Support NeoGAF

[MarshMellow96]

if each soldier had the right equipment

All political 'the war was wrong' type stuff aside..

I know this is OT but, do we have equipment that can detect explosive elements in everyday objects yet?

Why aren't the Taliban complaining about not having the right equipment?

Personally, I think the same people who're complaining about sending troops to their deaths are the ones that will think it's unethical when we're UAV rocketing blips on a screen...

Maybe I'm just insensitive :lol

 

[gerg]

"Hate" is such a strong word, but I'm concerned his "anthropological global warming is a myth" beliefs are something more than a part of his TV personality.

 

[Walshicus]

Labour would of had Iraq as a non issue, if each soldier had the right equipment, and had better controlled the message - in the early days they controlled the message tightly, once the evidence came back to that we did not have the right resources then the message became tangled and has made it a decision in the election.

Iraq and Afghanistan have probably been two of least costly wars [in terms of the lives of our troops] this country has fought in modern times. The public outrage is strong because we don't think Iraq was justified, and we actually care about the tens of thousands of Iraqi dead.

On the "let's just pay the EU less thing" - once again I can't even begin to fathom how you can imagine this to be something that could just be done. That money doesn't just sit in a bank, it gets spent on a variety of public goods, social schemes and regional development projects. It's agreed, it's not much at all, and if you really wanted to cut spending you'd scrap Trident.



I just thought of something quite amusing. The most damning indictment against the government's education policy, that they're letting too many people into universities to create positive statistics... is given credibility through yourself, a Tory. ;D

 

[Dabookerman]

"Hate" is such a strong word, but I'm concerned his "anthropological global warming is a myth" beliefs are something more than a part of his TV personality.

Like myself, I wouldn't take anything he says seriously.

 

[jas0nuk]

The Sunday paper polls, as they arrive

ICM
CON 35 (+2)
LD 31 (+1)
LAB 26 (-2)

YouGov
CON 35 (+1)
LD 28 (nc)
LAB 27 (-2)

OnePoll
CON 32 (+5)
LD 32 (-1)
LAB 23 (nc)

ComRes
CON 34 (-1)
LD 29 (+2)
LAB 28 (+3)

Ipsos MORI
CON 36 (+4)
LD 23 (-9)
LAB 30 (+2)

BPIX
CON 34 (+3)
LD 30 (-2)
LAB 26 (-2)

EDIT: Incorrect YouGov figures fixed.

 

[Zenith]

Labour would of had Iraq as a non issue, if each soldier had the right equipment, and had better controlled the message - in the early days they controlled the message tightly, once the evidence came back to that we did not have the right resources then the message became tangled and has made it a decision in the election.

...

yes, that's why people are angry over Iraq.

 

[BradleyUK]

Why voting UKIP in a General Election is NOT a wasted vote

 

[Walshicus]

Why voting UKIP in a General Election is NOT a wasted vote

Fuck that, I love the EU.

 

[Linkified]

Iraq and Afghanistan have probably been two of least costly wars [in terms of the lives of our troops] this country has fought in modern times. The public outrage is strong because we don't think Iraq was justified, and we actually care about the tens of thousands of Iraqi dead.

On the "let's just pay the EU less thing" - once again I can't even begin to fathom how you can imagine this to be something that could just be done. That money doesn't just sit in a bank, it gets spent on a variety of public goods, social schemes and regional development projects. It's agreed, it's not much at all, and if you really wanted to cut spending you'd scrap Trident.

I just thought of something quite amusing. The most damning indictment against the government's education policy, that they're letting too many people into universities to create positive statistics... is given credibility through yourself, a Tory. ;D

We can't scrap Trident, and the money we pay in EU we could use that money in the interest of creating more pro-active regional devlopment funds, paying off debt. Look EU can't support any more countries going bankrupt. All the European Union needs to be is a treaty stating free movement of goods and that is all - it doesn't need to be apolitical union, it shouldn't do a very un free market apporach to farmers by restricting them on the amount they produce, the fisheries policy can't be enforced.

