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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Could be down to the policy we get with work.
Komatsu
Member
I frankly find the hysterical anti-Corbynism of even left liberal spaces such as the Grauniad's BTL to be nigh incomprehensible. Last year's leadership challenge was absolutely suicidal and stupid and, seriously, Labour's problems are structural. I am not sure a better leader than JC would fare much better.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Labour's leadership is absolutely the core of the problem - voters are not consistently responding 'I used to be Labour but Jeremy Corbyn happened'. And I don't remember something similar to Labour/Momentum members coming over to our lot in the pub and explaining how the sarin gas attack in Syria last month (?) was obviously not by Assad/Russia. Or TUSC endorsements.
Commander Jameson
Member
I am continually astonished by people who proclaim to be Labour voters say they would rather vote Tory than Labour now just because of Corbyn.
I do wonder what would have happened if the vote was 50-50 with a few thousand in favour of Brexit. Would it have been interpreted in the same way?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Factor in no new EU staff after free movement is gone and the NHS, if it survives, will end up having to rely on more nurses from countries like Jamaica, Philippines, etc. So the issue that most leavers have, too many foreigners, isn't addressed at all.
All you do end up with is people who come from a entirely different healthcare system, don't have as firm a grasp of the English language and an increasingly poor healthcare system that will continue to struggle until even people who would be dead without it demand change, even if that change comes in the form of private healthcare.
So basically, the NHS was nice while it lasted. Helped to keep my parents alive long after they should have been dead...I'll remember it fondly.
travisbickle
Member
I saw a couple of quotes the other day but if anyone is interested Lord Ashcroft polls are also doing a podcast of voter focus group responses, which is here: Ashcroft election tour
It's really interesting to hear the actual thoughts of so many people. Not sure how participants are selected and I guess some questions could be considered as leading/loaded, but fascinating nonetheless.
It's really interesting to hear the actual thoughts of so many people. Not sure how participants are selected and I guess some questions could be considered as leading/loaded, but fascinating nonetheless.
Possumowner
Member
Yup utterly baffles me as well,I mean Labour are closer to the Lib Dems or Greens than they are to Tories,but nope,they vote Tory instead... perhaps Brexit is there most important issue....or they just weren't very Labour to begin with
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Corbyn is in personal ideology (though not policy platform) very different from all Labour leaders for about 25-30 years. It is hardly surprising that there are many people who imagine Labour as a politically different thing to him.
Although I do think a big part of it is his inability to actually project a message in the media.
Although I do think a big part of it is his inability to actually project a message in the media.
Which isn't entirely his fault.
I don't view him as some sort of Saint, but he's had it against him from before he was elected.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Labour has always had the backing of a lot of social conservatives who voted for class reasons. With traditional classes breaking down to create a vast US-style precariat, those voters are now switching rightwards.
Corbyn is just generally useless. He couldn't run a whelk stall, let alone the country.
It doesn't have to be this way. Lib Dems won Burnley in 2010 - and indeed we could win Burnley back this election if we surged.
The massive issue is that you have these entrenched massive parties, and you have to move heaven and earth to get people to switch. And then you get their vote at the local council, but they still give it to the big two at the general because "oh I've always voted <blank>".
I am not sure if you can fix that in this election. With the terminal decline in Labour what you are seeing is Tory dominance. Thanks to people cheering on the collapse of the LD parliamentary party, you don't have that good third option being presented by the BBC and others.
It's a fat lot of good if we get some massive pile of votes and 50 seats in this election. The media will still treat UK politics as a fight between the Tories and Labour.
chromatic9
Member
EU workers make up about 5% of the NHS. Non EU make up far more. The country will be looking to the EU and outside the EU like always after Brexit. Leaving the EU doesn't mean no one will apply to work here like they did before 1990 or to anywhere else in the world like America or Canada with strict entrance.
I'm sure there will be some difficulties, some dust will need to settle and rights need to be sorted but this immigration target isn't about stopping people who have a job lined up with the NHS.
