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[Trouble]

Ironically, a study on this was released about an hour before the United thing broke.

Spoiler:
1. Alaska Airlines (ranked 5th in 2015)

2. Delta Air Lines (3)

3. Virgin America (1)

4. JetBlue Airways (2)

5. Hawaiian Airlines (4)

6. Southwest Airlines (6)

7. SkyWest (7)

8. United Airlines (8)

9. American Airlines (10)

10. ExpressJet (9)

11. Spirit Airlines (13)

12. Frontier (11)

Alaska is great, especially for those who live in Seattle (Seattle is their main hub). Their commuter airline Horizon gives you free PNW beer on their flights.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Great, my flight this summer is through United. :/

Serves me right for waiting so long to get tickets. They were the cheapest with the most direct flights so I pretty much had to.

 

[commish]

Guys, we get it re: the Persona screenshot photoshop. We don't need 10,000 people quoting the same picture just to add their two cents and nothing else to the conversation. We get it. He apologized for the bad joke. We can move on.

United should just own up to it, admit wrong, and try to make it right with the guy. This is going to be a PR nightmare if they try to defend their actions in any way.

 

[Audioboxer]

So what is the literal point where they can stop asking for volunteers to leave?

When the plane can take off? The only other thing I've seen about needing seats freed up from overbooking is Air Marshalls. Apparently if one of them need on a plane, people can again be asked to voluntarily accept compensation, or it turns to randomly selecting people for a higher compensation.

edit: I might actually not be strong enough at that suggestion

1. The air marshal needs your seat.
These guys still fly to protect you, and they're sometimes seated in first class without prior warning. If one of them shows up and needs your seat, you'll either be bumped off the flight entirely or reassigned to economy class. And you won't even get an explanation — obviously, the government doesn't want you to blab that there's an air marshal in seat 2A!

Although I'm guessing you'll still be compensated, just maybe not as high as some rates.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Do you accept involuntary bumping can be done at the gate?

Keep in mind I've already given my thoughts about 50x now how I think an airline should handle involuntary ~ Keep asking until the whole plane has been randomly selected.



If you don't think it's covered at all in the Cabin then how can voluntary bumping be accepted as part of the contract? It's just a verbal "gentleman's agreement" that you're accepting money the airline has no contractual basis to offer you in the cabin?

Why are you still refusing to read the paragraphs that you yourself have posted here? I'm out, there's no way this argument is in good faith.

 

[Toxi]

That's what you airlines get for constantly overbooking.

"But we can't waste money on empty seats."

Then don't let people board as long as you're overbooked.

"But that takes time!"

Then provide better incentives for your passengers to leave their seats. Clearly 800 dollars didn't cut it.

"We're not made of money!"

Then find another passenger.

"But if one refuses, then they all will!"

Then take the hit and send your standby crew on another flight.

"But that would jeopardize the flight at their destination!"

Then find another solution besides physically removing a paying customer from the flight because of your fuck up.

"There isn't one!"

Then get your worthless asses sued (and you will lose), but quit whining about it. You cut every possible corner in the name of money. So this is what you inevitably get.

 

[flkraven]

When the plane can take off? The only other thing I've seen about needing seats freed up from overbooking is Air Marshalls. Apparently if one of them need on a plane, people can again be asked to voluntarily accept compensation, or it turns to randomly selecting people for a higher compensation.

Cool so it's after you've actually departed. Is the same applicable for other transactions? If you buy something, can someone run out to your car, take it away from you because someone else needs it, and give you your money back?

 

[Brannon]

They were willing to spend $800 x 4 for volunteers, but not spend less than half that to just put them on another airline's plane?

What.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

When the plane can take off? The only other thing I've seen about needing seats freed up from overbooking is Air Marshalls. Apparently if one of them need on a plane, people can again be asked to voluntarily accept compensation, or it turns to randomly selecting people for a higher compensation.

edit: I might actually not be strong enough at that suggestion



Although I'm guessing you'll still be compensated, just maybe not as high as some rates.

This is a federal action not within the control of the airlines. That is a wholly different matter than the one we are discussing.

They were willing to spend $800 x 4 for volunteers, but not spend less than half that to just put them on another airline's plane?

What.

