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[Audioboxer]

Nope again. All those procedures talk about pre-boarding. It's actually very specific

I mean the title of the section is 'DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION'. This was plainly not supposed to happen after boarding

Yeah I've read all of that already before replying to you. You're talking about removal, not denying someone board.

"Denied boarding". The guy had already boarded.

DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION

For denying boarding.

That entire procedure is prior to the boarding the the plane. The section is very clear about that. They mention it several times.

Audioboxer you are not coming off as super informed here. As a passive observer.

I am sorry, but are you stupid?

Firstly, it is before boarding, it was already discussed before. And FYI not everything that is written in terms of service or whatever means anything on a court.

Fair enough, but I think it will cover it, in combination with the language used in section 21 around complying with cabin crew/pilot. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if any of you can now go and find confirmation it's not the case in the cabin and involuntary bumping isn't allowed.

 

[LizardKing]

Okay, back to reading because while I'm getting shat on for copying some terms from section 21, there is indeed section 25, where I should have gone the first time

RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25

Same link, you can go read it yourself. The point is involuntary requests are a thing. Not complying is what will probably "fall" under some "failure to adhere to cabin crew requests" and/or "creating a disturbance the pilot, or in this case management, has to engage with". As I said, a lot of loose language to cover just about any situation where a passenger refuses to comply with cabin crew.

Did you read what you posted? "Denied BOARDING." He was boarded. Telling him to leave was not a legitimate request.

 

[Quotient]

I'm curious: Can the passenger seek take legal action against the airline? They airline did request that he leave but they were not the ones who physically removed him, the police removed him. So would he have a case against the police?

 

[StopMakingSense]

Fair enough, but I think it will cover it, in combination with the language used in section 21 around complying with cabin crew/pilot. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if any of you can now go and find confirmation it's not the case in the cabin and involuntary bumping isn't allowed.

WHY WOULD IT COVER A THING IT EXPRESSLY DOESN'T COVER?

THATS NOT HOW CONTRACTS WORK.

The initial ask by United to involuntarily leave the plane was in breach of contract. Everything stemmed from that initial breach.

If anything the combination of 21 and 25 clearly puts United in breach.

 

[Stinkles]

Alaskan airlines is pretty damn good. No complaints really.

Cosigned. Better attitudes and manners at every level. Also highest satisfaction , on time and baggage ratings.

They generally just try harder to make it a customer focused business.

United always treats me like I am some sort of inconvenient freight item.

 

[Deku Tree]

I feel horrible for that Doctor.

More and more every day I feel like America is getting worse and worse.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I'm curious: Can the passenger seek take legal action against the airline? They airline did request that he leave but they were not the ones who physically removed him, the police removed him. So would he have a case against the police?

He has a case against both.

 

[Mr. X]

I feel horrible for that Doctor.

More and more every day I feel like America is getting worse and worse.

Unless you're a corporation or rich, then it's greatest place on Earth!

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Okay, back to reading because while I'm getting shat on for copying some terms from section 21, there is indeed section 25, where I should have gone the first time

RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25

Same link, you can go read it yourself. The point is involuntary requests are a thing. Not complying is what will probably "fall" under some "failure to adhere to cabin crew requests" and/or "creating a disturbance the pilot, or in this case management, has to engage with". As I said, a lot of loose language to cover just about any situation where a passenger refuses to comply with cabin crew.

Uh are you reading the things you post?

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

I'm curious: Can the passenger seek take legal action against the airline? They airline did request that he leave but they were not the ones who physically removed him, the police removed him. So would he have a case against the police?

The police were acting at the behest of the airline. United told them to remove the passenger. His lawyers may include Chicago PD in the legal action, but I'm sure United will be the main target.

 

[kyle-777-]

Fair enough, but I think it will cover it, in combination with the language used in section 21 around complying with cabin crew/pilot. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if any of you can now go and find confirmation it's not the case in the cabin and involuntary bumping isn't allowed.

OMG... Unbelievable.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

WHY WOULD IT COVER A THING IT EXPRESSLY DOESN'T COVER?

THATS NOT HOW CONTRACTS WORK.

Yeah I don't really get it anymore. He agreed to it even if it's not in there? I don't know.

Rights are a real thing, you do have them. It's not as easy as 'well companies have big lawyers to make them go away and they always win no matter what their T&Cs actually say'

 

[jmdajr]

I'm worked up over this.

 

[gohepcat]

Christ that's a picture that says a lot.

Look at the damn blood.

I think this gentleman is mentally ill.

Poorly handled.

 

[Very Berry Sunday]

I feel immensely sad for him. He was innocent. He didn't deserve this. No one does.

United gave 0 shits from their recent "apology". They are probably thinking of ways to discredit the doctor, or waiting for the heat to die down.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I think this gentleman is mentally ill.

Poorly handled.

