Support NeoGAF

[DunderHassan]

Laws and regulations don't work like that. They don't tell you what you can do but rather only what you can't do. If it doesn't say you can't bump an already boarded passenger, then you can. The law says you may not steal a car. There is no law that says you may walk past a car and not steal it.

It's breach of contract.
The contract is sealed when you sit down on your paid seat.
That's why it says "deny boarding" and not "deny service" or "deny transportation" or something similar.

There's a reason why law texts are carefully worded and often adjusted because of the law being very literal.

But sure, I might got it all wrong, I'm not a law professor after all.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I'd like to see what they officially designate as the reason for removing him. I bet while we all know the cause, the actual reason they state is going to be that he was a "trespasser" or "interfering with the flight" or "violent or disruptive".

 

[iapetus]

It's breach of contract.
The contract is sealed when you sit down on your paid seat.
That's why it says "deny boarding" and not "deny service" or "deny transportation" or something similar.

But sure, I might got it all wrong.

You got some of it wrong; the contract is sealed well before that point. The contract permits them to bump you under certain conditions before boarding, though.

 

[marrec]

I'd like to see what they officially designate as the reason for removing him. I bet while we all know the cause, the actual reason they state is going to be that he was a "trespasser" or "interfering with the flight" or "violent or disruptive".

I'm sure they're going to play up the disruptiveness of the guy as if that's an excuse to treat him like that.

"We gave him every opportunity to deplane on his own once he became disruptive" or some such.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Confusing terms. Your boarding pass is only valid for that flight. Your boarding pass is not your ticket. Your ticket is from point A to point B.

To quote the easyJet Tos again:

We accept Your offer Our internal reservations system will create a Booking (including a Booking Reference) which is then sent to You as a Confirmation Document via an email or via post for Your records. Once the Booking has been made in Our reservations systems (whether a Confirmation Document has been sent or not), there is a binding contract in place between You and Us where We are acting as principal or between You and the Supplier of the service or product You have purchased through Us where We are acting as Disclosed Agent

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure the booking sent per email include all information that is on your boarding pass, minus maybe the gate. And it is explicitly a summary of the agreed contract.

You cannot get on another aeroplane or leave at any time you want.

OK now I'm confused, it may work differently in the US... Of course you can't just board another plan, you booked another one?!?

Bumping happens on EasyJet as well

Never disputed that. It may also happen for good reasons, e.g. the planned plane had an issue, and they had to go with one with fewer seats.

The debate is boarding still includes the plane. In the situation that I'm wrong are you simply saying it is not allowed once seated?

As per their own tos, no.

How are airlines able to do it without having been taken to the cleaners before now?

Because the compensation usually makes up for it, and legal trouble is not worth it?

 

[BolognaOni]

Laws and regulations don't work like that. They don't tell you what you can do but rather only what you can't do. If it doesn't say you can't bump an already boarded passenger, then you can. The law says you may not steal a car. There is no law that says you may walk past a car and not steal it.

The DoT rules say if you deny someone boarding, you have to compensate them X-amount minimum. That regulation may only apply to people that aren't on the plane yet. If it doesn't, then there may be some other set of regulations in play that determine compensation, or it may be a work it out amongst yourselves in civil court situation (I strongly suspect it is in this case).

 

[2Smashed4U]

Has United "re-accommodated" their CEO yet?

 

[DunderHassan]

You got some of it wrong; the contract is sealed well before that point. The contract permits them to bump you under certain conditions before boarding, though.

Yeah that sounds even better, thanks for correcting

 

[iapetus]

I'd like to see what they officially designate as the reason for removing him. I bet while we all know the cause, the actual reason they state is going to be that he was a "trespasser" or "interfering with the flight" or "violent or disruptive".

And every other passenger on the flight is going to testify in his favour when he sues them. He can add libel to breach of contract, assault, or whatever else looks profitable.

 

[TimeLike]

The boarding area is before you step on the plane. Where you get your ticket scanned the final time.

Anyone seated in the plane is no longer in the boarding area as they have already boarded.

If you were on the plane in your seat and then removed, you have been denied boarding and are now eligible for denied boarding compensation. Try going back on the plane. You will be denied. It doesn't make any difference at all whether you were already on the plane.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Being bumped is not denying someone a service they paid for. You paid for a contract of carriage from point A to point B. You did not pay for a seat on this particular flight. You might think you did, but you didn't. The airline is responsible for getting you to your destination somehow and sometime. I'm sure there are guidelines for how close they have to be to your requested departure and arrival times and when they need to start compensating you.

Such fucking bullshit. You're okay with this practice? Unbelievable.

 

[newtypepilot]

Has united respond so far other than that initial tweet?

