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UN Climate Change Conference 2009

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Q&A: THE COPENHAGEN CLIMATE SUMMIT

Delegations from 192 countries are descending on Copenhagen for two weeks of talks aimed at paving the way for a new global treaty on climate change. BBC environment correspondent Richard Black looks at what the talks are about and what they are supposed to achieve.



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Why are the Copenhagen talks happening?

The majority of the world's governments believe that climate change poses a threat to human society and to the natural world.

Successive scientific reports, notably those from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), have come to ever firmer conclusions about humankind's influence on the modern-day climate, and about the impacts of rising temperatures.

Two years ago, at the UN climate talks held in Bali, governments agreed to start work on a new global agreement.

The Copenhagen talks mark the end of that two-year period.

Governments hope to leave the Danish capital with a political agreement on the outlines of a new deal.

The talks are technically known as the 15th Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) - often abbreviated to COP15.



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What are the prospects for a deal?

Four broad outcomes are possible from the Copenhagen summit:

  • a comprehensive deal with all loose ends tied up
  • a deal agreeing the "big picture", but with lots of details remaining to be thrashed out over the coming months or years
  • adjournment of the COP, probably until midway through 2010
  • breakdown.

Almost every government attending the talks says it wants a deal; and many contend it is necessary to have the essential ingredients in place by the time the Kyoto Protocol's current targets expire in 2012.

But in the weeks leading up to Copenhagen, it has become clear that a full, legally-binding treaty is not possible.

A political agreement appears more likely, with attempts to secure a legally-binding treaty deferred until some point in 2010.



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Why is climate change happening - and is it the same as global warming?

The Earth's climate has always changed naturally over time.

For example, variability in our planet's orbit alters its distance from the Sun, which has given rise to major Ice Ages and intervening warmer periods.

According to the last IPCC report, it is more than 90% probable that humankind is largely responsible for modern-day climate change.

_46498413_hockstickbbc226i.jpg

LINK: A brief history of climate change

The principal cause is burning fossil fuels - coal, oil and gas.

This produces carbon dioxide (CO2), which - added to the CO2 present naturally in the Earth's atmosphere - acts as a kind of blanket, trapping more of the Sun's energy and warming the Earth's surface.

Deforestation and processes that release other greenhouse gases such as methane also contribute.

Although the initial impact is a rise in average temperatures around the world - "global warming" - this also produces changes in rainfall patterns, rising sea levels, changes to the difference in temperatures between night and day, and so on.

This more complex set of disturbances has acquired the label "climate change" - sometimes more accurately called "anthropogenic (human-made) climate change".



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Why is a new treaty needed?

The Copenhagen talks sit within the framework of the UNFCCC, established at the Rio de Janeiro Earth Summit in 1992.

In 1997, the UNFCCC spawned the Kyoto Protocol.

But neither of these agreements can curb the growth in greenhouse gas emissions sufficiently to avoid the climate impacts projected by the IPCC.

In particular, the Kyoto Protocol's targets for reducing emissions apply only to a small set of countries and expire in 2012.

Governments want a new treaty that is bigger, bolder, wider-ranging and more sophisticated than the Kyoto agreement.

In June, the G8 and a number of large developing countries agreed that the average temperature rise since pre-industrial times should be limited to 2C (3.6F).

In principle, they are looking to the Copenhagen treaty to curb the growth in greenhouse gas emissions enough to keep the world within that limit.



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Who is looking for what in the new treaty?

A lot of issues are involved.

Industrialised nations will set targets for reducing their greenhouse gas emissions in order to mitigate climate change.

The key date for these commitments is 2020, although some countries are looking beyond that, to 2050.

Australia, the EU, Japan and New Zealand have already said what they are prepared to do by 2020.

Richer developing countries are also likely to be asked to constrain their emissions.

If they do make any pledges, they are likely to restrain the growth of emissions rather than making actual cuts.