Unless they are truly stupid, I'm assuming there wasn't a flight available to Louisville that would get the crew there in time. Without that crew, that plane there doesn't take off, meaning pretty significant losses.

 

[Audioboxer]

Cool so it's after you've actually departed. Is the same applicable for other transactions? If you buy something, can someone run out to your car, take it away from you because someone else needs it, and give you your money back?

I don't see much value in discussing the hill of anecdotes ranging from McDonalds, to burgers, to now, cars. Best we just stick to aeroplanes and what can and can't happen in them.

Obviously, overbooking, or seats needing to be freed up, ceases to be an issue once you have departed. You're in the air.

This is a federal action not within the control of the airlines. That is a wholly different matter than the one we are discussing.

I know this, I was giving that poster an example because they keep vaguely asking about volunteers and when can an aeroplane take off without asking for them.

 

[Google]

Can someone confirm that the $800 is actually in cash?

I believe they offer the money in United $. So you would get $800 redeemable against future United flights, right?

 

[TimeLike]

Can someone confirm that the $800 is actually in cash?

I believe they offer the money in United $. So you would get $800 redeemable against future United flights, right?

Getting bumped entitles you to the option of cash or voucher but the amounts are different. Volunteering only gets you the voucher.

You can bump someone if necessary any time during the boarding process. It does not matter if you are already in your seat. You will be eligible for the same denied boarding compensation whether you were bumped at the gate or removed from the plane.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Can someone confirm that the $800 is actually in cash?

I believe they offer the money in United $. So you would get $800 redeemable against future United flights, right?

I've never seen it offered as cash, it's ALWAYS as credit to the airline.

 

[Google]

Getting bumped entitles you to the option of cash or voucher. Volunteering only gets you the voucher.

You can bump someone if necessary any time during the boarding process. It does not matter if you are already in your seat. You will be eligible for the same denied boarding compensation whether you were bumped at the gate or removed from the plane.

Gotcha. That makes some sense. Thank you.

 

[Audioboxer]

Can someone confirm that the $800 is actually in cash?

I believe they offer the money in United $. So you would get $800 redeemable against future United flights, right?

Looks like it's a cheque, but there are some terms

Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger's convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.

UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.

This is also somewhere I seen the $1200 figure earlier

Consumer fly rights

1. If you're bumped from a flight, never accept a travel voucher. You're entitled to a cash payment on the spot of up to $1200 depending on the length of the delay.

https://www.marketplace.org/2013/05...eference-guide/travel-advice-airfare-watchdog

But I believe that will fall under involuntary as government laws around it are stricter and demand a higher compensation. Voluntary seems to be more based around what you get offered by the Airline.

$800 might be due to the delay being 24 hours, versus a cap at $1200 I'm going to assume is for longer than 24 hours???

Getting bumped entitles you to the option of cash or voucher but the amounts are different. Volunteering only gets you the voucher.

You can bump someone if necessary any time during the boarding process. It does not matter if you are already in your seat. You will be eligible for the same denied boarding compensation whether you were bumped at the gate or removed from the plane.

Really? Is that from working in an airport? If so, that's all I've been trying to say...

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

They were willing to spend $800 x 4 for volunteers, but not spend less than half that to just put them on another airline's plane?

What.

$800 in United vouchers doesn't cost United $800. In fact, it could possibly be profitable, if the passenger using the voucher on a subsequent flight has to pay cash over and beyond what the $800 voucher covers, combined with choosing a flight that's not 100% booked anyway. And at the very least, it's some kind of write off that doesn't cost United much, if anything at all.

 

[KennyLinder]

Can someone confirm that the $800 is actually in cash?

I believe they offer the money in United $. So you would get $800 redeemable against future United flights, right?

I was offered a free flight. I was coming back from E3 one year and the flight was overbooked and I was offered free flight anywhere, from anywhere, free meal and hotel for the night and fly-out following day. That was with Virgin though.

 

[Very Berry Sunday]

I was a free flight, anywhere. I was coming back from E3 one year and the flight was overbooked and I was offered free flight anywhere, from anywhere, free meal and hotel for the night and fly-out following day. That was with Virgin though.

First class too?

 

[TimeLike]

Looks like it's a cheque, but there are some terms



This is also somewhere I seen the $1200 figure earlier



https://www.marketplace.org/2013/05...eference-guide/travel-advice-airfare-watchdog

But I believe that will fall under involuntary as government laws around it are stricter and demand a higher compensation. Voluntary seems to be more based around what you get offered by the Airline.

