The USA without the religion and gun rights stuff would be a good comparison IMO
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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The USA without the religion and gun rights stuff would be a good comparison IMO
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Vince Cable has a long history as being a prominent Keynesian. He's a former Labour Party shadow treasury bod who was more or less forced out of the party over his views on Europe.
The more I see people talk about politics in the U.K. The more abundant it is that even otherwise intelligent people don't have a clue what they're talking about.
Cable is known for being a politician but he's actually an academic and practical economist, who has always favoured social democratic policy.
Audioboxer
Member
A quick scan of that and the Tories are shredding Labour across the rUK. Even piping it in Scotland now (over Labour), but thankfully the SNP are still coming out ahead by a decent margin.
Wales beginning to flip to the Tories is mental as well, even after their Brexit blunder. Cmon Wales.
Yeah. The way the Tories/May are behaving is so mini-America. The American political campaigns are horrendous and we're inching closer to copying them.
PJV3
Member
Somehow it's now the Theresa May brexit election, I don't know if it's an actual permanent shift towards the Conservative party itself or not.
Provocative Welsh thought.
We all agree the area has significant issues - it's why so much EU funding goes to them. Unemployment, lack of prospects, etc etc.
Wales has been voting as a rock solid labour block for decades. It's been one of labours strongest areas in the country.
After all that time, with the issues still not being solved and so many outstanding problems, maybe people just feel they have nothing to lose and to give the other side a shot? Especially when labour is seen as so wildly incompetent, out of touch with their values and issues, and there's a whole bunch of young voters who didn't experience Thatcher now voting?
We all agree the area has significant issues - it's why so much EU funding goes to them. Unemployment, lack of prospects, etc etc.
Wales has been voting as a rock solid labour block for decades. It's been one of labours strongest areas in the country.
After all that time, with the issues still not being solved and so many outstanding problems, maybe people just feel they have nothing to lose and to give the other side a shot? Especially when labour is seen as so wildly incompetent, out of touch with their values and issues, and there's a whole bunch of young voters who didn't experience Thatcher now voting?
Royal_Phalanx
Member
America has hope of pivoting to a better direction in 4 years though. I think we'll all be much older (30's-40's) and jaded assuming most of us are 20 somethings right now, by the time that has a chance of happening here in the UK. This kind of despair is why I've talked of emigrating in the past (I'm aware for most people they can't make it happen, as you noted before, especially now with no free movement to the EU cutting off some options, but I'll be damned if I don't at least give it a good go).
That kind of talk from me is more due to hopelessness for the future than anything else (and well, wanting a drastic change in my life in general). It's hard to find the positives these days. I vote consistently to try and shape things in my preferred direction, yet the nature of FPTP makes it all so....futile as a left liberal leaning voter.
Spuck-uk
Banned
The religion is there under the surface. Farron is pretty quiet about it these days, but May has talked about it. It's still (correctly) unwise to be running for leader of the country while wearing religious biases on your sleeve openly.
Small mercies.
Digital Economy bill has passed
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1371132
(Thread plug but I see it as a good thing)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1371132
(Thread plug but I see it as a good thing)
PJV3
Member
They will end up disappointed like the rust belt will in a few years, but they're welcome to try it.
With all the doom and gloom, don't forget we are living in one of the best periods of human history - in terms of war, healthcare, hunger. There is still a lot to be grateful for. It can't be taken for granted, and it could be unstable, but appreciate that we are there.
Despite doing a lot of damage, no bad government can undo technological progress. (Hopefully)
Despite doing a lot of damage, no bad government can undo technological progress. (Hopefully)
Audioboxer
Member
You'd maybe expect Plaid Cymru to see further boosts if the goal was to try something new. Keep in mind we've had the Conservatives in power for a while now, so if there is unhappy Welsh people they're voting for the status quo by... switching to the Tories? More of the same?
You need Labour to be in control to well, have proper control over the UK.
The American people as a collective are far more hostile and at war than the British people, and the same goes for their political parties. As much as we're all discussing things in this one topic, American politics is a non-stop stream of noise on GAF, on the internet and basically everywhere. We're not quite at that level in the UK yet, and we don't really want to go there. The Tories and May are dragging us that way though, from MSM control to political campaigns being fought on outright rhetoric, name-calling and othering and everything else.