Isnt he a doctor?

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

He has a case against both.

I'm surprised the police department put the officer on leave so fast. I'm certain that they'll claim it's just standard procedure while an investigation is being conducted.

If even the department deemed there was impropriety though, they're screwed too.

 

[marrec]

I think this gentleman is mentally ill.

Poorly handled.

Nah, he was dazed from getting his head banged against the armrest while being 69 years old.

 

[Iceternal]

I feel immensely sad for him. He was innocent. He didn't deserve this. No one does.

United gave 0 shits from their recent "apology". They are probably thinking lf way to discredit the doctor, or waiting the heat to die down.

Social media need to prevent it then

 

[Einchy]

https://twitter.com/DSzymborski/status/851506529618591744

Goddamn, how can anyone defend this shit?

 

[Audioboxer]

OMG... Unbelievable.

That when you call me stupid and use caps locks it isn't instantly going to make me change my mind? I am genuinely trying to google for more instances of overbooking after boarding. If I'm wrong it should be quite easy to find this explained, especially today considering how this has blown up. Even on today's articles I haven't found anything saying that an airline cannot ask for voluntary and involuntary bumping in the cabin. If that was a breach of contract or against the law I would have expected to have seen it stated by now.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Fair enough, but I think it will cover it, in combination with the language used in section 21 around complying with cabin crew/pilot. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if any of you can now go and find confirmation it's not the case in the cabin and involuntary bumping isn't allowed.

It's not everyone else's responsibility to disprove your bullshit. You have to initially prove your claim, which you still have yet to do. SMH

That's ignoring the fact that you're acting like a contract like not covering something means that it does cover it somehow. If it doesn't cover this instance, it's not going to be called out in the contract... Are you serious with this?

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I think this gentleman is mentally ill.

Poorly handled.

Or... He could just not have a great command of English on top of being in shock so he's just repeating that he needs to go home???

When I used to get beat up after just moving here I would just run to the teacher and say kick over and over again because I didn't know any other words to express what I needed to say.

How insensitive to just jumping to assuming he's mentally ill.

 

[norm9]

Goddamn, how can anyone defend this shit?

He fell.

 

[Rentahamster]

Ironically, a study on this was released about an hour before the United thing broke.

Spoiler:
1. Alaska Airlines (ranked 5th in 2015)

2. Delta Air Lines (3)

3. Virgin America (1)

4. JetBlue Airways (2)

5. Hawaiian Airlines (4)

6. Southwest Airlines (6)

7. SkyWest (7)

8. United Airlines (8)

9. American Airlines (10)

10. ExpressJet (9)

11. Spirit Airlines (13)

12. Frontier (11)

5th to 1st in a span of two years? Not bad. I've never actually flown Alaskan. Maybe it's time for a trip to Alaska to see the northern lights or catch salmon or...whatever it is people do in Alaska.

 

[samn]

Doesn't look like the contract required him to leave

however you sort that out once you're off the plane and have talked to your lawyer

federal law requires you to comply with the instructions of the crew i.e. leave the plane and if you refuse then expect security to drag you out

walk off the plane knowing you've followed the letter of the law and then give them hell

 

[Einchy]

That when you call me stupid and use caps locks it isn't instantly going to make me change my mind? I am genuinely trying to google for more instances of overbooking after boarding. If I'm wrong it should be quite easy to find this explained, especially today considering how this has blown up. Even on today's articles I haven't found anything saying that an airline cannot ask for voluntary and involuntary bumping in the cabin. If that was a breach of contract or against the law I would have expected to have seen it stated by now.

But all your proof that you've posted to backup your claim actually disproves what you're arguing.

You can stop googling, you've found it already.

 

[Eidan]

I just saw the video.

Now I'm hot.

Not flying United again.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I think this gentleman is mentally ill.

Poorly handled.

Getting your head smashed against the headrest will that to you. Or so I've been told.

He's a doctor and an old man so getting hit like that will do that to you.

And understatement of the year.

 

[Very Berry Sunday]

Imagine seeing a picture of a man injured with blood on his face, and he looks like your father. I feel like shit.

 

[Stinkles]

5th to 1st in a span of two years? Not bad. I've never actually flown Alaskan. Maybe it's time for a trip to Alaska to see the northern lights or catch salmon or...whatever it is people do in Alaska.

They have great directs from Seattle and LA too. Alaska itself is no longer the bulk of their business. They dominate a lot of the west coast period.

Mileage plan is great too. I probably get free first class upgrades about 80% of the time.

 

[kyle-777-]

That when you call me stupid and use caps locks it isn't instantly going to make me change my mind? I am genuinely trying to google for more instances of overbooking after boarding. If I'm wrong it should be quite easy to find this explained, especially today considering how this has blown up. Even on today's articles I haven't found anything saying that an airline cannot ask for voluntary and involuntary bumping in the cabin. If that was a breach of contract or against the law I would have expected to have seen it stated by now.