$800 might be due to the delay being 24 hours, versus a cap at $1200 I'm going to assume is for longer than 24 hours???



Really? Is that from working in an airport? If so, that's all I've been trying to say...

Yes I worked gate for Delta 2004-2007. My info is old but my memory is good.

 

[KennyLinder]

First class too?

I didn't ask, and I didn't take the offer which was something I got reminded about even recently by my wife To be fair, work paid for my flight anyway, I was tired as fuck and just wanted to go home.

TBF knowing Virgin it probably could have been pushed to Business or 1st, but who knows.

 

[televator]

ITT: Some posters let their inner authoritarian show.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yes I worked gate for Delta 2004-2007. My info is old but my memory is good.

Everyone ate me alive for pointing to RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION. Pointing to RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT first was a bit silly and a mistake, but then again, I think some of the wishy-washy remarks under 21 allude to the power the cabin crew/pilot have.

From what you've said it's as I thought, boarding is still classed as when you're sitting on the seat, and not just at the gate?

The main stick up that had everyone tell me I couldn't read or implied I was stupid appeared to suggest any of this bumping can only happen up to the gate, and then it cannot happen once seated (although one poster did say voluntarily leaving the plane was a termination of contract so okay). With everything airlines cover themselves for, I just couldn't fathom that they wouldn't want control of people even when they're seated, for instances when they do fuck up or something happens and they need seats freed up.

I've never defended it or said it's good, just argued I think they can do it. Of course, even if they can use force to eject someone, I do not agree with that. Move on and ask someone else. What was the process at the gate if you randomly picked and someone wanted to refuse? Could they, or was it tough?

 

[conpfreak]

Alt-flight?

 

[TimeLike]

Everyone ate me alive for pointing to RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION. Pointing to RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT first was a bit silly and a mistake, but then again, I think some of the wishy-washy remarks under 21 allude to the power the cabin crew/pilot have.

From what you've said it's as I thought, boarding is still classed as when you're sitting on the seat, and not just at the gate?

The main stick up that had everyone tell me I couldn't read or implied I was stupid appeared to suggest any of this bumping can only happen up to the gate, and then it cannot happen once seated (although one poster did say voluntarily leaving the plane was a termination of contract so okay).

I don't know man. Maybe it's my work history there, but it seems like common sense to me that you can be bumped any time. I don't know what secret barrier having your boarding pass scanned at the door creates. If everyone's on, and I don't have a volunteer, then someone's coming off. Nothing to it.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Everyone ate me alive for pointing to RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION. Pointing to RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT first was a bit silly and a mistake, but then again, I think some of the wishy-washy remarks under 21 allude to the power the cabin crew/pilot have.

From what you've said it's as I thought, boarding is still classed as when you're sitting on the seat, and not just at the gate?

The main stick up that had everyone tell me I couldn't read or implied I was stupid appeared to suggest any of this bumping can only happen up to the gate, and then it cannot happen once seated (although one poster did say voluntarily leaving the plane was a termination of contract so okay). With everything airlines cover themselves for, I just couldn't fathom that they wouldn't want control of people even when they're seated, for instances when they do fuck up or something happens and they need seats freed up.

I've never defended it or said it's good, just argued I think they can do it. Of course, even if they can use force to eject someone, I do not agree with that. Move on and ask someone else. What was the process at the gate if you randomly picked and someone wanted to refuse? Could they, or was it tough?

I think you're missing the distinction between do airlines pull passengers out of the seats off planes and do they have the legal right to do so based on their contracts.

Remember, every action that any corporation has ever done that they have ever been found liable wasn't because they didn't have the physical ability to do so.

If all you're arguing was that this is a practice that is done, with no judgment on the legality of it, then sure I would have agreed to that, but I don't think that's what you have been arguing this whole time.

I don't know man. Maybe it's my work history there, but it seems like common sense to me that you can be bumped any time. I don't know what secret barrier having your boarding pass scanned at the door creates. If everyone's on, and I don't have a volunteer, then someone's coming off. Nothing to it.

Do you know if someone has sued Delta for it during the time you were working there for this practice?