Also the NHS has been said to be at breaking point before Brexit and 300k net a year coming in to the country with no new hospitals getting built and wards closing means resources are stretched. Slower immigration might mean we can build houses and hospitals and schools in tow with the population.
Those 300k net, half of them are EU citizens. They tend to be in their 20's with no dependents, and stay for an average of 3 years. And are net contributors to the tax base (unlike about 80% of the population). They're the ideal immigrant for your scenario, the more difficult you make immigration the stickier it becomes.
In short you fuckwits are flinging out the wrong folk. But hey no more Polski Sklep on your highstreet.
And I'm not sure how removing net contributors and fucking over the economy (the best case scenario over the medium term post Brexit is still far lower than the no Brexit scenario) is going to foster a new age of hospital, school and house building. Since the English keep electing the Tories, it'll probably just foster a new age of trickle down tax cuts.
chromatic9
Member
I'm not for leaving. I voted remain. I already know half the 300k net is roughly from the EU.
Sorry, I'm tetchy this morning. Had a meeting in London, arrived at Heathrow, and found my client has had to postpone the meeting.
But you do understand what net migration means, right?
I think the migration target in the tory manifesto is bullshit though. Why set any limit? We might need a load of doctors, nurses, or even Costa Coffee workers one year, but with a limit in place we're only screwing ourselves over. The decision on whether someone can come in the UK shouldn't be also based on whether we've hit an arbitrary number for the year or not. Also aren't we going to need thousands of negotiators and lawyers to get us through Brexit?
Little Old Man
Member
The front page of the Daily Mail this morning made me smile: throwing a tantrum and not putting Macron's victory on it.
Someone I spoke to the other day wanted Le Pen to win because 'it would help with Brexit'. When I told them about her party's past, they were shocked.....
Someone I spoke to the other day wanted Le Pen to win because 'it would help with Brexit'. When I told them about her party's past, they were shocked.....
QuicheFontaine
Member
Jamaica - 97.6% English speaking
Phillipines - 92.6% English speaking
Odd examples...
Le Pen would have been a disaster for both the EU and Brexit. And more importantly, the human race too. The problem is that people only hear that she wanted to 'leave the EU' - they didn't want to know that was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the parties policies.
Also Frexit would be a much bigger deal than Brexit - firstly Le Pen would have invoked Article 50 without a referendum. And unlike the UK, France is in the single currency and Schengen area, and its exports rely far more on EU countries (with for example Germany being the largest - compared to US being UK's largest).
France exports 57% of its trade to the EU compared with the UK at 44%.
Hurrah for the Vichy regime!
Heh, good one
I would put money on that being a somewhat feigned shock to save face. Unlikely someone would know enough about them to think they "would help with Brexit", but then not have a clue what Front National represents.
British people are very good at supporting racism until they're told its racism. Then they feign ignorance.
Affordable Housing - for rich people to buy in bulk and rent out for insane prices to hurt the poor even more!
Ah yes, "affordable" housing. There is a new estate in Reading, they sent out a mailer trying to get existing homeowners to move there, I had a cursory look
The houses cost £150k more than my place is currently worth, were less than half the size, had no garage and no garden. That's the state of housebuilding in this country
The houses cost £150k more than my place is currently worth, were less than half the size, had no garage and no garden. That's the state of housebuilding in this country
I am not lucky enough to own a house, I could never afford the deposit. I am however lucky enough to live in a 120 year old Bungalow which admittedly it only has 3 rooms technically (bedsit/kitchen/toilet) I pay about £300 less rent than everywhere else in the area and I get a hell of a lot more space than all the other places I saw. The only downside is outside is a pretty populated road (cars all day).
My landlord actually seems reasonable too, he said he just wanted nicer people to move into the area which is why he dropped the rent but is very selective about who he rents to. My neighbour is in the same building as it was some Almshouses owned by the chuch and split up into 3 small flats is some guy from Brazil who's been living here for a good number of years now and said he's never had a problem with my Landlord.