 

[RedShift]

Why voting UKIP in a General Election is NOT a wasted vote

Thats funny, my local UKIP candidate sent me a leaflet saying that voting UKIP would be a wasted vote and I should vote for my local Labour candidate who is happy to go against the party line and be euroskeptic.

 

[Walshicus]

We can't scrap Trident,

Yes, we can.

and the money we pay in EU we could use that money in the interest of creating more pro-active regional devlopment funds, paying off debt.

No, it can't.

Look EU can't support any more countries going bankrupt. All the European Union needs to be is a treaty stating free movement of goods and that is all - it doesn't need to be apolitical union, it shouldn't do a very un free market apporach to farmers by restricting them on the amount they produce, the fisheries policy can't be enforced.

We've done this before, you're wrong, to fully exploit the benefits of free trade and no barriers to entry you need a political framework, and the member states have a strong vested interest in foreign policy and judicial integration.

 

[Subliminal]

Ipsos MORI
CON 36 (+4)
LD 23 (-9)
LAB 30 (+2)

a nine point decrease?! HOW!!??

 

[jas0nuk]

a nine point decrease?! HOW!!??

It's an outlier compared to the other 4 polls today. But there is an obvious decrease in the Lib Dem position generally.

 

[freethought]

We can't scrap Trident, and the money we pay in EU we could use that money in the interest of creating more pro-active regional devlopment funds, paying off debt. Look EU can't support any more countries going bankrupt. All the European Union needs to be is a treaty stating free movement of goods and that is all - it doesn't need to be apolitical union, it shouldn't do a very un free market apporach to farmers by restricting them on the amount they produce, the fisheries policy can't be enforced.

When are you going to figure out that an uninformed opinion is not equal to an informed one.

 

[Shanadeus]

The Sunday paper polls, as they arrive

ICM
CON 35 (+2)
LD 31 (+1)
LAB 26 (-2)

YouGov
CON 35 (+1)
LD 29 (+1)
LAB 27 (-2)

OnePoll
CON 32 (+5)
LD 32 (-1)
LAB 23 (nc)

ComRes
CON 34 (-1)
LD 29 (+2)
LAB 28 (+3)

Ipsos MORI
CON 36 (+4)
LD 23 (-9)
LAB 30 (+2)

BPIX due later.

D:
This better not be related to all the smears.

 

[Souldriver]

The UK could always leave the EU, and aim to go back to a simple free trade organization like the EFTA like they did in the 1960s as an act of rebellion against the EU, only to come back a few years later because the numbers show that the growth of Union members are higher than those of the EFTA, and once back in they could resume trying to restrict the Union into something similar like the EFTA.


All the money the UK's lost by being in the EU. It's a disgrace!

 

[Chinner]

It's an outlier compared to the other 4 polls today. But there is an obvious decrease in the Lib Dem position generally.

yet 3 out of 5 polls show a increase?

 

[DECK'ARD]

 

[jas0nuk]

yet 3 out of 5 polls show a increase?

The decrease is since the "Clegg surge" last week in which they were in first place. The changes shown are compared to the previous poll of that polling company. Unlike the other 4, Ipsos Mori's last poll was ages ago so the change is more dramatic.

 

[Linkified]

Yes, we can.


No, it can't.


We've done this before, you're wrong, to fully exploit the benefits of free trade and no barriers to entry you need a political framework, and the member states have a strong vested interest in foreign policy and judicial integration.

We don't need another level of government on top of our central government. We need keep our seperate foreign policy in case a situation arrives where we feel differently to the rest of Europe. We need a seperated judicial so that we can protect the rights of freedoms of this country.

Have they tried to do anything without a political framework?

 

[Sage00]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVAh1QEZR8g I love it. :lol

 

[Walshicus]

We don't need another level of government on top of our central government.

Yes, we do. See previous explainations as to why fully functioning economic areas require a tier of government to function.