 

[Audioboxer]

I don't know man. Maybe it's my work history there, but it seems like common sense to me that you can be bumped any time. I don't know what secret barrier having your boarding pass scanned at the door creates. If everyone's on, and I don't have a volunteer, then someone's coming off. Nothing to it.

Well, one thing I would say to everyone tearing me to shreds, I do accept all of this is easily open to debate. How many of us are lawyers, or work in airports? I think you're the first person in here who's said they have.

As I edited in above, what was the process at the gate for involuntary bumping? Could people refuse or was it tough, you've been selected? If they do it at the gate, okay, it's "easier" to stop someone boarding a plane. Doing it on the plane and then yes, you get this situation of removing someone by force which just cannot be forgiven or accepted quite as easily as just stopping someone getting on the plane.

 

[LizardKing]

I don't know man. Maybe it's my work history there, but it seems like common sense to me that you can be bumped any time. I don't know what secret barrier having your boarding pass scanned at the door creates. If everyone's on, and I don't have a volunteer, then someone's coming off. Nothing to it.

Because it's not legal to deny someone a service they paid for and federal law specifically stipulates the airline's exception to the case which specifically spells out "denied boarding" being a way in which service can be denied. This person is obviously boarded. No stipulation for removal of a boarded passenger who is not disturbing etc. It does not allow for that. Probably would have to be tried in court though for airlines to truly stop it.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

NeoGAF's favorite youtube lawyer made a video about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOMl21K4WH0

 

[DunderHassan]

From what you've said it's as I thought, boarding is still classed as when you're sitting on the seat, and not just at the gate?

You can't just make "broad" interpretations from a law text, if it says deny boarding, then it means just that, deny entering something. Nothing else.
I mean, are you really saying that you interpret the law better than a law professor someone linked a comment from?

I don't know man. Maybe it's my work history there, but it seems like common sense to me that you can be bumped any time. I don't know what secret barrier having your boarding pass scanned at the door creates. If everyone's on, and I don't have a volunteer, then someone's coming off. Nothing to it.

The passengers likely didn't know their rights and you used that, like many authoritarian officials do in many areas, IF you actually did remove someone already seated involuntarily.

Sure, might be some other clause or something that makes this legit, but according to 14 CFR 250.5, it's not.

 

[TimeLike]

Well, one thing I would say to everyone tearing me to shreds, I do accept all of this is easily open to debate. How many of us are lawyers, or work in airports? I think you're the first person in here who's said they have.

As I edited in above, what was the process at the gate for involuntary bumping? Could people refuse or was it tough, you've been selected? If they do it at the gate, okay, it's "easier" to stop someone boarding a plane. Doing it on the plane and then yes, you get this situation of removing someone by force which just cannot be forgiven or accepted quite as easily as just stopping someone getting on the plane.

I don't know if anyone sued. I heard the threat at least once a week for lesser things than being bumped.

As for the process, if no one volunteered, we had a list of criteria to use to determine who got the shaft. It's probably done by algorithm nowadays. I had to look for who was local who could just go home and come back later. I had to avoid the high level frequent flyers, etc.

So once you pick someone, you tell them, let them vent and then accept it. You can't refuse. The only way out of it once you're chosen is if someone comes up and volunteers to take your place. Then you get them to choose voucher or cash. Work out the amounts. Get them their new itinerary and any info they need. That's it.

 

[cchum]

 

[Audioboxer]

Because it's not legal to deny someone a service they paid for and federal law specifically stipulates the airline's exception to the case which specifically spells out "denied boarding" being a way in which service can be denied. This person is obviously boarded. No stipulation for removal of a boarded passenger who is not disturbing etc. It does not allow for that. Probably would have to be tried in court though for airlines to truly stop it.

But it is (if it's replaced by another ticket and compensated)

Overbooking

Overbooking is not illegal, and most airlines overbook their scheduled flights to a certain extent in order to compensate for "no-shows." Passengers are sometimes left behind or "bumped" as a result. When an oversale occurs, the Department of Transportation (DOT) requires airlines to ask people who aren't in a hurry to give up their seats voluntarily, in exchange for compensation. Those passengers bumped against their will are, with a few exceptions, entitled to compensation.