Their commitments are likely to be expressed in terms of a reduction in emissions growth of a certain percentage compared with business as usual, or a reduction in the carbon intensity of their economy.

In order to help developing countries constrain their greenhouse gas emissions, industrialised nations have agreed in principle to help them in areas such as renewable energy.

Developing countries are looking for mechanisms that can speed up this technology transfer.

Many countries are thinking about how to prepare for the impacts of climate change - what sorts of adaptation will be necessary.

These include measures such as building sea defences, securing fresh water supplies and developing new crop varieties.

Developing countries are looking for substantial and reliable finance to help them adapt. Their argument is that as the industrialised world has caused the problem, it must pay to sort it out.

Measures to protect forests will be a component of the deal.

LINK: climate change glossary - All terms about climate explained



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How much will it cost?

In general, fossil fuels provide us with our cheapest sources of energy.

The main route to reducing greenhouse gas emissions is to avoid burning fossil fuels; so a successful treaty would almost certainly make energy more expensive.

There are different analyses of how much it would cost to make this transition quickly enough to avert "dangerous" climate change.

Developing countries are looking for money in the order of hundreds of billions of dollars each year for mitigation - the ballpark figure that the International Energy Agency calculates is necessary to fund a large-scale switch to low-carbon energy.

A number of studies, including one by the World Bank, also suggest that a further $100bn per year or thereabouts will be needed to help poorer countries adapt.

By comparison, the amount of overseas aid currently given each year by rich countries is in the region of $100bn.



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Would a Copenhagen deal solve climate change?

The global average temperature has already risen by about 0.7C since pre-industrial times.

In some parts of the world this is already having impacts - and a Copenhagen deal could not stop those impacts, although it could provide funding to help deal with some of the consequences.

Greenhouse gases such as CO2 stay in the atmosphere for decades; and concentrations are already high enough that further warming is almost inevitable.

COPENHAGEN IN BRIEF

* 192 countries attending talks, including about 100 leaders
* To discuss emissions cuts and financial measures to combat climate change
* Danish PM urges delegates to deliver "hope for the future"
* South Africa is the latest country to make emissions offer
* Due to end 18 December

LINK: Climate change in graphics
LINK: Copenhagen's key players

Many analyses suggest an average rise of 1.5C since pre-industrial times is guaranteed.

A strong Copenhagen deal might keep the temperature rise under 2C; but given uncertainties in how the atmosphere and oceans respond to rising concentrations of greenhouse gases, it might not.

This is why developing countries put such an emphasis on adaptation, which they argue is necessary already.

IPCC figures suggest that to have a reasonable chance of avoiding 2C, global emissions would need to peak and start to decline within about 15-20 years.

Currently, the cuts pledged by industrialised nations are not enough to halt the overall global rise in emissions.

Whatever happens in Copenhagen, further meetings will almost certainly be necessary to finalise the "rules" of any new treaty.

Further ahead, at some point governments will almost certainly begin the process of securing the deal after Copenhagen.






Official website
Source of Q&A
 
~Devil Trigger~ said:
bu
bu...
but teh komputer Hackz?!?!?!
Thanks to the email, I know that this summit bringing 192 countries and 15,000 policy makers and scientists together is just a big sham.

AbortedWalrusFetus said:
Did you seriously post the hockey stick?
Que?
 
it's so sad but noone at the conference will give a shit (as usual).
it makes me sick
we truely deserve to get wiped off this planet
 
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
That graph is one of the most widely discredited scientific visualizations of all time. It's garbage. Completely inaccurate.
Hey, I just quoted the BBC article, including the graph. If you want to nitpick about that little graph, I'm willing to change or delete it just for you.
 
One thing that amused me was that in the opening speech a Hurricane/Cyclone was cited as a danger of Climate Change by the speech giver (I think it was the Prime Minister of Denmark, but I can't remember). Hasn't climate change effecting hurricanes been debunked also?
 

