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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
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Fernando Fernandez
Member
You say that and I'd agree if it was an isolated incident but Laura Kuenssberg (the BBC political editor) has been anti Corbyn since even before his win. There's been that Panorama hatchet job, this from Nick Robinson http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/nick-robinson-tackles-anti-corbyn-bias-at-the-bbc/ and then if you look at Lauras tweets this year there's been 30 (often opinionated) on the cabinet shuffle and zero on rail hikes/floods.
I'd expect this from Murdoch but for a broadcast company that's meant to have no bias, it's frustrating - especially as we pay for it!
CyclopsRock
Member
Rail fares and flooding is only partially politics related tbh (they're related to politics in the same way basically everything is related to politics in some way, from schools to car emissions) but the reshuffle is wholly political.
The BBC has a number of political programmes, arranging for an MP to resign on air immediately before PMQ's is an avowedly nakedly political act.
If the BBC don't see an issue with it, why has the blog been pulled?
The BBC might have it's trousers at it's ankles at the minute, bending over hoping for only a minor rodgering off the tories but it's still publicly funded. Kuessenberg has always been unable to hide her political leanings (from giving Tory ministers softballs on Newsnight to her continual pejorative language when reporting on Corbyn), Robinson was a Tory but he tended to walk a straighter line.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35261968
Farage is complaining about the new alcohol guidelines, urging 'mass protest' against them. I don't even know what he is trying to argue.
Farage is complaining about the new alcohol guidelines, urging 'mass protest' against them. I don't even know what he is trying to argue.
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's a pretty bizarre argument for Farage to have with nobody in particular.
Hopefully someone gets a good quote in about how hypocritical it is for him to be demanding absolute UK sovereignty over its own laws and then moaning when the UK government does something he dislikes. Especially when it's just a health board advocating less regular heavy drinking. What's he say to a doctor who complains about the added cost of treating avoidable alcohol-related diseases? Who does he want paying for the NHS support of people who drink too much?
Hopefully someone gets a good quote in about how hypocritical it is for him to be demanding absolute UK sovereignty over its own laws and then moaning when the UK government does something he dislikes. Especially when it's just a health board advocating less regular heavy drinking. What's he say to a doctor who complains about the added cost of treating avoidable alcohol-related diseases? Who does he want paying for the NHS support of people who drink too much?
Graphics Horse
Member
That's not hypocritical at all, nobody is asking to surrender their right to moan.
Jezbollah
Member
Farage is just trying to cater for his demographic of voters.
To be honest I'm not surprised he's gone after this - after the few weeks he's had (the failure to make any impact in the by-election, the tiff with Carswell and his so called "assassination attempt") any chance for him to be getting back on message has got to be a relief to him.
To be honest I'm not surprised he's gone after this - after the few weeks he's had (the failure to make any impact in the by-election, the tiff with Carswell and his so called "assassination attempt") any chance for him to be getting back on message has got to be a relief to him.
Graphics Horse
Member
Is he still leader of UKIP? I kind of lost track of what was happening there.
Nicktendo86
Member
He resigned to himself then refused his resignation so took the resignation back from himself.
How the hell do you fix this much corruption?
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/mobi/hp-sauce
And what in the absolute fuck:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-political-point-scoring-bash-tory-government
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/mobi/hp-sauce
And what in the absolute fuck:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-political-point-scoring-bash-tory-government
If you're interested in reading whatever excused the BBC comes up with for their politics coverage... http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaint/daily_politics_bbc_two/
Huw_Dawson
Member
You know, it is a bit of a stretch to say this is hypocritical, but I think my overall point stands.
Farage moans when the EU does something he doesn't like and argues the British state should have more autonomy.
Farage moans when the UK does something he doesn't like and says that the British state is nannying people.
If the British state is just as susceptible to doing stuff Farage dislikes, what's the argument for saying the UK would be better off without the EU? Wouldn't he agree with, say, Scotland being blocked on minimum alcohol pricing? But they were blocked by the EU - the EU's doing its job.
It's a strange and contradictory argument to make.
CyclopsRock
Member
It really isn't. Thinking a country should define its own laws doesn't mean you need to like those laws. They're basically totally separate.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Except Farage's argument centres just as much on thinking the EU is bad for Britain because of its actions as the moral/legal position of supreme UK sovereignty.