Voluntary Bumping

Almost any planeload of airline passengers includes some people with urgent travel needs and others who may be more concerned about the cost of their tickets than about getting to their destination on time. DOT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily. Here's how this works. At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold. If you're not in a rush to arrive at your next destination, you can give your reservation back to the airline in exchange for compensation and a later flight. But before you do this, you may want to get answers to these important questions:

When is the next flight on which the airline can confirm your seat? The alternate flight may be just as acceptable to you. On the other hand, if the airline offers to put you on standby on another flight that's full, you could be stranded.
Will the airline provide other amenities such as free meals, a hotel room, transfers between the hotel and the airport, and a phone card? If not, you might have to spend the money it offers you on food or lodging while you wait for the next flight.
DOT has not mandated the form or amount of compensation that airlines offer to volunteers. DOT does, however, require airlines to advise any volunteer whether he or she might be involuntarily bumped and, if that were to occur, the amount of compensation that would be due. Carriers can negotiate with their passengers for mutually acceptable compensation. Airlines generally offer a free trip or other transportation benefits to prospective volunteers. The airlines give employees guidelines for bargaining with passengers, and they may select those volunteers willing to sell back their reservations for the lowest price. If the airline offers you a free ticket or a transportation voucher in a certain dollar amount, ask about restrictions. How long is the ticket or voucher good for? Is it "blacked out" during holiday periods when you might want to use it? Can it be used for international flights?

Involuntary Bumping

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:

If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.

If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).

If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.

You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an "involuntary refund" for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.

If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.
Like all rules, however, there are a few conditions and exceptions:

To be eligible for compensation, you must have a confirmed reservation. A written confirmation issued by the airline or an authorized agent or reservation service qualifies you in this regard even if the airline can't find your reservation in the computer, as long as you didn't cancel your reservation or miss a reconfirmation deadline.

Each airline has a check-in deadline, which is the amount of time before scheduled departure that you must present yourself to the airline at the airport. For domestic flights most carriers require you to be at the departure gate between 10 minutes and 30 minutes before scheduled departure, but some deadlines can be an hour or longer. Check-in deadlines on international flights can be as much as three hours before scheduled departure time. Some airlines may simply require you to be at the ticket/baggage counter by this time; most, however, require that you get all the way to the boarding area. Some may have deadlines at both locations. If you miss the check-in deadline, you may have lost your reservation and your right to compensation if the flight is oversold.
As noted above, no compensation is due if the airline arranges substitute transportation which is scheduled to arrive at your destination within one hour of your originally scheduled arrival time.

If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result. In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.

The rules do not apply to charter flights, or to scheduled flights operated with planes that hold fewer than 30 passengers. They don't apply to international flights inbound to the United States, although some airlines on these routes may follow them voluntarily. Also, if you are flying between two foreign cities -- from Paris to Rome, for example -- these rules will not apply. The European Commission has a rule on bumpings that occur in an EC country; ask the airline for details, or go to http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm [external link].

Airlines set their own "boarding priorities" -- the order in which they will bump different categories of passengers in an oversale situation. When a flight is oversold and there are not enough volunteers, some airlines bump passengers with the lowest fares first. Others bump the last passengers to check in. Once you have purchased your ticket, the most effective way to reduce the risk of being bumped is to get to the airport early. For passengers in the same fare class the last passengers to check in are usually the first to be bumped, even if they have met the check-in deadline. Allow extra time; assume that the roads are backed up, the parking lot is full, and there is a long line at the check-in counter.

Airlines may offer free tickets or dollar-amount vouchers for future flights in place of a check for denied boarding compensation. However, if you are bumped involuntarily you have the right to insist on a check if that is your preference. Once you cash the check (or accept the free flight), you will probably lose the ability to pursue more money from the airline later on. However, if being bumped costs you more money than the airline will pay you at the airport, you can try to negotiate a higher settlement with their complaint department. If this doesn't work, you usually have 30 days from the date on the check to decide if you want to accept the amount of the check. You are always free to decline the check (e.g., not cash it) and take the airline to court to try to obtain more compensation. DOT's denied boarding regulation spells out the airlines' minimum obligation to people they bump involuntarily. Finally, don't be a "no-show." If you are holding confirmed reservations you don't plan to use, notify the airline. If you don't, they will cancel all onward or return reservations on your trip.