 

[sir_kevith]

Finally watched it.

Regardless of the legalities that CEO should be forced to resign over this. You can't give a non-apology and fail to address the incident. The looks of horror on the other passengers' faces says it all.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I've done a bit of searching using LexisNexis, and yeah I still can't find any decided cases on this issue. (I can't do a super extensive search though because it's pretty damn pricey and this isn't for a paying client!)

I'm fairly confident though in saying that if this were to be taken to court, it'd be a case of first impression. I'm actually hoping they do instead of simply settling. These are the kinds of cases that have the possibility of causing real, important changes.

 

[Audioboxer]

Dunno, can you find a case where someone tried and failed?
Maybe no other airline is stupid enough to actually let passengers board and then afterwards bump someone?
Or simply, people don't know their rights and just shrug it off, like in many other instances. After all, they do get a hefty compensation and therefore accepted a new contract.

I don't really understand how "why have nobody done it until now" invalidates actual law text.

Fair enough. I'm certain I'm not the only one thinking like this given the implications of this going viral and not just thinking about it for these passengers but any of us being on a plane. From a poster in here Delta seems to have been up to it as well. So I'm sure in a day or two it will be fully clarified. I don't know how this couldn't be challenged in a court of law now, given that the airline took off two other passengers before. Those cannot be classed as voluntary either, as they were randomly selected. Either way it happened in the cabin. Obviously, this man can sue them for his physical assault, not just the practice of bumping.

If I'm completely wrong then I will look stupid, but I honestly cannot fathom how something like this hasn't brought about a shitstorm before now. Maybe it will be the case that 99% of bumping has never happened in the cabin before now. I do agree an airline has to have fucked up to let everyone on the plane and then realize they've made a mess.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

If you were on the plane in your seat and then removed, you have been denied boarding and are now eligible for denied boarding compensation. Try going back on the plane. You will be denied. It doesn't make any difference at all whether you were already on the plane.

You physically can't be denied boarding if you already boarded the plane. This is like saying their denying you entry to somewhere after you're already in the building. That's not denying entry anymore, you've already entered the place.

 

[Bowler]

My cousin who flies alot said the 800 bucks is very common max that they give, but he has also received 800 dollar check, hotel stay, and another one way ticket in the continental us, on top of the return trip that was overbooked.

 

[TimeLike]

Such fucking bullshit. You're okay with this practice? Unbelievable.

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

 

[marrec]

I've done a bit of searching using LexisNexis, and yeah I still can't find any decided cases on this issue. (I can't do a super extensive search though because it's pretty damn pricey and this isn't for a paying client!)

I'm fairly confident though in saying that if this were to be taken to court, it'd be a case of first impression. I'm actually hoping they do instead of simply settling. These are the kinds of cases that have the possibility of causing real, important changes.

There's like, no way in hell they risk this actually going to court though right?

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Customer is not cooperating, bring in some thugs to beat them up. Welcome to the USA.

 

[BronsonLee]

There's like, no way in hell they risk this actually going to court though right?

Considering they apologized 12 hours after it happened, naaaaaaaaaaah

 

[Crimson_Gold]

There's like, no way in hell they risk this actually going to court though right?

Not if the individuals in the legal department wants to remain with the company

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

There's like, no way in hell they risk this actually going to court though right?

Yeah I doubt it. A verdict for plaintiff here would mean a great limitation of airlines' power for all airlines in the United States when it comes to removing passengers. That's way too big a risk for them to take. The possible money award is actually secondary because no amount they awarded would ever be big enough to really hurt UA. It's limitation of power and a widening of the floodgates for future lawsuits that they fear.

In gray areas such as this, it's incredibly important for corporations (here an entire industry) to prevent any precedence from being created by the courts.

Take the Nader v. Allegheny (they became AA) case. While Ralph Nader (yeah that Ralph Nader) didn't win much money (or any money because it was eventually reversed on appeal due to the appeal court deeming that he knew he'd likely get bumped and therefore it wasn't intentional fraudulent misrepresentation), he did win a verdict and that's what caused this practice of offering money for overbooking in the first place. Before that case, airlines offered shit.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

No, they can bump you and rebook only under the conditions that you agreed to in the contract. I'm not sure what you're not understanding, but if they had absolute power over what they can do with this then they wouldn't put out paragraph upon paragraph outlining the terms and what they can and can't do since they have no reason to. They're not all powerful corporations that can breach their own contracts when it longer benefits them...

 

[MisterR]

There's like, no way in hell they risk this actually going to court though right?

No. They'll cut him a fat check and try to sweep this awful PR under the rug as quickly as possible. Legal or not legal, at the end of the day United look like a giant pile of shit and they are gonna pay through the nose for it.