JohnTinker

Limbaugh Parrot
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
One thing that amused me was that in the opening speech a Hurricane/Cyclone was cited as a danger of Climate Change by the speech giver (I think it was the Prime Minister of Denmark, but I can't remember). Hasn't climate change effecting hurricanes been debunked also?
It has.
 
Souldriver said:
Hey, I just quoted the BBC article, including the graph. If you want to nitpick about that little graph, I'm willing to change or delete it just for you.

It's not your fault, and you did a great job with the OP. I was just a little incredulous that the thing is being used anymore at all.
 
JohnTinker said:

Thought so. I heard it on the radio this morning. He recited a story of how a little boy lost his parents in a cyclone. I was thinking, "This is horrible, but shouldn't he have picked something actually related to the issue they're supposed to be discussing?"
 

ToxicAdam

Member
If the science is certain than the EPA should just slap a straight carbon tax on everything tomorrow. It's in their power to do it (per the Supreme Court).

It's much more effective than all this pompous bullshit where politicians get to strut around like they are "saving the planet". In actuality, they are merely pooling money (and power) to divy back out to their constituents or to other governments.

Mitigation schemes will never work and we will have wasted all that time/money when it could have been used on adaptation plans. I don't blame the internationl countries for buying into this bullshit, this is their form of "reparations" for all the ills that Western countries have done over the past century.

By allowing politicians to decide this, we are doomed to fail.
 
I think one of the worst ideas to come out of climate change mitigation is those damn carbon credits or whatever they're called. Biggest pile of bullshit ever.
 

Woodsy

Banned
Awesome that the 1,200 limos and 140 private planes coming in there output more CO2 than 60 countries to a year combined. :lol

I think one of the worst ideas to come out of climate change mitigation is those damn carbon credits or whatever they're called. Biggest pile of bullshit ever.

Actually, those are the ONLY reasons that the issue gets any pub. If the money goes away, so do the power brokers and fear mongers.
 
Here's a wonderful article:

Has Anyone Read the Copenhagen Agreement?

Wall Street Journal said:
The "scheme for the new institutional arrangement under the Convention" that starts on page 18 contains the provision for a "government." The aim is to give a new as yet unnamed U.N. body the power to directly intervene in the financial, economic, tax and environmental affairs of all the nations that sign the Copenhagen treaty.

The reason for the power grab is clear enough: Clause after complicated clause of the draft treaty requires developed countries to pay an "adaptation debt" to developing countries to supposedly support climate change mitigation. Clause 33 on page 39 says that "by 2020 the scale of financial flows to support adaptation in developing countries must be [at least $67 billion] or [in the range of $70 billion to $140 billion per year]."

And how will developed countries be slugged to provide for this financial flow to the developing world? The draft text sets out various alternatives, including option seven on page 135, which provides for "a [global] levy of 2 per cent on international financial market [monetary] transactions to Annex I Parties." Annex 1 countries are industrialized countries, which include among others the U.S., Australia, Britain and Canada.

This sounds real promising already. :\
 

cntr

Banned
Let me quote myself:
cntrational said:
Also, to address the "lol hockey stick" thing gobshites like to say: First, Mann's hockey stick isn't the only one. A 2006 National Research Council review of the evidence stated "with a high level of confidence that global mean surface temperature was higher during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period during the preceding four centuries" The report was less confident in the reconstructions back to 900 A.D., although it still viewed them as "plausible." A new research paper by Mann and his colleagues seems to confirm that the Medieval Warm Period and the “Little Ice Age” between 1400 and 1700 were both caused by shifts in solar radiance and other natural factors that do not seem to be happening today.

An analysis by four statisticians, not peer-reviewed, the Wegman Report was more critical of the hockey stick. But the errors pointed out don't actually do much to the hockey stick. In 2008, Mann and his colleagues published an updated version.

"But it is not true!" you say. Even if you prove that the Hockey stick was somehow false, I ask you, "So what?"

As a mild aside, keep your opinions on global warming science and global warming policy separate (Woodsy and ToxicAdam, in particular).
 