Well you are right, my opinion is instantly invalidated because I used caps lock to type "OMG", such a fool to use caps for that, shouldn't be allowed to post anymore. I did not call you stupid, I asked if you are stupid, because that is what looks like from your posts and if your answer was "Yes I am stupid" or "no but I have some mental problems, that affects my reasoning", I would just let it go. If you at least read before posting you would have your answers.

I could use the same argument as you and say that I did not find anything saying that they can kick him out after boarding, it does not make it more valid.

Lastly, as I said try reading, I already posted that not everything that is in a companie's terms of service is valid in a court. They can put whatever they like there.

 

[Audioboxer]

It's not everyone else's responsibility to disprove your bullshit. You have to initially prove your claim, which you still have yet to do. SMH

That's ignoring the fact that you're acting like a contract like not covering something means that it does cover it somehow. If it doesn't cover this instance, it's not going to be called out in the contract... Are you serious with this?

But all your proof that you've posted to backup your claim actually disproves what you're arguing.

You can stop googling, you've found it already.

So is it a breach of contract to ask for people to voluntarily leave? If that is the case what about anyone who has accepted compensation to leave the cabin? Are they able to now counter-sue for a breach of contract? If your response is they... volunteered, then okay, is it just involuntary bumping that isn't allowed?

People get downgraded in cabins, people have to move seats, and sometimes people will leave a cabin after boarding it. Usually law states in cases where things like this happen compensation is mandatory, and that is often what is sowed into cabin T&C/ticket contracts if we're talking legalities.

Heck there is tons of examples of shitty reasons why people have been downgraded, or even asked to leave AFTER boarding

3. You — or your child — won't listen to crew member instructions.
Actually, if you do anything to annoy cabin crew or fail to obey their instructions and those ”lighted placard signs." When singer Sarah Blackwood of Walk Off the Earth couldn't get her toddler to sit down and fasten his seatbelt just before takeoff, her United Airlines flight returned to the gate and both were invited to deplane. ”That's how babies are," she reportedly said. Not a few other parents and their issue have been booted for unruly behavior — theirs or their progeny's.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/25/why-airlines-can-bump-andie-macdowell-from-her-seat-and-you-too/

Yes it makes the airlines assholes, but I'm not debating whether the airline is an asshole, but what they can legally do/request.

Yes it makes them double assholes in this situation for allowing everyone on the plane and not doing all of this at the gate, and I guess that is the crux of where you are all telling me I'm wrong, bumping can only be done at the gate.

Well you are right, my opinion is instantly invalidated because I used caps lock to type "OMG", such a fool to use caps for that, shouldn't be allowed to post anymore. I did not call you stupid, I asked if you are stupid, because that is what looks like from your posts, because if you at least read before posting you would have your answers.

I could use the same argument as you and say that I did not find anything saying that they can kick him out after boarding, it does not make it more valid.

Lastly, as I said try reading, I already posted that not everything that is in a companie's terms of service is valid in a court. They can put whatever they like there.

Not instantly invalidated, just try debating with me without implying I'm stupid.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

federal law requires you to comply with the instructions of the crew i.e. leave the plane and if you refuse then expect security to drag you out

walk off the plane knowing you've followed the letter of the law and then give them hell

Federal law doesn't allow an airline to be arbitrary and capricious with how it selects passengers to be physically removed from a plane so that airline employees can have a seat.

If this passenger had walked off and then given them hell, he would have got jack shit. Nobody talks about it in the news, and he gets what's federally mandated and not a red cent more. Instead, he now has a huge legal settlement awaiting him for United's sloppy conduct.

 

[HMD]

You pay money for a service and they can choose to not give it you? And they assault you too. How is this in any way legal?

 

[Chris R]

5th to 1st in a span of two years? Not bad. I've never actually flown Alaskan. Maybe it's time for a trip to Alaska to see the northern lights or catch salmon or...whatever it is people do in Alaska.

Alaska/Virgin flies to more than Alaska just so ya know

 

[Eggiem]

How is this allowed on neogaf? Mods?

 

[Rentahamster]

They have great directs from Seattle and LA too. Alaska itself is no longer the bulk of their business. They dominate a lot of the west coast period.

Mileage plan is great too. I probably get free first class upgrades about 80% of the time.

Alaska/Virgin flies to more than Alaska just so ya know

Hm, I'd probably just go to Seattle then. Sorry Alaska, I have no idea what to do there, but I hear your airlines is neat.

 

[SlaughterX]

Damn, dude was 69? Thats even more fucked up.

 

[JigglesBunny]

https://twitter.com/DSzymborski/status/851506529618591744

Fucking hell. Breaks my heart. There's literally zero justification for anything that happened here and everything I've read has only made this man's experience more devastating. The total lack of commitment to justice and servicing him is even worse.