If the EU was totally undeniably whizbang amazing for Britain, there'd be no backing for Farage's position, even though it still apparently compromises UK sovereignty.
And Farage's argument only really works if the UK government really is the best vessel to be trusted with for the citizen's interest. Attacking the state as nannying its citizens makes the UK government look weak - which then begs the question if the UK government really deserves absolute sovereignty.
CyclopsRock
Member
This argument is only valid if you're coming at it from the POV of "This body creates better laws than that body". And sometimes that is what Farage says, but that's not the main crux of it, otherwise he'd be suggesting we outsource our law making to the US congress or something. It's not a coincidence that the body he wants making laws that apply to the UK is the UK legislature in Westminster - it's about local accountability and decisions that affect the UK being made by legislators elected wholly by the UK. That's his key argument, and that doesn't actually have anything to do with the quality of the laws themselves, but rather the extent to which they reflect the will of the public.
It's basically the same argument put forward by those who say our foreign policy should be defined by UN largely irrelevant of what those resolutions are, becuase they think that that's the best venue to decide international interventions, and largely hang their hat on wheter a given action has a UN resolution backing it or not.
Isn't that the Bennite argument about the EU? The whole 'a bad parliament is preferable to a good king, because you can at least get rid of the parliament through democratic means'?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
By the same argument I should secede from the United Kingdom, because the laws I pass will be more reflective of me and the will of the public of the Republic of Crab. It's nonsensetalk. Any political system involves up giving up some autonomy under the law in return for certain benefits, the question is whether we currently think those benefits are sufficient.
CyclopsRock
Member
Sure. That doesn't make Farage a hypocrite for criticising UK legislation though.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No; it was more an aside about the "we should value sovereignty above everything" argument.
CyclopsRock
Member
Indeedy. That said, I'm a firm believer in the idea that the smaller a geographic area, the more chance you are to get laws that the people in that area support (or, rather, less likely to get loads of people who don't). Which isn't an argument for The Kingdon of Crab (you wouldn't be a Republic, come on), but it might be an argument for devolving certain decisions (such as limits of public lewd behaviour or soliciting for prostitutes) down to, say, Crab Borough Council.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Nah, the Republic of Crab is definitely a Republic. I'm a very popular head of state you know, I win 100% of the vote every year on a 100% turn-out; although I admit being both the only contestant and voter helps.
And yes, I agree, but at the same time some laws inevitably become less effective or useful if only small areas apply them - see how Illinois has very tough gun controls but still high gun violence because you can stroll across the border to buy guns in the loosely regulated neighbouring states, or how European countries with high taxes see capital flight abroad because of Ireland.
CyclopsRock
Member
Here it is, the final nail:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...eremy-corbyns-labour-leadership-a3152666.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...eremy-corbyns-labour-leadership-a3152666.html
JonathanEx
Member
Yeah but
And that's what really matters
(yes yes it was a hack)
And that's what really matters
(yes yes it was a hack)
Yeah but
And that's what really matters
(yes yes it was a hack)
Whoever hacked him was tame as fuck. I was really disappointed.
JonathanEx
Member
I don't know, what would you do in that situation? You could be subtle, with following/blocking/real-ish tweets, try and eek out access for as long as possible. Or go with something to grab headlines, libel, shocking, porn. But it'll be deleted in seconds. Raise awareness of something? Maybe.
Something absolutely ridiculous? Yeah that's more fun.
Something absolutely ridiculous? Yeah that's more fun.
CyclopsRock
Member
My friend once logged onto Facebook on my iPad one new years morning when he woke up on my lounge sofa. Thing is, I never used FB on my ipad and, well, he never logged out. I spent the whole next year just checking him in places. I never posted messages, changed his bio or anything, I just checked him in places where he wasn't, without any message. Weird places too, like a primary school on a Sunday afternoon or a kebab place at 10am etc. The next new years day I posted (on his profile) what I'd done, with a little video of me logging out. Aaah, the good old days.
Shame you can't check in on Twitter, or it'd be great to check him in to, I dunno, The Carlton Club.
Shame you can't check in on Twitter, or it'd be great to check him in to, I dunno, The Carlton Club.