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbooking

You can't just make "broad" interpretations from a law text, if it says deny boarding, then it means just that, deny entering something. Nothing else.
I mean, are you really saying that you interpret the law better than a law professor someone linked a comment from?



The passengers likely didn't know their rights and you used that, like many authoritarian officials do in many areas, IF you actually did remove someone already seated involuntarily.

Sure, might be some other clause or something that makes this legit, but according to 14 CFR 250.5, it's not.

Well if it goes on, are we now expecting it to never happen again? It's 2017 and it's never been stopped in a court of law before now?

I don't know if anyone sued. I heard the threat at least once a week for lesser things than being bumped.

As for the process, if no one volunteered, we had a list of criteria to use to determine who got the shaft. It's probably done by algorithm nowadays. I had to look for who was local who could just go home and come back later. I had to avoid the high level frequent flyers, etc.

So once you pick someone, you tell them, let them vent and then accept it. You can't refuse. The only way out of it once you're chosen is if someone comes up and volunteers to take your place. Then you get them to choose voucher or cash. Work out the amounts. Get them their new itinerary and any info they need. That's it.

Well thanks for confirming that. I still stand by in this situation they should just have moved onto another passenger and not dug their heels in and violently forced someone off. The plane wasn't taking off till someone accepted.

 

[TimeLike]

Because it's not legal to deny someone a service they paid for and federal law specifically stipulates the airline's exception to the case which specifically spells out "denied boarding" being a way in which service can be denied. This person is obviously boarded. No stipulation for removal of a boarded passenger who is not disturbing etc. It does not allow for that. Probably would have to be tried in court though for airlines to truly stop it.

Being bumped is not denying someone a service they paid for. You paid for a contract of carriage from point A to point B. You did not pay for a seat on this particular flight. You might think you did, but you didn't. The airline is responsible for getting you to your destination somehow and sometime. I'm sure there are guidelines for how close they have to be to your requested departure and arrival times and when they need to start compensating you.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

by calling in the involuntary denied boarding, their review has already failed

 

[Jisgsaw]

Being bumped is not denying someone a service they paid for. You paid for a contract of carriage from point A to point B. You did not pay for a seat on this particular flight. You might think you did, but you didn't. The airline is responsible for getting you to your destination somehow and sometime. I'm sure there are guidelines for how close they have to be to your requested departure and arrival times and when they need to start compensating you.

Yes you did, as per what is writen on your boarding pass, which is explicitly part of most Tos. EasyJet Tos for example explicitly says your ticket is valid only for the specified flight.

 

[iapetus]

But it is (if it's replaced by another ticket and compensated)

Okay. Here's the bit you're ignoring. Again.

At the check-in or boarding area

Can you please start to read the shit you're posting?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Yes you did, as per what is writen on your boarding pass, which is explicitly part of most Tos. EasyJet Tos for example explicitly says your ticket is valid only for the specified flight.

Shh, he worked for an airline a decade ago, him and Audioboxer know all the legal intricacies of these situations.

 

[TimeLike]

Yes you did, as per what is writen on your boarding pass, which is explicitly part of most Tos. EasyJet Tos for example explicitly says your ticket is valid only for the specified flight.

Confusing terms. Your boarding pass is only valid for that flight. Your boarding pass is not your ticket. Your ticket is from point A to point B.

 

[DunderHassan]

But it is (if it's replaced by another ticket and compensated)

From your very own text:

"At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold."

Nowhere does it mention bumping already seated passengers.

Well if it goes on, are we now expecting it to never happen again? It's 2017 and it's never been stopped in a court of law before now?

Sorry, I don't really understand the question.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yes you did, as per what is writen on your boarding pass, which is explicitly part of most Tos. EasyJet Tos for example explicitly says your ticket is valid only for the specified flight.

For what it's worth that is because you can buy open tickets that allow travel to your destination with flexibility. Only being valid for this flight just counters that. You cannot get on another aeroplane or leave at any time you want.

Bumping happens on EasyJet as well

Last year, nearly 3 million easyJet customers didn't show for their flights. When this happens, it means aircraft leave with empty seats, increasing our costs and therefore the price you pay for your flight.

