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[Spuck-uk]

it pains me to watch Labour's platform

because i 100% agree with it.

its such a shame that we are so far from having this vision come true.

The sad thing is, when you ask in isolation, the majority of the country prefer their policies.

But, yknow, rah rah Corbyn Bad

 

[Xando]

Sums up labour pretty well:

"Election not about Brexit, that issue settled.... its about what sort of Brexit. "

'Election is not about Brexit but it is about Brexit'

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I'm listening to the speech right now by Corbyn and it is a bit Trump-esque. Swap "rigged system" for "crooked Hilary" for example. :\

Oh Lord, that's it?

 

[*Splinter]

The sad thing is, when you ask in isolation, the majority of the country prefer their policies.

But, yknow, rah rah Corbyn Bad

I'll (probably) vote for them based on their policies.

Corbyn is bad because he won't allow those policies to be implemented.

 

[Maledict]

The sad thing is, when you ask in isolation, the majority of the country prefer their policies.

But, yknow, rah rah Corbyn Bad

That's a fairly weak premise tbh. The conservatives can say the same - it's about how you ask the question and frame the response.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I'm listening to the speech right now by Corbyn and it is a bit Trump-esque. Swap "rigged system" for "crooked Hilary" for example. :\

You don't have to swap anything - "rigged system" itself is straight out of the Trump playbook.

 

[Real Hero]

Sums up labour pretty well:



'Election is not about Brexit but it is about Brexit'

That's true though?

 

[*Splinter]

I'm listening to the speech right now by Corbyn and it is a bit Trump-esque. Swap "rigged system" for "crooked Hilary" for example. :

Oh Lord, that's it?

His whole "I don't play by their rules" speech made me think of Trump more than anything else, but at least it gave us this gem:

 

[hodgy100]

I'm listening to the speech right now by Corbyn and it is a bit Trump-esque. Swap "rigged system" for "crooked Hilary" for example. :\

Oh Lord, that's it?

dude i appreciate you being a vocal lib dem supporter, but your triad against labour is only serving to sweep up labour votes, further dividing the left and resulting in a larger Tory majority.

if that's your aim then well done.

 

[Maledict]

That's still one of the most cringe-worthy things from this election.

 

[Xando]

That's true though?

How is it true when he says brexit is settled but asks what kind of brexit it'll be?

Brexit is settled when the final deal is ratified.

 

[Audioboxer]

The sad thing is, when you ask in isolation, the majority of the country prefer their policies.

But, yknow, rah rah Corbyn Bad

Shy Tories too

In the polling both

"Those Labour policies... pretty good and they align with my thoughts, but.... Everyone including the media says Corbyn is a terrible leader, so that is HUGE. I can't be seen voting for such a terrible leader, like that Ed Bacon Sandwich guy too. Also, I do recall hearing that those immigrants and poor people are constantly fucking putting us in debt and messing up the NHS. That's going to hurt my bank account and those people expect me to pay for all their shit? Right, Tory it is.".

But yeah, it's not just about Corbyn. Quite a lot of complexities why people who would ideally vote Labour keep going Tory. Especially the working-class/poor voters who seem to genuinely believe it's in their best interests to vote blue.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I'll (probably) vote for them based on their policies.

Corbyn is bad because he won't allow those policies to be implemented.

Who is the alternative that would have enabled them to win? I just don't see the point of continuing to focus on the failings of Corbyn and pining for some non-existant perfect leader when every effort should be on getting as many non-Tory MPs into power as possible. Continuing to push the "boo hoo Corbyn is bad he can never win" narrative is just a sell-fulfilling prophecy at this point.

 

[Real Hero]

How is it true when he says brexit is settled but asks what kind of brexit it'll be?

Brexit is settled when the final deal is ratified.

I assume he is referring to the lib dems etc who are trying to promise Brexit might be stopped which is a lie.