 

[electroshockwave]

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

Oh cool, so if I turn up after boarding closes they'll just put me on the next flight because I only really bought carriage from A to B?

 

[Jisgsaw]

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

You have yet to answer me on that point. I skimmed through both Ej and AirFrance Tos, which both pretty explicitly are tied to a specific flight you purchased.
It may be different in the US though, granted.

 

[LizardKing]

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

How would you be screwed if that's the case and if a company failed to put you on that exact flight? That would actually be fraud. And probably worth a lot more in compensation than the flight. Can I not show up for my flight and they will book me the next day for whatever I paid? Or whenever I get around to it? After all they owe me a trip from point A to B whenever right? Contracts work both ways.

 

[shintoki]

Know what amazes me. With the overbooking policy in place and looking over that lifehacks page posted. Only 0.2% of passengers got bumped. That means they are covering themselves for the 99.8% of the time, making a profit.

It would be absolutely nothing for them to offer up more comp in the long run. 800 not good? 1200? 1600? 2000? Someone will bite, they always do.

Now? All United has done is played themselves. Looking at a min 6 figure loss just for the man, possibly 7. Way more in bad PR. And now, you've created another situation were ambulance chasers found an easy way to make money. Something as simple as offering up a few hundred more versus losing millions when it's all done. I mean, when the fucking CEO of the company says they are actively looking for the man to compensate. He's getting an early retirement, cost of living for life, and his grand kids college fund all in one day. Hell, you know they fucked up when they let him back on the plane rather than keeping him grounded.

 

[BlastProcessing]

try harder

I will if you will.

 

[outunderthestars]

Know what amazes me. With the overbooking policy in place and looking over that lifehacks page posted. Only 0.2% of passengers got bumped. That means they are covering themselves for the 99.8% of the time, making a profit.

It would be absolutely nothing for them to offer up more comp in the long run. 800 not good? 1200? 1600? 2000? Someone will bite, they always do.

Now? All United has done is played themselves. Looking at a min 6 figure loss just for the man, possibly 7. Way more in bad PR. And now, you've created another situation were ambulance chasers found an easy way to make money. Something as simple as offering up a few hundred more versus losing millions when it's all done.

Why would they lose a lawsuit? It was the police that roughed the guy up and the carrier had the legal right to bump him off the flight.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Know what amazes me. With the overbooking policy in place and looking over that lifehacks page posted. Only 0.2% of passengers got bumped. That means they are covering themselves for the 99.8% of the time, making a profit.

It would be absolutely nothing for them to offer up more comp in the long run. 800 not good? 1200? 1600? 2000? Someone will bite, they always do.

Now? All United has done is played themselves. Looking at a min 6 figure loss just for the man, possibly 7. Way more in bad PR. And now, you've created another situation were ambulance chasers found an easy way to make money. Something as simple as offering up a few hundred more versus losing millions when it's all done.

I'm pretty sure a couple of people involved in this are already fired.

 

[Deku Tree]

I wonder how much this ends up costing United in the long run. Both from a pay out and from
Bad PR. What kind of cash settlement can this guy expect?

It sounds like United is going to argue that law enforcement is 100% responsible and they did nothing wrong.

 

[boneyjangles]

Do I lack a soul if i think this is just a series of unfortunate series of events?

I've had flights delayed massively, been bumped from a flight, and had other crazy long delays and events happen with air travel, it's part of the deal. Every time I fly I look at how busy a plane is and wonder about the chances of me getting bumped are. Everyone knows someone who's been bumped from a flight. It sucks, but it happens every day, probably hundreds of times all over the world every single day. And every day, people take their lumps and wait for the next plane. (and they take their $800 or whatever compensation).

Now we can debate the definition of 'boarding' until the cows come home, if he sues and win's they will just change the definition on the terms, because airlines need to have the ability to bump people occasionally. Even if they never over book and they are forced to keep 4, 5 or 6 or 10 free seats per plane, there will STILL be occasions due to non-normal situations that paying customers will have to give up their seats.

Why do UA staff have guaranteed seat priority? Well, probably because they need to be at the destination to staff another plane and keep the other planes (or essential part of the company) ticking over and providing a service. Staff not getting on a plane can cause all sorts of hassle and future delays that can snowball and spiral into massive delays for multiple flights, and eventually a bunch of customers are screwed over with delays and even cancellations - outrage You know, they kind of things people get outraged over already. And that's just one reason of many. But generally, staff missing at point x y and z for flight a b or c, it's not just a matter of calling in another bus driver or something.

So in that light, he is simply refusing to comply with 'the way things are' in the airline industry. This is a situation where there is no good solution. Lets remember what happens when you disobey flight crew in general in the air. The plane is immediately grounded and you are dragged of the plane if you even stall for a second when the cops arrive. We read such articles all the time.