I don't get why I'm bringing this up here, but if it wasn't for the one reasonable landlord in the area I'd probably still be on the verge of depression living at home with a member of my family I hated (step mum). I just wish I could actually afford a house, but with a Tory government that's never going to happen.
Not usually one to defend the Tories, but the Tories are the only reason we could afford a house. We bought a new house with Help to Buy with only a 5% deposit required. Before that we stood no chance of ever saving the deposit required.
EDIT: And I should say that our 'new home' (albeit 4 years old now) does have a large back garden, a front garden, a garage, a drive for two cars and is spacious for a three bed. It wasn't overvalued either, it's gone up in value significantly since we bought it (and the development is now complete). So not all new builds are as bad as some are suggesting! But there are a fair few rip-offs for sure, and we are out in the countryside, whereas urban areas I'm sure you're more likely to get less for your money with new homes.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Ah the "new build" premium. Par for the course these days. An extra £100-150k for one of those narrow three-storey "three bedrooms", where one of the bedrooms is a loft room with sloping ceiling. I'm not a fan.
We used the Help to Buy ISA to get an extra £2k from our savings (I think I actually posted a "How To" guide in the BritGAF thread sometime last year). It was a pretty good scheme, quite generous. And I think it still exists except it's been subsumed into this Lifelong ISA, or whatever they're calling it.
I think even if the Conservatives lost the election, lowering house prices would be a big ask. People are too obsessed with the value of their property in this country
The only reason I was able to afford a place is because I'm a grim miser who saved every penny he earned from age 18-28, and if I were born to poorer parents I'd definitely never have never even been able to do that. Home ownership is becoming an impossible dream for young people
Yeah these were 3 storey "town houses". While I'm not against 3 stories per say, the entire house was narrower than the master bedroom in my 1950's semi.
The only reason I was able to afford a place is because I'm a grim miser who saved every penny he earned from age 18-28, and if I were born to poorer parents I'd definitely never have never even been able to do that. Home ownership is becoming an impossible dream for young people
Yeah these were 3 storey "town houses". While I'm not against 3 stories per say, the entire house was narrower than the master bedroom in my 1950's semi.
Yeah but the only reason you needed the help to buy scheme is because we haven't been building enough houses for the last x decades (although now I think about it both parties are at fault for that, not sure if either deserves more of the blame).
Well yeah, house prices kept rising significantly during Blair's reign. They've slowed since 2008 but still rising. But wasn't the whole side-effect of Brexit supposed to be an eventual decline in house prices?
Jezbollah
Member
Well... Speaking from someone who lost £20,000 in equality due to falling house prices since 2007, I can say that it declined quite drastically between 2007 and 2012 (and only started recovering after that)
(thank fuck I paid off a load of my mortgage when I did..)
Daffy Duck
Member
God the local councillors and people who support Conservatives are a precious bunch round here.
Someone asked the Tory voters why they should vote for Zahawi in the GE and response from the soon to be mayor was that there are Tory supporters ont he group but they are afraid of speaking up for fear of abuse, the group is heavily moderated an nobody has previously been abusive.
Spineless.
Someone asked the Tory voters why they should vote for Zahawi in the GE and response from the soon to be mayor was that there are Tory supporters ont he group but they are afraid of speaking up for fear of abuse, the group is heavily moderated an nobody has previously been abusive.
Spineless.
travisbickle
Member
I'm exceptionally cynical about Theresa May being able to negotiate a deal. The only tactic I've ever seen from her is to make a joke about Labour/Corbyn which although is funny I don't believe will help with negotiating a new trade deal with the EU trading block?
PJV3
Member
She managed to convince the Jordanian government that torture was naughty, but she seemed annoyed about achieving it.
She might have some unusual skills.