That is not to lay blame on any citizens, unfairly/without cause, but to say the political warfare over there is way worse than it is here. Add to that the shoddy state of American healthcare and just how unforgiving and uncaring the society can be, often politically, but by many citizens as well (I've got mine, fuck you), and yeah, it's bleak here but over there it's something else entirely. Then you can add the guns problem, political violence and everything else to the mix (maybe religious fundamentalism and the constant battles to keep church/state-separated as the evangelicals fight for political power ~ To which the aim is often to rollback social progress around LGBT/womens rights). It's just a different kettle completely over there.
Which is why many of us are rampantly trying to protect the NHS and also encourage British people to stop being so god damn selfish, ignorant and spiteful of everyone around them perceived to be lower on the foodchain. Or else we will end up as a mini-America, with some sort of privatised NHS. Yet another country fueled by the "I've got mine, fuck everyone else" mantra.
I also think this is one reason many Brits utterly fail to engage with Americans on GAF when it comes to discussing American politics. We just don't really get it and/or as we don't live there don't know quite how bad it can be. We're used to still largely sitting down as Labour/Conservative voters and trying to debate. Over there it's becoming more apparent some would rather point a fist the second they catch wind of a political opponent (even at their own families). Not judging, just saying. As much as there is a lot of Tory hate on GAF, you don't quite get that level of discourse where the answer is to outright attack anyone who is a Tory voter. Not unless they give you enough ammo that they truly aren't a decent person. Polite British way? Possibly, but I just don't quite think we've gone full American yet. America is largely in parts trying to escape the American way, Britain is largely in parts trying to career into the American way. Irony much? We should be looking and learning hard from a lot of what our American brothers and sisters say about some of the shit that is broken over there.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Oh boy do I agree with you on that...
Jezbollah
Member
You're not wrong. I watched "Judgement In Nuremberg" last night. Brought a few things into perspective..
Spuck-uk
Banned
Eh, look at the backpedalling on climate change research in the US, the erosion of civil rights all over the first world. Nothing is truly safe.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Yep, I have watched a documentary on the war in South Sudan which really puts things into perspective. We still live in a peaceful, well off country amongst many in our continent we all share (unfortunately we are cutting ourselves off from it right now) whilst most people around the world would sell their kidneys to go live here in western Europe. It's hard to disconnect yourself from politics (especially now) but it's definitely good for your wellbeing to take comfort in the small things. I really do struggle with the wellbeing aspect of my life, so easier said than done.
Real talk, are people in here comparing May pre-vetting questions at a campaign launch to Erdogan's Turkey?
Jesus Christ, go outside or something. Erdogan plotted a fake coup that he used to purge the judicial system of rivals, and people were executed on the fucking Euphrates Bridge for conspiring to overthrow him.
He then used the momentum behind this to put a new constitution together that gives him substantially more power.
Yes, some aide for May vetting questions (when she has done unscripted interviews all week, e.g. Marr on Sunday) is the same as that.
Christ.
Jesus Christ, go outside or something. Erdogan plotted a fake coup that he used to purge the judicial system of rivals, and people were executed on the fucking Euphrates Bridge for conspiring to overthrow him.
He then used the momentum behind this to put a new constitution together that gives him substantially more power.
Yes, some aide for May vetting questions (when she has done unscripted interviews all week, e.g. Marr on Sunday) is the same as that.
Christ.
Another episode of the Guardian's Anywhere but Westminster is here. A quick scoot through Lancashire either side of the local elections last week. Depressing AF to be honest, but again, I think hearing people's unvarnished opinions is really valuable.
Still no posts... I think we've forgotten how to react when we hear good news
It sounds good anyway. My first instinct is still "I must be misunderstanding something"
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Still no posts... I think we've forgotten how to react when we hear good news
It sounds good anyway. My first instinct is still "I must be misunderstanding something"
I think that bill includes the porn blocking? Not all good news there.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
From a fellow Welshie, I can see this happening. It's probably why a majority of Welsh voted to leave. Maintaining the status quo hasn't seen jobs or investment hit the valleys areas (although as people point out, it did lead to a new link road, extension on the community centre etc...) so why not vote for 'the other side' (or at the very least, someone different).