So, to make sure we keep our prices low for all of our customers, we will sometimes sell more seats on the flight if we know that there is a high likelihood of passengers not turning up. We assess this by looking at the history of each flight, and reviewing what happened previously. We will always ask for volunteers to give up their seats in the first instance, and only a tiny proportion of our passengers are unable to take a flight due to oversales.

We acknowledge how stressful and inconvenient this can be for those affected, and if you are one of these passengers, we will support you and do what we can to make sure you get to your destination on the next available flight.

In accordance with EU regulation 261, we will ensure all affected passengers are supported on their journey and given financial compensation for the inconvenience. For further information on your rights as a passenger, have a look at our dropdowns below.

http://www.easyjet.com/en/help/at-the-airport/oversales

Okay. Here's the bit you're ignoring. Again.



Can you please start to read the shit you're posting?

The debate is boarding still includes the plane. In the situation that I'm wrong are you simply saying it is not allowed once seated?

From your very own text:

"At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold."

Nowhere does it mention bumping already seated passengers.



Sorry, I don't understand your question here.

How are airlines able to do it without having been taken to the cleaners before now?

 

[Stencil]

Damn, that poll. Guess a second airline made my do-not-fly list (first being, you guessed it, Spirit.)

 

[DunderHassan]

How are airlines able to do it without having been taken to the cleaners before now?

Dunno, can you find a case where someone tried and failed?
Maybe no other airline is stupid enough to actually let passengers board and then afterwards bump someone?
Or simply, people don't know their rights and just shrug it off, like in many other instances. After all, they do get a hefty compensation and therefore accepted a new contract.

I don't really understand how "why have nobody done it until now" invalidates actual law text.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Had to be real awkward for the person who took his seat.

 

[TimeLike]

From your very own text:

"At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold."

Nowhere does it mention bumping already seated passengers.



Sorry, I don't really understand the question.

Laws and regulations don't work like that. They don't tell you what you can do but rather only what you can't do. If it doesn't say you can't bump an already boarded passenger, then you can. The law says you may not steal a car. There is no law that says you may walk past a car and not steal it.

 

[BolognaOni]

by calling in the involuntary denied boarding, their review has already failed

How so? They've just stated they're reviewing it. They can easily conclude that United did not follow DoT regulations for Involuntary Denied Boarding.

 

[GhaleonEB]

From your very own text:

"At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold."

Nowhere does it mention bumping already seated passengers.

It's also repeatedly described as "denied boarding compensation" in the "Involuntary Bumping" section; both sections are clearly talking about passengers who have not boarded the plane.

 

[MisterR]

That when you call me stupid and use caps locks it isn't instantly going to make me change my mind? I am genuinely trying to google for more instances of overbooking after boarding. If I'm wrong it should be quite easy to find this explained, especially today considering how this has blown up. Even on today's articles I haven't found anything saying that an airline cannot ask for voluntary and involuntary bumping in the cabin. If that was a breach of contract or against the law I would have expected to have seen it stated by now.

Surprisingly enough searching google doesn't make you an expert on the law.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Laws and regulations don't work like that. They don't tell you what you can do but rather only what you can't do. If it doesn't say you can't bump an already boarded passenger, then you can. The law says you may not steal a car. There is no law that says you may walk past a car and not steal it.

What? The part they're quoting is from United's terms, that has nothing to do with laws or regulations. These are contracts, you don't get the benefit of the doubt if you forget to include something. These are in no way, shape, or form a law...

 

[Gattsu25]

The debate is boarding still includes the plane. In the situation that I'm wrong are you simply saying it is not allowed once seated?

The boarding area is before you step on the plane. Where you get your ticket scanned the final time.

Anyone seated in the plane is no longer in the boarding area as they have already boarded.

 

[iapetus]

The debate is boarding still includes the plane. In the situation that I'm wrong are you simply saying it is not allowed once seated?

You know full well what I'm saying. That boarding is a well defined part of the process, and that this form of involuntary bumping is not permitted under those clauses after boarding has taken place. In the situation that you're wrong (and people have already quoted actual experts in law saying that you are) then the fact is that the clauses you're so desperate to apply don't give the airline the right to force a passenger to give up their seat.

The right thing to do in this case is for the airline to be forced to keep offering more money until someone accepts it (and they will, eventually). Does that cost them an unreasonable amount? Tough. They can then decide whether the risk of that happening is worth the money they make by selling your seat on that plane twice.