 

[Dabanton]

Westminster voting intention:

On who would you trust to promote a fairer society:

T. May: 46%
J. Corbyn: 37%

(via @Survation)

The idea that Theresa May will promote a fairer society is a sick joke. This is the leader of a party that says there are "complex reasons" why working nurses have to use food banks. Once again working people have to use food banks to survive. This is the United Kingdom in 2017. Our politicians and most of our supine media should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

I wonder how many others are having to rely on food banks, but their pride prevents them from admitting they use them.

If you can square that kind of stuff and still vote Tory you deserve the squalid even more selfish country that's incoming.

 

[Mr. Sam]

dude i appreciate you being a vocal lib dem supporter, but your triad against labour is only serving to sweep up labour votes, further dividing the left and resulting in a larger Tory majority.

if that's your aim then well done.

I find Huw_Dawson a bit rich on occasion but he's not far of the mark on this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ggressive-populist-poll-ratings-a7517351.html

Jeremy Corbyn to 'copy Donald Trump's populist strategy' in new bid to reverse poll ratings

 

[Number45]

Sums up labour pretty well:



'Election is not about Brexit but it is about Brexit'

Even ignoring the mixed messaging (which is really only a case of poor wording), I find it difficult to trust that Labour will fight for a good deal on the exit when they've failed to do so when the opportunity has presented itself.

I find myself between Labour and the Lib Dems, but am struggling to convince myself that I can vote for Labour due to the way that they've dealt with brexit so far. I'll continue to investigate over the next few weeks before deciding - although the chances of my constituency returning anything other than Conservative is pretty slim:

 

[Real Hero]

The idea that Theresa May will promote a fairer society is a sick joke..

Well that depends how you define fair. Some people will think it is fair for families to starve because they had too many kids and deserve it.

 

[TimmmV]

What is it then in young people, who out of everyone probably have more spare time than anyone else? Sure, the video games jab was for effect because we are on GAF, but the real reasons will still be rather depressing. From going out with friends, to what is probably most rampant, just not caring about politics or not having been instilled with the values of money, responsibility, both socially and economically and caring about their futures. Aka, it's for older people/parents to vote. Which as we often see, usually leads younger generations to despair when the older generations organise themselves like an army and go out and vote rain or shine every single year (and often for selfish/right-leaning or insular parties/decisions ~ Brexit).

Young people need to go out in record highs to combat any perceived voting from older generations they don't like. Hence, we need to combat apathy and laziness, both from "I'm not voting to protest" and "I'm not voting because I don't care/voting was yesterday, ah well".

The bolded will be partially true sure, but there are other reasons for apathy

- Parties being 'more or less the same' (less true now probably, but I heard this as a teenager when Blair was in charge)
- Feeling like young people get ignored, so why waste your time voting? (Yes, this is self fulfilling, but there is a logic there that isn't necessarily stupid)
- The notion of safe seats and meaningless votes

Young people have legitimate reasons to feel left behind by modern politics, and while the rejection of it (by not bothering to vote) is something that just makes things worse, I think its down to more complicated reasons than just not being bothered to

 

[PJV3]

The idea that Theresa May will promote a fairer society is a sick joke. This is the leader of a party that says there are "complex reasons" why working nurses have to use food banks. Once again working people have to use food banks to survive. This is the United Kingdom in 2017. Our politicians and most of our supine media should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

I wonder how many others are having to rely on food banks, but their pride prevents them from admitting they use them.

If you can square that kind of stuff and still vote Tory you deserve the squalid even more selfish country that's incoming.

I think the idea of a fair society has shifted from stopping child poverty to people having a new iPhone twice a year.

 

[Spaghetti]

I... can understand the rigged system comments. The knives have been out since day one, and all things aside, we know the majority of the press in this country are either pro-right wing or at least pro-status quo.

Corbyn has definitely made his own political noose since becoming leader, but I remember very early on you could see transparent attempts to get a smear job going. "Nod in my name" headline being an example.