CyclopsRock
Member
THIS JUST IN: CATHERINE MCKINNEL QUITS!
https://www.politicshome.com/party-...mckinnell-quits-jeremy-corbyns-shadow-cabinet
Yeah, I didn't know who the fuck she was either but she's - sorry, she was - in Corbyn's cabinet (rather than being a junior shadow minister like the other resignees) . She said...
https://www.politicshome.com/party-...mckinnell-quits-jeremy-corbyns-shadow-cabinet
Yeah, I didn't know who the fuck she was either but she's - sorry, she was - in Corbyn's cabinet (rather than being a junior shadow minister like the other resignees) . She said...
Well resigning will certainly fix that...
I really don't understand what the Labour right actually wants to achieve most of the time. The left might have implausible plans, but at least they could point to some voters they're trying to make happy.
Nicktendo86
Member
And also today
Read on twitter that Corbyn won't address the PLP tonight either but no idea if that is BS.
Edit: Confirmed that he will not address the PLP as it will mostly be about flooding. What a piss poor excuse.
They're just whining endlessly and hoping that something comes of it. They've no plan, no ideas, no convictions other than 'we must get rid of Corbyn'
It's sad really. If there had been an idea between the other three candidates for Labour leader, then maybe Corbyn wouldn't have gotten in.
It's weird how their friends in certain parts of the press want to portray them as "pragmatists"... but they don't have enough support in their party to lead it, or enough votes to win a general election. What's pragmatic about not accepting that? And in the meantime they continue to smash the party around them like petulant children.
CyclopsRock
Member
Tbh I think a bunch of it has to be self preservation. Corbyn's going to get utterly cunted, who wants to be a part of that? Then again, they knew that 6 months ago too...
They just need to go. All of them. Resign and join the actual Tory party rather than pretend they have any interest in serving the English public. The sooner we can purge Red Tories out the better for all.
And this is why the left won't ever win.
They are not Torys. They never have been Torys. To categorise the entire centre left as 'Torys' is both intellectually short changing them and our political scene as a whole.
We are *literally* repeating the 80s here, and I'd hoped we on the left had learnt those very harsh lessons last time around.
I work with Blairites labour people on a daily basis. To try and hand wave then away as Torys is nothing more than idiocy. Sorry but it's a cheap, dumb tactic that will guarantee we can't win an election for another decade, and ignored the immense changes that labour delivered on under Blair and Brown.
The enemy of perfect is not good.
They are not Torys. They never have been Torys. To categorise the entire centre left as 'Torys' is both intellectually short changing them and our political scene as a whole.
We are *literally* repeating the 80s here, and I'd hoped we on the left had learnt those very harsh lessons last time around.
I work with Blairites labour people on a daily basis. To try and hand wave then away as Torys is nothing more than idiocy. Sorry but it's a cheap, dumb tactic that will guarantee we can't win an election for another decade, and ignored the immense changes that labour delivered on under Blair and Brown.
The enemy of perfect is not good.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Well if by "better for all" you mean having a revitalised Conservative party covering even more of the electorate's centre ground that Labour appears to be deserting so that the Tory hegemony lasts for 50 years rather than 15 ... then you might have a point. But that's probably not what you meant.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Essentially, yes. The "moderate/Blairite/rightist/whatever" faction are morons right now, in that they are doing precisely the wrong thing to achieve *any* of their aims, but they're not Conservatives.
CyclopsRock
Member
Whatever, you two. You simply aren't pure enough. That's what the Labour party's all about - purity.
And losing elections lol.
And losing elections lol.
Don't get me wrong, I think the current behaviour of the centre left MPs is dumb as hell and shows about as much self awareness as a box of hair. But we cannot pretend they don't exist, and falling into the old left wing trap of believing that any difference of opinion makes you the enemy is what got us into so much trouble 30 years ago.
I really never envisaged we would be dealing with entryism and deselection committees in the party again like this.
I really never envisaged we would be dealing with entryism and deselection committees in the party again like this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'll be honest, Maledict, I've seen boxes of hair with more awareness; I'm fairly sure that Trump is controlled by his wig.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
I mean it doesn't help when you have fuckheads like Michael Dugher going off and writing an article in The Sun criticising Corbyn. What is he trying to achieve by doing this?