We need keep our seperate foreign policy in case a situation arrives where we feel differently to the rest of Europe.

No, we don't. The fact is that foreign policy is rarely a matter of popular consent, but rather the government acting in the interests of its demos. I can't think of the last time England or the rest of Europe's *people* actually had a substantial foreign policy disagreement. In addition, the fact that our foreign policies are so similar means that any deviation is more than compensated by the increase in effectiveness that our speaking as one brings. What has more impact, the call of two dozen small states or the world's largest economy?

We need a seperated judicial so that we can protect the rights of freedoms of this country.

Funny then how it is the EU which has done the best job of this, while Tory and Labour British [/spit] governments have acted to curtail our freedom...

Have they tried to do anything without a political framework?

Yes, pretty much every other free trade area in the world. And isn't it funny how they all keep trying to match the EU by striving for closer integration and to actually make those free trade areas *work*. Every other free trade area in the world wishes they had the ability to attain the EU's level of integration.

I just love how people like you can't see how much of a huge fucking success the EU is; how it's the greatest Human political achievement as a working, peaceful confederation of twenty-seven [and growing] states with the longest history of conflict. The EU is a triumph.

 

[Souldriver]

We don't need another level of government on top of our central government. We need keep our seperate foreign policy in case a situation arrives where we feel differently to the rest of Europe. We need a seperated judicial so that we can protect the rights of freedoms of this country.

Have they tried to do anything without a political framework?

Funny how the European Court system is specifically established to make sure your fundamental rights and freedoms are protected when your own country infringes on them. But I'm sure those fundamental rights and freedoms are not legitimate in that case, cause somewhere in the UK they were not respected, and the UK has the right to not respect them. Right?

 

[Linkified]

I just love how people like you can't see how much of a huge fucking success the EU is; how it's the greatest Human political achievement as a working, peaceful confederation of twenty-seven [and growing] states with the longest history of conflict. The EU is a triumph.

I think the reason why you like the EU is that your pro-socialist yourself - where you believe in the state. Or at least thats the impression I get.

 

[FabCam]

Funny how the European Court system is specifically established to make sure your fundamental rights and freedoms are protected when your own country infringes on them. But I'm sure those fundamental rights and freedoms are not legitimate in that case, cause somewhere in the UK they were not respected, and the UK has the right to not respect them. Right?

This purpose is hardly aimed at the UK. There's no way any human right infringement would go on in this country. We're far too PC.

 

[Souldriver]

I think the reason why you like the EU is that your pro-socialist yourself - where you believe in the state. Or at least thats the impression I get.

The Union is more of a (neo)liberal project than anything else. It's also really distorted to go out on a limb and say that a government on a high(er) level means socialism.

 

[curls]

FabCam & Linkified - two loonies who always ignore the facts.

 

[FabCam]

FabCam & Linkified - two loonies who always ignore the facts.

Please point me to some "facts" that prove the EU is good for us?

I'm opposed to large scale EU integration because it means my taxes are used to subsidize French farmers.

 

[Parts]

I think the reason why you like the EU is that your pro-socialist yourself - where you believe in the state. Or at least thats the impression I get.

Wow. You actually used the "SOCIALISM" argument. That's just embarassing, man.

 

[avaya]

Please point me to some "facts" that prove the EU is good for us?

I'm opposed to large scale EU integration because it means my taxes are used to subsidize French farmers.

Keep on digging the hole for yourself. Your ignorance is staggering.

 

[curls]

Please point me to some "facts" that prove the EU is good for us?

After reading your input in this thread, why should I bother when you will simply ignore what I and others say.

 

[FabCam]

Keep on digging the hole for yourself. Your ignorance is staggering.

Look man, you're sole argument is "hahaha you suck". Please point to facts or informed opinions. You add nothing to any debate.

There are huge flaws with CAP that you obviously refuse to even acknowledge the existence of.

@Curls: I never dismissed your opinion. Conflicting opinion =/= ignoring them.

