us and weaponised it for his own agenda.

Charisma doesn't rely on you agreeing with him. I find it hard to see how you don't recognise he has charisma.

 

[HaloRose]

The low information voter is a scary thing, and it is why I think the scariest thing that could happen in the next five years is a National Front-style party getting a charismatic leader. Charisma matters hugely now - Farage was able to drag us out of Europe just by being charismatic. In America you had the bizarre charisma of Trump, too.

there is saying history always repeats itself

 

[PJV3]

Charisma doesn't rely on you agreeing with him. I find it hard to see how you don't recognise he has charisma.

I can see why others might find him to be charismatic, he has nothing I find appealing.

 

[Acorn]

I can see why others might find him to be charismatic, he has nothing I find appealing.

Don't you like having a pint with the resident pub racist drunk?

 

[PJV3]

Don't you like having a pint with the resident pub racist drunk?

Exactly, I can find people I disagree with to have charisma, he's just a rude loud mouth.

A shit Arthur Daley.

 

[Spaghetti]

I find it hard to see how you don't recognise he has charisma.

Something about him seemed way off to me, and it always did. Like a really untrustworthy used car salesman, or the head of a multi-level marketing scheme. Maybe Farage could rub me up the wrong way without even a word of politics uttered.

Reading up on him doesn't do any favours either. The man of the people routine is pretty flimsy after a few minutes on Google, to the point where it's a bit shocking so many fell for it, or worse; accepted it.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I hate Farage but I do find myself listening to him and think that I understand why people are drawn to his cause when he makes speeches. There seems to be this very articulate 'just a normal guy against the establishment' feeling about him, even if he's a dick. I've watched a bit of his LBC radio shows and he is a very captivating speaker if you're predisposed to support him. He speaks with passion and apparent 'honesty'. He really knows how to play on people's emotions. Funnily enough there was this really cute girl in university who was a rich 'horse girl' stereotype and she said she wanted to fuck him because his voice was 'hot'.

 

[Maledict]

I don't think free prescriptions are a sign of a caring society at all. I think free prescriptions for all is a giant middle class bribe. It has absolutely zero impact on health outcomes and takes a huge chunk of money out of the NHS budgets and gives it to middle class people like myself who don't need it.

Prescriptions should be benefits passported - if you are in receipt of housing benefit, council tax benefit, job seekers allowance or a student then you don't pay. Otherwise you do.

 

[Moosichu]

I don't think free prescriptions are a sign of a caring society at all. I think free prescriptions for all is a giant middle class bribe. It has absolutely zero impact on health outcomes and takes a huge chunk of money out of the NHS budgets and gives it to middle class people like myself who don't need it.

Prescriptions should be benefits passported - if you are in receipt of housing benefit, council tax benefit, job seekers allowance or a student then you don't pay. Otherwise you do.

That adds a huge layer of bureaucracy - a progressive tax system exists to ensure that those earning more contribute more. Whether it goes far enough is up-to-debate, but I'm someone who is in favour of negative income tax over benefits passports anyway.

Although in the current system, your point does have merit.

 

[JimiNutz]

You've probably seen the video going round of Theresa May talking about the benefits of Brexit which is juxtaposed with her speaking about the huge financial detriments of Brexit from Spring last year.

I think the scariest thing about that video is how intelligent and normal May sounds when speaking about the negative affects of Brexit compared to how fake, unintelligent and spineless she's sounded over the last 6 months. She's trying to sell a lie she doesn't believe in to the public just to gain party strength. Ugh.

Can I get a link to the video? I need to send something like this to my stupid friend that continues to insist on voting for May lol

 

[Bleepey]

You've probably seen the video going round of Theresa May talking about the benefits of Brexit which is juxtaposed with her speaking about the huge financial detriments of Brexit from Spring last year.

I think the scariest thing about that video is how intelligent and normal May sounds when speaking about the negative affects of Brexit compared to how fake, unintelligent and spineless she's sounded over the last 6 months. She's trying to sell a lie she doesn't believe in to the public just to gain party strength. Ugh.

Link?

 

[travisbickle]

I hate Farage but I do find myself listening to him and think that I understand why people are drawn to his cause when he makes speeches. There seems to be this very articulate 'just a normal guy against the establishment' feeling about him, even if he's a dick. I've watched a bit of his LBC radio shows and he is a very captivating speaker if you're predisposed to support him. He speaks with passion and apparent 'honesty'. He really knows how to play on people's emotions. Funnily enough there was this really cute girl in university who was a rich 'horse girl' stereotype and she said she wanted to fuck him because his voice was 'hot'.

A rich horse girl stereotype wanted to fuck an ex-commodity trader sugar daddy, you don't fucking say?

 

[Juicy Bob]

Theresa May argues to stay in the EU - pre referendum

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I've actually not seen that video before. She seems like a completely different person.