I so desperately wish there was something I could do beyond refusing to fly United (something I've done long before this) but in any event, he deserves anything and everything he can get as compensation and apologies and the bastards who did it/condoned it should be dealt with swiftly and without compromise.

*snip*

Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[Psychotext]

Ha... I have a choice between these wankers and Spirit on the route I'm taking later in the year. Yay!

Edit - Ahh, there are a couple of options for Southwest. Are they likely to be better?

 

[ColdDeckEd]

well i appreciate your wishing bad things on me, but there is no scenario where it isn't life or death were I would refuse the order of 3 officers to leave the plane.
Of coarse I would be mad..just not crazy.

According to you, that's not a bad thing, just luck of the draw. And I'm not wishing bad things on you, i'm just trying to get you to emphasize.

And that's pretty disingenuous if you really can't think of any situation that requires you to be some place at a designated time. I'll give you a real example, I'm travelling tomorrow to take an exam that costs 1500 dollars to take (on United, lord help me) that is scheduled for the morning the day after tomorrow. So 800 doesn't even begin to cover that cost. Takes months in advance to schedule, plus hundreds of dollars for rescheduling fees. My point, and everyone elses point is there has to be a middle ground that United neglected to look for. Did they really have to go from nice to fuck you so quickly? Is there any reason why United had to call the police in the first place instead of trying to work with the guy?

Honestly, I would probably give up just like you if I was in that situation. That old guy has far more testicular fortitude than you or I.

 

[marrec]

Ha... I have a choice between these wankers and Spirit on the route I'm taking later in the year. Yay!

Edit - Ahh, there are a couple of options for Southwest. Are they likely to be better?

Southwest is the best flying experience you can get for the money imo.

You can fly better with Delta, but you gotta spend way too much, diminishing returns and all that.

 

[TimeLike]

I was a Delta gate agent for a few years and this is the worst situation. I'd take ice storms and computer system shutdowns over having to invol someone especially someone already in their seat but it happens. Totally legit and legal. The only times people got super nasty with me was when no one volunteered and I had to bump someone. Even during the worst cancellations people only reached a certain level of anger. Bumping someone took it to another level though.

Deadheading crew are must-flys no matter what.
I used to go on a fully boarded plane, get on the microphone and beg people to volunteer. Usually worked. Usually.

 

[neemmss]

United has always been rude when I flew with them and I try to avoid them at all costs. But this is damn disrespectful and shameful. Never flying with them again. #FuckUnited

 

[nekkid]

I mean, you can infer the "correctness" of a company's actions based on small print and technicalities.

But in the context of these actions that stance is always going to make you look like a dick.

 

[Jisgsaw]

So is it a breach of contract to ask for people to voluntarily leave? If that is the case what about anyone who has accepted compensation to leave the cabin? Are they able to now counter-sue for a breach of contract? If your response is they... volunteered, then okay, is it just involuntary bumping that isn't allowed?

If you volontary forfeit your seat for compensation, you per definition renegociate your contract with the agreement of both parties.
So yes Of Course the issue is that this person DIDN'T agree to it, which means that by forcibly removing him, the airline unilaterally changed the contract; which in case you don't know, they don't have any right to do.

 

[MikeHattsu]

Edit: I actually see what happened now. Not increasing the amount doesn't really matter if it's done pre-boarding. Read the regulations, there's a set amount for the lottery and if that doesn't work someone gets more but can't get on.

There is nothing in there about removing people by force because that's fucking insane. This was never supposed to happen after boarding because that's a fucking insane thing to do.

Why didn't they increase the amount? Because they were already at the highest set amount, which, if they hadn't boarded yet wouldn't be a big deal, someone at random would get the higher amount and the plane would board.

This situation however was fucking crazy and never should've happened.

Somebody really screwed up allowing everybody to board I guess, and then they kept screwing up trying to use the same rules as they have for pre-boarding.

 

[PaulExcellent]

Poll:
Hah! They broke the head off my travel bass when flying from Panama. It was 10/10.

News:
Fuck this shit, man. :/

 

[flkraven]

What people aren't understanding is that 'Denied Boarding' is an abstract concept invented by corporatists to manipulate silly 'consumers' into giving in to corporate America. When has a consumer 'consumed' their travel ticket really?

Sure, he checked in 24 hours in advance, checked his luggage, got called to board, put his luggage in the overhead, sat in the chair, and buckled his seat belt. But has he really 'boarded' yet? I don't think so. Even if he got to his destination, he could still be denied boarding before he picked up his luggage from the carousel. Tbh, at any given moment someone could tear into my office and denying me boarding and they are well within there right to slam my face into my arm chair and drag me down the hall way. Anyone saying otherwise is a communist that doesn't understand the basics of navigating a website, reading rules, and applying them to whatever they want. Fools.