Theonik
Member
I kinda feel these two spitting image clips work too well for the position labour is in right now.
https://youtu.be/z96ZD9bpp78
https://youtu.be/5JKvNoZzOEw
https://youtu.be/z96ZD9bpp78
https://youtu.be/5JKvNoZzOEw
JonathanEx
Member
On the subject of housing, if anyone else is a fan of podcasts then I'd recommend Private Eye's Page 94. Most recent episode had a chunk on homelessness, house building, help to buy, housing associations and all that - and if those words sound "oof", it's actually accessible and very interesting: http://www.private-eye.co.uk/eyeplayer/podcast
Generous indeed, I felt like someone was trying to buy my vote when it was announced. Especially as, IIRC, the day it was announced there were also cuts to some other benefits (I don't remember what exactly). Helping young people buy their own homes is good, doing it at the expense of those more needy is not ok in my book.
I imagine a 5% deposit also leaves you in a heap of debt? Although I don't remember exactly how the scheme works.
I remember I decided not to use it, which means...
This. 6 more months until I can finally afford the
JonathanEx
Member
The Tories rebrand to the Theresa May party continues
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/861510936728883200
And we thought Corbz had a cult of personality etc etc etc
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/861510936728883200
And we thought Corbz had a cult of personality etc etc etc
No government will do anything about house prices. Too many people have their entire worldview tied up in the value of their house, even as they complain about houses being utterly unaffordable for their children they would recoil instantly if making things affordable meant reducing their own equity.
Surefire way to get kicked out of government. And sadly the parties always care about staying in government, not about effecting the most change. This is not a left-right issue either.
Edit: the help to buy scheme really is quite good and you should look into it if you want to buy a house. But the downsides are as follows: the government basically owns the 20/40% that they give you, so whhn you move you have to pay back 20 or 40% of your houses value if you haven't paid it back already, making it difficult to move up or out unless you wait years. Secondly, it also acts as a kind of subsidy to house builders , making the new build premium even larger and just driving up prices all the more.
Surefire way to get kicked out of government. And sadly the parties always care about staying in government, not about effecting the most change. This is not a left-right issue either.
Edit: the help to buy scheme really is quite good and you should look into it if you want to buy a house. But the downsides are as follows: the government basically owns the 20/40% that they give you, so whhn you move you have to pay back 20 or 40% of your houses value if you haven't paid it back already, making it difficult to move up or out unless you wait years. Secondly, it also acts as a kind of subsidy to house builders , making the new build premium even larger and just driving up prices all the more.
chromatic9
Member
That's another problem.
I live in a Lib Dem area and vote for them. The campaign locally is to actually stop building on green belts and to protect the parks countryside and walkways. Make less strain on the hospitals and roads. Some terrace houses need to be torn down to widen roads near me, they're huge bottle necks.
UK has the smallest homes in Europe already. Quality of life is important. I think people need a bit of space. There's even a affluent area near me with big old detached homes, they squeezed in 5 homes last year on this patch of land amongst these large homes built in the 1930s and 1960s. Not only do they look odd, two out of the five have already moved out. There's no privacy or space compared to the homes from the 30s or 60s. You're paying 500k for a 150k new build experience. The novelty of a newly fitted home wears off soon.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Fantastic, now I'll never be able to watch 'The A-Team' without thinking about Theresa May.
I'm still angry about this and I don't think I will get over it. I'm from the Blaenau Gwent area and drive down the new A465 road built every day. Young members of my family go to the brand new college & we all enjoy the benefits of having a brand new Leisure centre and railway lines direct to the capital. All provided by EU funds. I then watch as the majority from the area vote to leave the EU.
PJV3
Member
The Tories rebrand to the Theresa May party continues
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/861510936728883200
And we thought Corbz had a cult of personality etc etc etc
Power going to head, will claim May day holiday for herself after the election.
Lots of people seem to be voting for her over the Tories so I see why she's doing it, it Still looks weird in a UK election.
Same here mate. You literally can't drive 5 minutes without seeing the EU logo somewhere. Ebbw Vale in particular has had a ridiculous amount of funding. Yet all I ever fucking hear from these idiots is "what did they ever do for us?".
QuicheFontaine
Member
The Tories rebrand to the Theresa May party continues
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/861510936728883200
And we thought Corbz had a cult of personality etc etc etc
I'm with Her!
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