Audioboxer
Member
As I said above though, the Conservatives ARE the status quo? Wales isn't independent, so like Scotland, it's been governed by the Tories for a while now (although Scotland has fought for far more devolved power). The Welsh swapping over to Tories ARE asking for more of the same, not trying something different. The only difference is what you put on your voting slip, but the end result is still the Tories, which is the same for the UK.
If Wales wanted something different they'd be trying to kick England up the arse to vote in favour of Labour to oust the constant Tory reign, OR they'd decide enough is enough and go Plaid Cymru like Scotland decided SNP.
RedSparrows
Member
I like these videos. Obviously John Harris has a left-wing stance, but they're good to watch as sorta snapshots of feeling. The Tory councillor guy was interesting, in how he basically said nothing to Harris about what he'd do, but evidently his message worked.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ion-and-labour-still-cant-break-through-video
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ion-and-labour-still-cant-break-through-video
Spaced Harrier
Member
Should I put it on the side of a bus?
That's not how people vote though. The ability of any one person to impact an election in their own area is tiny, the concept they could change election results elsewhere is just not viable.
Also the change does make sense in one way. Governments funnel money to their constituencies. It's why local government in the shires didn't see big cuts. By constantly voting labour when the backdrop is a national conservative government, they don't exactly make the tories eager to throw money that way. By showing they can vote conservative, and that it is worth fighting for Welsh votes instead of taking them for granted for labour, they can get a bit of love from the tories?
Again, just being provocative here.
May confirms the Tories are going to bring back Fox hunting:
Sensational. Theresa May confirms she hopes to bring back fox hunting. "I've always been in favour of hunting & we maintain out commitment"
Sensational. Theresa May confirms she hopes to bring back fox hunting. "I've always been in favour of hunting & we maintain out commitment"
Not surprised considering how bad May is at answering questions. Her philosophy seems to be agree with me or I'm not talking to you. Politics is a joke. Laura Kuenssberg can be really annoying and stupid with her silly lines but every now and then she does some good prodding that nobody else gets to do except maybe Andrew Marr and Corbyn but the latter is just knocked down by one liners which gets a good laugh from the benches then moving on, sucks.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Here is a prime example of why people like me don't want to bother voting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39861230/will-uk-definitely-leave-the-eu
This applies to all leaders/MP's. The inability to answer a simple question. Infuriating.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39861230/will-uk-definitely-leave-the-eu
This applies to all leaders/MP's. The inability to answer a simple question. Infuriating.....
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
God I hate John Harris, The Guardian's bigotry correspondent
When everyone is voting Tory and there's still only a limited pot of money, it'll still be the shires which is getting the money, because that's the historic base of the party and where the grandees and hotshots get the safest seats.
Who votes in this free vote, the landslide of Tory MPs which means it passes?
Don't say that she might fake a coup
Anywhere but Westminster is always a good watch. This one was particularly heartbreaking when I wasn't expecting it to be.
Although I did a double take at the bloke who was voting Tory over Labour because of Corbyn when his main issue was cuts - from the Tory government. Like, he even acknowledged it as a lapse of logic. It's nice that he's going to vote regardless but... spoil your ballot or something mate.
Rolled my eyes a bit at the Tory candidate pledging to reverse cuts too. Did the standard "reduce waste" line, which means basically fuck all.
that's because she's trying to get a soundbite out of him and he's not having it.
she basically wants the Labour version of "no deal is better than a bad deal"
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
In response to:
Basically all his videos are going around and finding white racists with accents and claiming they're "the working class" who have legitimate concerns about immigration and blah
Audioboxer
Member
Well, what I took a challenge with was the suggestion that Welsh people could think they're trying something different? What they are doing like it or not if they switch to Conservative is voting for the status quo (and possibly furthering a chance of a large Tory majority). That is what it is. The Conservative government is going to continue treating Wales how it has been for years gone by. What you suggested about a Welsh voter feeling "powerless" as an individual may be to do with what I'll say below.