 

[Linkified]

Please point me to some "facts" that prove the EU is good for us?

I'm opposed to large scale EU integration because it means my taxes are used to subsidize French farmers.

It gave us some regional development money for certain areas of the country. Thats the best thing we have gained from it.

 

[FabCam]

It give us some regional development money for certain areas of the country. Thats the best thing we have gained from it.

Something that OUR government should do. There's no need for the EU to regulate and subsidize our farmers. CAP has led to mass inefficiency and waste.

 

[Souldriver]

Please point me to some "facts" that prove the EU is good for us?

I'm opposed to large scale EU integration because it means my taxes are used to subsidize French farmers.

What a question. You can't answer that in a sentence or two. And I doubt you would accept any facts anyway.


It's hard to prove to you how things are better in the Union than out of it, because you can always speculate and do "what ifs" in relation to the UK not being part of the Union. However, just about every indicator says that being a member of the Union is, and has been, very beneficial for any nation involved. No, I'm not going to spend my evening finding a bunch of numbers trying to convince you. Do your own research or revel in your ignorance.

However, I'll shortly try to give a starting push in your research. The easiest way to see if the EU is economically beneficial is to see how countries in it fare compared to those out of it. I have a book on European Economics with statistics, but not at hand so I'll have to get back to you with specific numbers. However, the general and obvious trend was that the members of the EEC had a higher yearly economic growth than the members of the EFTA. It's the reason why the majority of the EFTA members, including the UK who had founded the EFTA as a reaction to the EEC, eventually decided it was better to just enter the EEC.

A very quick search only gave me this:

As stated earlier, it is important at this stage to address the question of knowing whether customs unions are preferable to free trade areas. It is clear that in the case of the European experience, customs unions is certainly preferable. In fact, not only did it increase the income of their members, which must be matched against the negative effect for the EFTA, but also those members (UK, Denmark) that moved from the EFTA to the EEC showed an improvement in terms of integration induced growth.

Source
Again, if you don't like this source, I'll give you exact numbers the day after tomorrow, when I can get a hold of the book.

 

[Souldriver]

It gave us some regional development money for certain areas of the country. Thats the best thing we have gained from it.

It's funny how you only look at the exact net streams going from the UK, and those flowing back to the UK to come to your conclusions. As if the EU only consists of the sum of all the contributions made by its members. :lol Can it get any more simplistic? Lordy lord.

 

[Walshicus]

Something that OUR government should do. There's no need for the EU to regulate and subsidize our farmers. CAP has led to mass inefficiency and waste.

Scenario: every EU state decides whether to subsidise their farmers.

1) France subsidises more than Germany.
2) France sells more agricultural products than Germany.
3) Germany retaliates and increases its subsidies.
4) France retaliates and increases its subsidies.
5) Repeat 3.

1) France subsidises more than Germany.
2) France sells more agricultural products than Germany.
3) Germany retaliates and imposes barriers to prevent French agricultural products.
4) France retaliates and imposes barriers to prevent German agricultural products.
5) True free trade between equivalent actors without administrative supervision shows itself to be the bullshit pipedream of idiots it is.

For fucks sake, this stuff, this institution has been made as it is for a reason.

 

[FabCam]

What a question. You can't answer that in a sentence or two. And I doubt you would accept any facts anyway.


It's hard to prove to you how things are better in the Union than out of it, because you can always speculate and do "what ifs" in relation to the UK not being part of the Union. However, just about every indicator says that being a member of the Union is, and has been, very beneficial for any nation involved. No, I'm not going to spend my evening finding a bunch of numbers trying to convince you. Do your own research or revel in your ignorance.

However, I'll shortly try to give a starting push in your research. The easiest way to see if the EU is economically beneficial is to see how countries in it fare compared to those out of it. I have a book on European Economics with statistics, but not at hand so I'll have to get back to you with specific numbers. However, the general and obvious trend was that the members of the EEC had a higher yearly economic growth than the members of the EFTA. It's the reason why the majority of the EFTA members, including the UK who had founded the EFTA as a reaction to the EEC, eventually decided it was better to just enter the EEC.