ToxicAdam

Member
cntrational said:
\

As a mild aside, keep your opinions on global warming science and global warming policy separate (Woodsy and ToxicAdam, in particular).


You're not a mod. Shut your fucking hole.
 

cntr

Banned
Woodsy said:
Awesome that the 1,200 limos and 140 private planes coming in there output more CO2 than 60 countries to a year combined.

Let me see the original article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/co...mos-140-private-planes-and-caviar-wedges.html

At least the sex will be C02-neutral. According to the organisers, the eleven-day conference, including the participants' travel, will create a total of 41,000 tonnes of "carbon dioxide equivalent", equal to the amount produced over the same period by a city the size of Middlesbrough.

Nice exaggeration there.
 

cntr

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
You're not a mod. Shut your fucking hole.

And you're pretty dishonest when you act like everybody who agrees with global warming is also a supporter of cap-and-trade.
 
Woodsy said:
Awesome that the 1,200 limos and 140 private planes coming in there output more CO2 than 60 countries to a year combined. :lol
Well, even us sitting on our ass in front of our pc is causing CO2 output, so pointing this irony out as more than just irony is unfair.

However, the whole conference is going to be CO2 neutral. For every airplane flight being made, there goes money to a clean energy project in China/India that more than compensates the amount of CO2 output. Just about every material inside the conference buildings is recycled/green/clean/... During the 14 days there will be no other drinks served but water. There's a special "green train" that goes through Europe to pick up all the EU delegations of the summit, ...
 

Fjolle

Member
Shite conference for now. The weather is still bad, and there haven't been any fights :(



And :lol :lol :lol @ deniers
 
cntrational said:
As a mild aside, keep your opinions on global warming science and global warming policy separate (Woodsy and ToxicAdam, in particular).

How can opinions about Global Warming Policy be kept separate from opinions of Global Warming Science? I'd have thought they would go hand in hand.
 

exarkun

Member
It is really sad how only a select few countries are ever serious about climate change. And how the US is "LOL we wont sign that" if anything Kyoto-like is brought up.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
cntrational said:
And you're pretty dishonest when you act like everybody who agrees with global warming is also a supporter of cap-and-trade.


Again, we're back to square one with you again. Can you provide a link or proof of where I have done this?

It must be easy for you to argue when you can conveniently put words in people's mouths whenever you feel like it.
 
exarkun said:
It is really sad how only a select few countries are ever serious about climate change. And how the US is "LOL we wont sign that" if anything Kyoto-like is brought up.

All countries are right to be skeptical over signing political treaties. Rio and Kyoto had, and Copenhagen will probably have, little to do with science and a lot to do with politics.
 
Fjolle said:
It is also the scientific consensus.

I'm sure you've read this, if you havent check it out. Whether right or wrong, at least its interesting... most probably because its SUPPOSED to be provocative. Exerpt:

Michael Crichton said:
I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.

Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.

In addition, let me remind you that the track record of the consensus is nothing to be proud of. Let's review a few cases.

In past centuries, the greatest killer of women was fever following childbirth . One woman in six died of this fever. In 1795, Alexander Gordon of Aberdeen suggested that the fevers were infectious processes, and he was able to cure them. The consensus said no. In 1843, Oliver Wendell Holmes claimed puerperal fever was contagious, and presented compelling evidence. The consensus said no. In 1849, Semmelweiss demonstrated that sanitary techniques virtually eliminated puerperal fever in hospitals under his management. The consensus said he was a Jew, ignored him, and dismissed him from his post. There was in fact no agreement on puerperal fever until the start of the twentieth century. Thus the consensus took one hundred and twenty five years to arrive at the right conclusion despite the efforts of the prominent "skeptics" around the world, skeptics who were demeaned and ignored. And despite the constant ongoing deaths of women.