 

[*Splinter]

Who is the alternative that would have enabled them to win? I just don't see the point of continuing to focus on the failings of Corbyn and pining for some non-existant perfect leader when every effort should be on getting as many non-Tory MPs into power as possible. Continuing to push the "boo hoo Corbyn is bad he can never win" narrative is just a sell-fulfilling prophecy at this point.

That might have been a self-fulfilling prophecy if we were having this conversation a year ago, but at this point his loss is all but set in stone.

The sooner he goes the sooner someone else gets a go, and they couldn't exactly do any worse.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

dude i appreciate you being a vocal lib dem supporter, but your triad against labour is only serving to sweep up labour votes, further dividing the left and resulting in a larger Tory majority.

if that's your aim then well done.

Corbyn is the one who is dividing, you'd have to be a milquetoast fantasist to believe that shutting up and letting him get on with it will make anything better.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

That might have been a self-fulfilling prophecy if we were having this conversation a year ago, but at this point his loss is all but set in stone.

The sooner he goes the sooner someone else gets a go, and they couldn't exactly do any worse.

I had this conversation with you a year ago.

Have you suggested anyone yet?

 

[Maledict]

The bolded will be partially true sure, but there are other reasons for apathy

- Parties being 'more or less the same' (less true now probably, but I heard this as a teenager when Blair was in charge)
- Feeling like young people get ignored, so why waste your time voting? (Yes, this is self fulfilling, but there is a logic there that isn't necessarily stupid)
- The notion of safe seats and meaningless votes

Young people have legitimate reasons to feel left behind by modern politics, and while the rejection of it (by not bothering to vote) is something that just makes things worse, I think its down to more complicated reasons than just not being bothered to

Meh. I've been following politics for decades, and as a former young activist I'm tired of coming up with excuses why young people don't vote. The sheer truth of the matter is we're lazy and don't think it matters. We get quickly outraged at something we don't like, but forget about it a week later. We could radically reshape the country if we all voted, but we never do.

Old people have all the examples above. And yet they still vote. And you can guarantee that the twenty year olds who aren't voting now will be voting in 40 years time. It's the curse of democracy - the people who have to live with big decisions the longest are the ones least interested in doing anything about it.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

dude i appreciate you being a vocal lib dem supporter, but your triad against labour is only serving to sweep up labour votes, further dividing the left and resulting in a larger Tory majority.

if that's your aim then well done.

Actually, we're the ones with a real aim of taking seats off the Tories in this election - Lewes, Eastbourne, St Ives...

I find Huw_Dawson a bit rich on occasion but he's not far of the mark on this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ggressive-populist-poll-ratings-a7517351.html

Yeah, I didn't just make that up to sound nasty. It is out of his playbook - indeed, to copy Trump is Corbyn's best shot.

FWIW I am a LD activist and will stick up for my lot - and that does obviously get me flak! - but I do try my best to not be an arse. I stick up for my views and listen to the views of everyone else.

I assume he is referring to the lib dems etc who are trying to promise Brexit might be stopped which is a lie.

Not a lie, and we don't want to stop Brexit. We want to stop leaving the Single Market, which CAN be done, and we want people to vote on the final deal, which CAN be done!

Unless we won a plurality of votes, it would not be right for us to turn around and cancel the negotiations - a "Hard Remain", if you will. A referendum on the final deal with an option for the people to decide to Remain would be what I'd call a "Soft Remain"!

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Actually, we're the ones with a real aim of taking seats off the Tories in this election - Lewes, Eastbourne, St Ives...

(To get back into a coalition and basically be Tories again WOW WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT)

 

[Audioboxer]

The bolded will be partially true sure, but there are other reasons for apathy

- Parties being 'more or less the same' (less true now probably, but I heard this as a teenager when Blair was in charge)
- Feeling like young people get ignored, so why waste your time voting? (Yes, this is self fulfilling, but there is a logic there that isn't necessarily stupid)
- The notion of safe seats and meaningless votes

Young people have legitimate reasons to feel left behind by modern politics, and while the rejection of it (by not bothering to vote) is something that just makes things worse, I think its down to more complicated reasons than just not being bothered to

Fair points, especially on feeling rejected. It's why Labour/Lib-Dems should be out front about supporting/chasing youth. One area where the SNP has excelled, hence the figures for youth SNP/independence support in Scotland.