I'm not wholly against the Union. I acknowledge the fact that free trade and improved foreign policy between members is irreplaceable but there are many huge downfalls for a major contributor member such as ours. Migration is pretty much uncontrollable. People who are not elected by us make decisions about our lifestyle. Inefficiency is rife. etc.

 

[defel]

I hope I speak for others in saying all this EU stuff goes way over my head.

 

[Souldriver]

I'm not wholly against the Union. I acknowledge the fact that free trade and improved foreign policy between members is irreplaceable but there are many huge downfalls for a major contributor member such as ours. Migration is pretty much uncontrollable. People who are not elected by us make decisions about our lifestyle. Inefficiency is rife. etc.

They are.

 

[Linkified]

It's funny how you only look at the exact net streams going from the UK, and those flowing back to the UK to come to your conclusions. As if the EU only consists of the sum of all the contributions made by its members. :lol Can it get any more simplistic? Lordy lord.

Well yeah cause do I only give a crap about the UK - not other states.

 

[Walshicus]

Well yeah cause do I only give a crap about the UK - not other states.

Why stop there? Why should I give a crap about fuckers who live in the North of England?

To clarify; the answer is because we form an area of shared culture and mutualised service provision.

 

[DECK'ARD]

This thread has gone to ruin

 

[Souldriver]

Well yeah cause do I only give a crap about the UK - not other states.

What the hell?!


So you are actually saying that the EU = the sum of all the contributions made by its members? That is the only economic or monetary aspect of the Union? That's what the Union is? :lol You're saying it's a joint money sock under the pillow of the member states?


I don't want to come of as a prick, but come on! :lol

 

[Linkified]

Why stop there? Why should I give a crap about fuckers who live in the North of England?

To clarify; the answer is because we form an area of shared culture and mutualised service provision.

What culture do we share though?

 

[Shanadeus]

I wonder what people who want to leave the EU, and I suppose no other "overstate"-structure, feel about the future of mankind. Are we really gonna remain little petty states limited by arbitrary borders and ethnocentrism while we colonize other planets?

Or is that when you'll give up your national identity and embrace the world government?

 

[travisbickle]

Why stop there? Why should I give a crap about fuckers who live in the North of England?

To clarify; the answer is because we form an area of shared culture and mutualised service provision.

He doesn't give a shit about the people in the North of England, he's voting conservative.

But why should I give a shit about other European countries, the most important country is the one I'm living in though?

Do you have any friends? You come across as the most obnoxious, xenophobic bordering on jingoistic, prat I've ever been in contact with.

 

[Kowak]

As an Italian-Irish-Englishmen I am someone who loves the idea of Europe but I think the EU should only be an economic community and hate that it has its own pmt and court and has taken national sovereignty away from countries on key issues.

It only adds another wasteful level of govt and because most people are so uneducated about it consider it a joke without realising that they make decisions that can impact our lives.

 

[Walshicus]

What culture do we share though?

European culture.

As an Italian-Irish-Englishmen I am someone who loves the idea of Europe but I think the EU should only be an economic community and hate that it has its own pmt and court and has taken national sovereignty away from countries on key issues.

It only adds another wasteful level of govt and because most people are so uneducated about it consider it a joke without realising that they make decisions that can impact our lives.

It hasn't taken anything, it's been GIVEN through the consent of every democratically elected government of every memberstate. European governments have chosen to give up power over a number of policy areas because there is a clear and apparant benefit in doing so. Again, you can't have a working economic community of the sort we enjoy without some kind of political authority; you can't justify that political authority without democratic control [through Parliament] or judicial oversight [through the courts].

 

[Linkified]

This thread has gone to ruin

We are discussing a key issue for voters.

Spoiler

More like shouting over the heads of each other as the pro-EU can't seem to understand why we feel this way, and anti-EU don't understand the sharing of resources to give to other countries