There is no shortage of other examples. In the 1920s in America, tens of thousands of people, mostly poor, were dying of a disease called pellagra. The consensus of scientists said it was infectious, and what was necessary was to find the "pellagra germ." The US government asked a brilliant young investigator, Dr. Joseph Goldberger, to find the cause. Goldberger concluded that diet was the crucial factor. The consensus remained wedded to the germ theory. Goldberger demonstrated that he could induce the disease through diet. He demonstrated that the disease was not infectious by injecting the blood of a pellagra patient into himself, and his assistant. They and other volunteers swabbed their noses with swabs from pellagra patients, and swallowed capsules containing scabs from pellagra rashes in what were called "Goldberger's filth parties." Nobody contracted pellagra. The consensus continued to disagree with him. There was, in addition, a social factor-southern States disliked the idea of poor diet as the cause, because it meant that social reform was required. They continued to deny it until the 1920s. Result-despite a twentieth century epidemic, the consensus took years to see the light.

Probably every schoolchild notices that South America and Africa seem to fit together rather snugly, and Alfred Wegener proposed, in 1912, that the continents had in fact drifted apart. The consensus sneered at continental drift for fifty years. The theory was most vigorously denied by the great names of geology-until 1961, when it began to seem as if the sea floors were spreading. The result: it took the consensus fifty years to acknowledge what any schoolchild sees.

And shall we go on? The examples can be multiplied endlessly. Jenner and smallpox, Pasteur and germ theory. Saccharine, margarine, repressed memory, fiber and colon cancer, hormone replacement therapy...the list of consensus errors goes on and on.

Finally, I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough. Nobody says the consensus of scientists agrees that E=mc2. Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away. It would never occur to anyone to speak that way.
 
shaft said:
Even if you don't believe in climate change, at least acknowledge the fact that we are indeed raping the earth with our nearly 7 billion souls.

Yep, now... think what you can do to rectify the problem!
 

minus_273

Banned
im curious to see where the 90% certain claim in the OP number comes from. Do you any one have the source of that? As of now i am calling BS on it and suspect it was actually a 90% confidence interval that the OP or the source didnt understand.
 

Woodsy

Banned
Fjolle said:
It is also the scientific consensus

Except that "concensus" is not science. It's hilarious to me that the AGW crowd likes to call people deniers if they are a skeptic. I dunno, kind of reminds me of people like Gallileo being called a heretic for believeing that the Earth moved around the Sun when the "concensus" was that the opposite was true.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
In the first 38 posts we already have a Michael Crichton quote, several misunderstandings of the hockystick, and the usual flock of deniers who expose themselves over and over by showing just how ignorant they are of basic physics and climate science yet act as if they have uncovered the secret and that the 75 or so out of 79 climatologists that accept AGW and believe our impact is significant are all wrong.

And that the rest of us are all sheep for accepting a scientific consensus near the level of doctors and secondhand smoke and biologist and evolution.
 
Woodsy said:
Except that "concensus" is not science. It's hilarious to me that the AGQ crowd likes to call people deniers if they are a skeptic. I dunno, kind of reminds me of people like Gallileo being called a heretic for believeing that the Earth moved around the Sun when the "concensus" was that the opposite was true.

Yes, hilarious that you compared medieval religious consensus condemning scientific enlightenment as heretic to 21st century scientific acknowledgments.
 

Linkified

Member
Hmm I would of liked to see individual countries of the EU's somewhat serious/not serious stats.

But wasn't the whole warming of the planet, ice age, warming up thing going to happen anyway, shouldn't we be trying for ways to go through the radioactive fields around the earth and search for a new sector of space to colonise?
 

Fjolle

Member
Linkified said:
Hmm I would of liked to see individual countries of the EU's somewhat serious/not serious stats.

But wasn't the whole warming of the planet, ice age, warming up thing going to happen anyway, shouldn't we be trying for ways to go through the radioactive fields around the earth and search for a new sector of space to colonise?
Didn't they get through it when they went to the moon? ;)
 

Fjolle

Member
Seriously though. I doubt that anything will happen before sometime next week, so all we'll see this week is people talking out of their asses and some idiots who will try to wreak havoc in the streets of copenhagen. That is gonna be fun to watch.
 