But ultimately, yeah, even if the parties do seem alike you need to use your vote and pick the best of the bunch. If you'd like to argue no point, you have to at least accept no vote = 51% in favour of your opposition. A vote, 49% in favour of your opposition. The tiniest of margins of favourability, but times that by the millions of people like yourself who decide "nothing worth voting for" and that translates into a lot more than 1~2% "worth".

As much as voting is an individual affair, it's a collective responsibility and a collective result. At times majorities can be stopped on the slimmest of margins, for example.

 

[Hazzuh]

Interesting:

Scottish Labour now claiming they are ahead of the SNP or within a single percentage point in seven Westminster seats across Scotland.

Seats are: East Lothian, Coatbridge, Chryston & Bellshill, Lanark & Hamilton East, Midlothian,

/ Airdrie & Shotts, Glasgow South West; Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath

Probably a sign that the unionist vote is shifting to support the appropriate candidates in each constituency? Seems to mainly be favouring the Tories but I guess it wouldn't shock me if it benefits Labour too.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

(To get back into a coalition and basically be Tories again WOW WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT)

We have ruled out going into a coalition, as you probably well know.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

We have ruled out going into a coalition, as you probably well know.

You also ruled out raising tuition fees

Oops

 

[*Splinter]

I had this conversation with you a year ago.

Have you suggested anyone yet?

A year ago I still supported Corbyn.

At this point I would suggest *literally anyone*. (After this election, obviously).

 

[Lego Boss]

Shy Tories too

In the polling both

"Those Labour policies... pretty good and they align with my thoughts, but.... Everyone including the media says Corbyn is a terrible leader, so that is HUGE. I can't be seen voting for such a terrible leader, like that Ed Bacon Sandwich guy too. Also, I do recall hearing that those immigrants and poor people are constantly fucking putting us in debt and messing up the NHS. That's going to hurt my bank account and those people expect me to pay for all their shit? Right, Tory it is.".

But yeah, it's not just about Corbyn. Quite a lot of complexities why people who would ideally vote Labour keep going Tory. Especially the working-class/poor voters who seem to genuinely believe it's in their best interests to vote blue.

The thing with the bacon eating was unfortunate but if you can't see past that then you shouldn't be able to vote.

The problem with JC is much deeper than that. He doesn't like ANYTHING. Royal familiy, check, EU check, NATO, check. He would have 'discussions' with Russia though, before they rolled their tanks into Ukraine and Lithuania.

He is so militant that he doesn't even know what solidarity is. You can't vote for someone who is so blind that he would rather fracture the country's only viable opposition party because 'principles'. Politics isn't (always) about principles, but about what is possible and he is quite possibly going to lead Labour to their most monumental defeat in living history.

Well done JC. It doesn't mean that I'll vote Tory though. I'd rather (and will) spoil my ballot paper before that happens.

Now, if we all did that . . . .

 

[Real Hero]

You also ruled out raising tuition fees

Oops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDjRZ30SNo

 

[*Splinter]

(To get back into a coalition and basically be Tories again WOW WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT)

You also ruled out raising tuition fees

Oops

Can we not have a repeat of yesterday? This endless snark and childish barbs do not invite conversation.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

A year ago I still supported Corbyn.

At this point I would suggest *literally anyone*. (After this election, obviously).

Like hell you did, I explicitly remember arguing with you and cabot about this in Discord!

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Can we not have a repeat of yesterday? This endless snark and childish barbs do not invite conversation.

I'd like this too, as we ran this entire gamut yesterday.

But hey, we ruled out going into coalition. If folks want to shout "CROOKED LIB DEMS!" then they can do so, it doesn't change the truth.

 

[hodgy100]

Corbyn is the one who is dividing, you'd have to be a milquetoast fantasist to believe that shutting up and letting him get on with it will make anything better.