Labour aren't necessarily taking Welsh votes for granted at all, Wales is just getting a taste of what it means to be part of a Union where the biggest brother will win the vote for the whole of the UK IF enough people in that "big brother" decide they are voting one way. There comes a point where you can add majority Labour votes in Scotland/Wales and NI together and it may do jack shit overall because England decides to heavily go Tory. It can often be the difference between a majority or not (if Wales/Scotland and NI give Labour votes), but you're still getting a Tory government and not Labour.
There's a lot of nuance to discussing the system, and many rightfully attack FPTP. Scotland has largely chased after devolved power and with that power decided as many internal matters as possible will be dealt with by a Scottish government/party. Wales isn't quite there, but who is to say over time they can't be? If anything that is the risk the UK-wide government runs if it focusses too much on one country within the Union and/or maybe just the fact the people in the smaller countries don't like the government the larger keeps putting into power.
Ironically the EU helped Wales a lot, which is why the Brexit vote was a bit of a shock. Even if Wales had tipped to remain, England would have managed to take Scotland, NI AND Wales out of the EU by itself. That is what it means to be part of a Union, but from there we can start to argue back and forth about pros and cons of that.
Yeah, that can fuck right off if it's reported 100% correctly.
I've seen people making the argument about Liverpool that as a city they would do themselves a favour by voting Tory once in a while. The logic being that Liverpool always voting Labour means that Labour know they can ignore it and still win, and the Tories ignore it knowing any effort spent there is wasted. You could probably apply that logic to the really safe Labour seats in Wales too
I can broadly see his point tbf, although saying that Labour ignore Liverpool isn't fair
PJV3
Member
She knows it's likely to cause a stink with the labour base, they will edit it to make it look like he's rubbing it in.
fucking hell this was sad, it's like a tragedy everyone see's but goes along with anyway
On paper maybe. In the real world a straight answer to that question could potentially affect millions of votes (assuming voters give a monkeys what Jezza has to say about anything!). I may not like the game any more than you do, but wishing the rules were different doesn't change them (sadly).
Jezbollah
Member
Interesting with regards to the Tories strategy with the Press:
https://twitter.com/RobNisbetSky/status/861919705996644354
EDIT:
https://twitter.com/BBCEleanorG/status/861923227190341632
https://twitter.com/RobNisbetSky/status/861919705996644354
EDIT:
https://twitter.com/BBCEleanorG/status/861923227190341632
Audioboxer
Member
Almost one and the same. Pick the journos they like/know what to expect from and keep the ones likely to throw hard balls/snide their way silent. Or at least minimise the chances of the later.
Someone better tell Corbyn it's normal practice, he's making mistakes again.
It really isn't the same at all. One is basically normal practice, the other is controlling as hell.
Huw_Dawson
Member
A close ally of Len McCluskey has been selected to fight Liverpool Walton. It is the safest seat in the country. Amongst his opponents he will be fighting Liverpool Lib Dem Chair Kris Brown, a former Labour councillor for Edmonton who moved north and defected to the Lib Dems.
Unsure how much my old local party will be able to target the city seats with Southport so marginal. But personally I'd love to see a Corbynite lose the safest Labour seat in the country to a thoroughly decent chap like Kris Won't happen in a million years, but it'd be nice.
Unsure how much my old local party will be able to target the city seats with Southport so marginal. But personally I'd love to see a Corbynite lose the safest Labour seat in the country to a thoroughly decent chap like Kris Won't happen in a million years, but it'd be nice.
Roberto Larcos
Member
If they're still requiring to know the question in advance, it's still high-level scumminess. Allows for easy deflection of that question, then ensure that journalist doesn't get to ask questions again.
Kotetsu534
Member
Desperately sad piece on south Wales in the Guardian today from Aditya Chakrabortty. I've read my Robert Putnam (Bowling Alone, Our Kids), Charles Murray (Coming Apart), Jennifer Silva (Working Class Adulthood in An Age of Uncertainty), David Goodhart (The Road to Somewhere), Gary Younge etc. but I'm still moved by these stories. There's first the natural regret for what's been lost, followed by something angrier, more frustrated, at the hopeless ignorance of the elite and successful, and then a sad resignation - nothing's likely to change for the people in these places.
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