Jonm1010 said:
In the first 38 posts we already have a Michael Crichton quote, several misunderstandings of the hockystick, and the usual flock of deniers who expose themselves over and over by showing just how ignorant they are of basic physics and climate science yet act as if they have uncovered the secret and that the 75 or so out of 79 climatologists that accept AGW and believe our impact is significant are all wrong.

In the first 38 posts we already have demonization of a Michael Crichton quote with no explanation of why it is wrong, a ridiculous graphic whose credibility is suspect, and the usual flock of 'holier/smarter than thou' posters who expose themselves over and over by showing just how ignorant they are of basic format of scientific rigor (reproducible tests, original data not thrown so review is possible, not blacklisting people who dont agree with you etc etc) yet act as if they have uncovered the secret and that anyone who isnt 100% on the AGW bandwagon, isnt laughing at the skeptics and doesnt fully believe our impact is significant are all wrong.
 

bjaelke

Member
People should take a look at Hopenhagen.org. Cool site although it received some criticism in the media due to a Coca Cola ad they're running in Copenhagen.
Souldriver said:
Well, even us sitting on our ass in front of our pc is causing CO2 output, so pointing this irony out as more than just irony is unfair.

However, the whole conference is going to be CO2 neutral. For every airplane flight being made, there goes money to a clean energy project in China/India that more than compensates the amount of CO2 output. Just about every material inside the conference buildings is recycled/green/clean/... During the 14 days there will be no other drinks served but water. There's a special "green train" that goes through Europe to pick up all the EU delegations of the summit, ...
Parts of inner-Copenhagen has been shut down for traffic so that should also save CO2 emission during the conference.
 
Fjolle said:
Seriously though. I doubt that anything will happen before sometime next week, so all we'll see this week is people talking out of their asses and some idiots who will try to wreak havoc in the streets of copenhagen. That is gonna be fun to watch.
I think it was going to be something like that.

First day: speeches
Then: countries are put into groups. Each group has to find consensus. Afterwards groups together have to find consensus.
backrooms: lot's of comma's and points being rewritten by people
Ending: final meeting with the important politicians (Obama will only arrive on the last day) to make final agreement.

So yes, it can take a while before important and interesting stuff comes out of this summit.
 
Fjolle said:
Seriously though. I doubt that anything will happen before sometime next week, so all we'll see this week is people talking out of their asses and some idiots who will try to wreak havoc in the streets of copenhagen. That is gonna be fun to watch.

Cant argue with that. :lol
 

cntr

Banned
iamcool388 said:
I'm sure you've read this, if you havent check it out. Whether right or wrong, at least its interesting... most probably because its SUPPOSED to be provocative. Exerpt:

Actually, it's different in one main respect: All these people were attacked for suggesting new ideas that go against the "consensus". Climate warming deniers simply deny, they don't have any new ideas.

Also,

Scientific consensus is the collective judgement, position, and opinion of the community of scientists in a particular field of study. Consensus implies general agreement, though not necessarily unanimity. Scientific consensus is not by itself a scientific argument, and it is not part of the scientific method. Nevertheless, consensus may be based on both scientific arguments and the scientific method.

Consensus on global warming is generally the question: "How many climatologists agree on manmade global warming?" Well...
poll_scientists.gif

Response to the survey question "Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?" (Doran 2009) General public data come from a 2008 Gallup poll.

This is not a "proof", but it works when talking to most people.
 
bjaelke said:
People should take a look at Hopenhagen.org. Cool site although it received some criticism in the media due to a Coca Cola ad they're running in Copenhagen.

Parts of inner-Copenhagen has been shut down for traffic so that should also save CO2 emission during the conference.
I heard Copenhagen (or Denmark as a whole?) wants to cut their CO2 output by 50%. Shiit, that's a lot. But I'm certainly cheering for you guys.
 
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