Actually, we're the ones with a real aim of taking seats off the Tories in this election - Lewes, Eastbourne, St Ives...



Yeah, I didn't just make that up to sound nasty. It is out of his playbook - indeed, to copy Trump is Corbyn's best shot.

FWIW I am a LD activist and will stick up for my lot - and that does obviously get me flak! - but I do try my best to not be an arse. I stick up for my views and listen to the views of everyone else.



Not a lie, and we don't want to stop Brexit. We want to stop leaving the Single Market, which CAN be done, and we want people to vote on the final deal, which CAN be done!

Unless we won a plurality of votes, it would not be right for us to turn around and cancel the negotiations - a "Hard Remain", if you will. A referendum on the final deal with an option for the people to decide to Remain would be what I'd call a "Soft Remain"!

I dont think you are an arse I understand why people are frustrated with labour
I just want everyone that isn't tory to rip into the tories instead of fighting amongst each other.

I'm scared of the future :/

 

[Hazzuh]

.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

i dont think you are an arse i understand why people are frustrated with labour
I jsut want everyone that isnt tory to rip into the tories instead of fighting amongst eachother.

im scared of the future :/

It's one of those weird things about Labour's campaign strategy - they attacked us a lot in 2015, when they should have attacked the Tories if they wanted to win.

We attack both sides, but we have to as the third party.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

i dont think you are an arse i understand why people are frustrated with labour
I jsut want everyone that isnt tory to rip into the tories instead of fighting amongst eachother.

im scared of the future :/

I understand this too, but it's a fact of history that the only way to deal with someone like Corbyn is to crush him and his cult from the inside. The only thing worse than the outcome of this election is the outcome of the next one he leads us into.

 

[Audioboxer]

The thing with the bacon eating was unfortunate but if you can't see past that then you shouldn't be able to vote.

The problem with JC is much deeper than that. He doesn't like ANYTHING. Royal familiy, check, EU check, NATO, check. He would have 'discussions' with Russia though, before they rolled their tanks into Ukraine and Lithuania.

He is so militant that he doesn't even know what solidarity is. You can't vote for someone who is so blind that he would rather fracture the country's only viable opposition party because 'principles'. Politics isn't (always) about principles, but about what is possible and he is quite possibly going to lead Labour to their most monumental defeat in living history.

Well done JC. It doesn't mean that I'll vote Tory though. I'd rather (and will) spoil my ballot paper before that happens.

Now, if we all did that . . . .

Don't spoil your ballot paper, vote for the next party you favour, whether Lib Dems or Greens or independent. Others will think like you and that might help in its own small way. Imagine being the greens and seeing your vote share slowly increase. It inspires. The SNP started on hardly any votes and had to give it time to take off. That doesn't always happen and it can be incredibly hard to break into what is really a two party system, but most of us will be alive for the next 50-60 years and this is just one election of many to come.

If you're purposely going to just draw a dick on the ballot paper you may as well just stay home. I mean, I know you're not drawing a dick, at least I hope not, but it's the same effect if that's your goal to chuck the vote.

While it is likely you'll be in an area that should vote Labour to oppose the Tories, some of England is best to actually vote Lib Dems http://www.tactical2017.com

 

[PJV3]

The thing with tuition fees is the libdems took a righteous kicking for it, we need to move on at some point. The same with errors made by the labour party, there are going to be fuck ups and bad decisions when you actually run things.

 

[hodgy100]

I understand this too, but it's a fact of history that the only way to deal with someone like Corbyn is to crush him and his cult from the inside.

i dont hate corbyn, I absolutely detest the people hes surrounded himself with though.

Abbot and Mcdonnell to name a couple. I can't stomach them. But i feel like that has been out of necessity when the rest of the party did their silly coup.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I understand this too, but it's a fact of history that the only way to deal with someone like Corbyn is to crush him and his cult from the inside.