I feel like a large part is the frustration of the left who, after years of being completely marginalised finally have someone they can actually believe in as the leader of the Labour party, only to have them be constantly undermined by his own fucking MPs, whilst hypocritically complaining about purges and deselection (which Corbyn has said multiple times won't happen) after a fairly decent chunk of them had been parachuted into safe seats by Blair. It's the actions of spoiled brats who are throwing a hissy fit that they're not in charge anymore.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the response is right, or helpful, or that everyone in the Labour party has to be FULL COMMUNISM NOW or whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that it's really only a few people ruining it for everyone else, but those few people are getting the left riled up more and more, at the expense of the entire party.
I think all sides are equally mad to be honest. Absolutely agree that stuff like Dugher is reprehensible - but so is Momentum's open and aggressive campaigning to deselect local MPs and councillors they don't like. Which happened in my borough, whilst the shadow chancellor sat in the meeting and looked on. What Corbyn says, and what Corbyn does (and his agents, allies and Momentum) are very separate things. Now that maybe because he's out of touch with them, he may not be backing it directly - but it is happening.
There';s very much a feeling in some quarters that a lot of this is the hard left enacting revenge for the centre left having the temerity to, you know, win elections and not turn Britain into a communist state.
(That may sound silly but some of the people involved here are literally the same people involved in this crap from the 80s. Utterly perplexing to people like myself who weren't around then but can clearly see the damage it wrought to the left at the time).
There';s very much a feeling in some quarters that a lot of this is the hard left enacting revenge for the centre left having the temerity to, you know, win elections and not turn Britain into a communist state.
(That may sound silly but some of the people involved here are literally the same people involved in this crap from the 80s. Utterly perplexing to people like myself who weren't around then but can clearly see the damage it wrought to the left at the time).
CyclopsRock
Member
I wouldn't be to sure on that. Now obviously I cannot go into to much detail (I will be found and roasted at work if I started naming names) but I have witnessed first hand a threat of deselection from one of Corbyn's hatchet men towards someone who is a centrist in the Labour party. Its open fucking warfare and pretty obvious that goading is going on behind the scenes and who is the antagonist.
Its quite something to watch as it left me gobsmacked. What was even more concerning was my PwC counterpart (also present) obviously had seen this before from his charge.
Really starting to think Labour is going to split itself in two the longer this goes on (makes my job piss easy as my Minister isn't getting tagged at all)
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Momentum is very strange, and not comparable to groups like Progress. It doesn't really have any central authority, and local Momentum groups do whatever the fuck they want. Momentum's official policy is against deselection, but that obviously doesn't stop local Momentum groups. Either way, Corbyn is *definitely* not in charge of Momentum. He is obviously backed by the main Momentum leadership plus the local groups, but that's because they like him and not because he is their boss. He could admonish them, yes, but... he doesn't really have anyone else in his corner, so he's choosing to ride the tiger. Partially this is on him, but partially this is also on the Labour 'moderates' for forcing him into that corner.
Having said that, Momentum is very slowly starting to assume structure - it's at the very least beginning to police membership so nobody with an SWP-background or Militant-background can enter. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up.
Corbyn's main demographic isn't the hard left. I don't even think the majority of Momentum could easily be categorized as the hard left, although the hard left has a very significant presence within Momentum. Corbyn's main demographic is the soft left - which is the usual swing demographic in Labour internal elections. Corbyn is obviously teetering on the fine line between the hard left and soft left himself, but he was selected by the soft left partially because he was closer to their preferences than any of the other candidates and partially because the 'moderates' put up a god-awful slate of candidates.
The fact that the 'moderates' don't understand this is why people are baffled when the 'moderates' say they should be in charge of Labour because they understand how electability works - they're very busily demonstrating the opposite right now.
Yep - see my post above. This is happening right now in the labour party. The reason the centre-left MPs are acting the way they are is because they are being very openly told they are going to be deselected by the leadership, or aides to the leadership. Given that a lot of them went into politics as centre-left MPs, and they weren't around for the 70's stuff, it's incredible and really fueling their fears around this being revenge for stuff that happened long before a lot of them were in politics.
The worse thing is, a lot of Corbyn's supporters don't see this side of things, particulary the urban London base which is the only area of the country the party is doing well in at the moment.
Again, I'm not excusing some of the hare-brained stuff the centre left MPs are doing right now, but there really is basically open warfare going on at the moment between the wings of the party, and deselection is being openly flung at moderates.
Nicktendo86
Member
Tory election poster right there.I dunno what you're talking about.
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