So this grand strategy is to absolutely ensure he has no chance at leading by contributing towards the narrative that will result in a massive Tory majority which, among all the shit their usual policies will bring, will also allow them to manage the one chance we have at the Brexit negotiations, and then hope that in the next five years Labour find a new Labour leader than will turn it all around.
Great plan. Can't wait to see how that one turns out!

 

[Ghost]

The thing with the bacon eating was unfortunate but if you can't see past that then you shouldn't be able to vote.

The problem with JC is much deeper than that. He doesn't like ANYTHING. Royal familiy, check, EU check, NATO, check. He would have 'discussions' with Russia though, before they rolled their tanks into Ukraine and Lithuania.

He is so militant that he doesn't even know what solidarity is. You can't vote for someone who is so blind that he would rather fracture the country's only viable opposition party because 'principles'. Politics isn't (always) about principles, but about what is possible and he is quite possibly going to lead Labour to their most monumental defeat in living history.

Well done JC. It doesn't mean that I'll vote Tory though. I'd rather (and will) spoil my ballot paper before that happens.

Now, if we all did that . . . .

I can see what you're saying but I find it sad that even someone like you who can see through the press smear would not vote for Corbyn based on his opinions (none of those things you posted are labour policies, he's even committed to nuclear power and Trident, two other things the media accuse him of plotting to get rid of), It's important that politicians are judged by the policies they want to enact not every opinion they've ever voiced because otherwise the only 'good' leaders we'll ever get will be the ones insidious enough to never give a straight answer to anything (See May).

I understand why most people take the position of 'I will never vote for him' (they don't read past the headlines), I can't understand at all why someone who understands the nuance would take a position so absolute.

 

[Burai]

The thing with tuition fees is the libdems took a righteous kicking for it, we need to move on at some point. The same with errors made by the labour party, there are going to be fuck ups and bad decisions when you actually run things.

Yup. It's infuriating reading and hearing that "If I vote Lib Dem, I might as well vote Tory." Like nothing that's happened to this country since 2015 has been as bad and destructive as the Lib Dems rowing back on tuition fees.

 

[Lego Boss]

Don't spoil your ballot paper, vote for the next party you favour, whether Lib Dems or Greens or independent. Others will think like you and that might help in its own small way. Imagine being the greens and seeing your vote share slowly increase. It inspires. The SNP started on hardly any votes and had to give it time to take off. That doesn't always happen and it can be incredibly hard to break into what is really a two party system, but most of us will be alive for the next 50-60 years and this is just one election of many to come.

If you're purposely going to just draw a dick on the ballot paper you may as well just stay home. I mean, I know you're not drawing a dick, at least I hope not, but it's the same effect if that's your goal to chuck the vote.

While it is likely you'll be in an area that should vote Labour to oppose the Tories, some of England is best to actually vote Lib Dems http://www.tactical2017.com

Yes, I agrere with you up to a point, and if there is a green candidate, I will vote for them. I can't vote labour this time and I won't vote LD after what they did before, however, you havee to remember that spoiled votes ARE counted and it is one of the few acts of civil disobedience open (which are legal).

Just FYI I voted Green in the local for the second time running. And yes, you're right, there can only be a ground swell if there are people - like me - who vote for them.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

His whole "I don't play by their rules" speech made me think of Trump more than anything else, but at least it gave us this gem:

The cringe

 

[Ghost]

The problem with JC is much deeper than that. He doesn't like ANYTHING. Royal familiy, check, EU check, NATO, check. He would have 'discussions' with Russia though, before they rolled their tanks into Ukraine and Lithuania.

Yes, I agrere with you up to a point, and if there is a green candidate, I will vote for them. I can't vote labour this time and I won't vote LD after what they did before, however, you havee to remember that spoiled votes ARE counted and it is one of the few acts of civil disobedience open (which are legal).

Just FYI I voted Green in the local for the second time running. And yes, you're right, there can only be a ground swell if there are people - like me - who vote for them.

...so you voted Green, you know they are anti-royals and want the UK out of Nato right?