 

[Stumpokapow]

- air travel is essential infrastructure
- businesses may be more efficient at delivering essential infrastructure, but if they are not, then the government should nationalize them in the public interest
- satisfaction with airlines is low and not rising
- all airlines provide essentially an identical service except for the routes they serve and their tolerance for passing on misery to passengers under the guise of cost savings

not saying

just saying

 

[Flying Toaster]

Why would they lose a lawsuit? It was the police that roughed the guy up.

The police did. But the situation was created by the airline. This case will be settled. A lawsuit verdict would set precedent and the idustry does not want that if the outcome is positive for the passenger.

 

[Very Berry Sunday]

I wonder how much this ends up costing United in the long run. Both from a pay out and from
Bad PR. What kind of cash settlement can this guy expect?

It sounds like United is going to argue that law enforcement is 100% responsible and they did nothing wrong.

I would like to see United explain how they already boarded the passengers instead of kicking 4 out right at the gate.

 

[LizardKing]

Do I lack a soul if i think this is just a series of unfortunate series of events?

I've had flights delayed massively, been bumped from a flight, and had other crazy long delays and events happen with air travel, it's part of the deal. Every time I fly I look at how busy a plane is and wonder about the chances of me getting bumped are. Everyone knows someone who's been bumped from a flight. It sucks, but it happens every day, probably hundreds of times all over the world every single day. And every day, people take their lumps and wait for the next plane. (and they take their $800 or whatever compensation).

Now we can debate the definition of 'boarding' until the cows come home, if he sues and win's they will just change the definition on the terms, because airlines need to have the ability to bump people occasionally. Even if they never over book and they are forced to keep 4, 5 or 6 or 10 free seats per plane, there will STILL be occasions due to non-normal situations that paying customers will have to give up their seats.

Why do UA staff have guaranteed seat priority? Well, probably because they need to be at the destination to staff another plane and keep the other planes (or essential part of the company) ticking over and providing a service. Staff not getting on a plane can cause all sorts of hassle and future delays that can snowball and spiral into massive delays for multiple flights, and eventually a bunch of customers are screwed over with delays and even cancellations - outrage You know, they kind of things people get outraged over already. And that's just one reason of many. But generally, staff missing at point x y and z for flight a b or c, it's not just a matter of calling in another bus driver or something.

So in that light, he is simply refusing to comply with 'the way things are' in the airline industry. This is a situation where there is no good solution. Lets remember what happens when you disobey flight crew in general in the air. The plane is immediately grounded and you are dragged of the plane if you even stall for a second when the cops arrive. We read such articles all the time.

The good solution is never to involuntary bump. And especially after someone has already boarded. There will always be enough volunteers if the price is high enough.

 

[EGM1966]

I've literally never heard of anything like this as a European. How can they possibly declare you as a paying passenger no longer have the seat you paid for and forcibly eject you from the seat they took your money for?

 

[Flying Toaster]

I wonder how much this ends up costing United in the long run. Both from a pay out and from
Bad PR. What kind of cash settlement can this guy expect?

It sounds like United is going to argue that law enforcement is 100% responsible and they did nothing wrong.

United will blame the police but the situation escalated because it was not solved before boarding. That is why I see a settlement.

 

[old manatee]

I've literally never heard of anything like this as a European. How can they possibly declare you as a paying passenger no longer have the seat you paid for and forcibly eject you from the seat they took your money for?

9/11

 

[TimeLike]

Oh cool, so if I turn up after boarding closes they'll just put me on the next flight because I only really bought carriage from A to B?

Yes. Did it a million times. Every flight had people running up after the door was closed. They're my favorite people because they're the reason I didn't have to bump anyone.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

United continues to be shit, I see.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I would like to see United explain how they already boarded the passengers instead of kicking 4 out right at the gate.

I'm guessing they just screwed up. That or they found out about the 4 crew members needing a flight extremely late, as in after the passengers had already boarded.

 

[Flying Toaster]

I'm guessing they just screwed up. That or they found out about the 4 crew members needing a flight extremely late, as in after the passengers had already boarded.

Logistically that is a nightmare.

 

[KingV]

Kinda. If it were the way some of you guys think and that you bought a ticket for that particular seat and flight, then you'd be screwed if anything happened. Good thing you bought carriage from A to B so now they can simply rebook you.

Then why are ticket prices different for the same destinations and different times on the same day? How do you justify different pricing if you are not paying for THAT particular time and day?

 

[StopMakingSense]

I'm guessing they just screwed up. That or they found out about the 4 crew members needing a flight extremely late, as in after the passengers had already boarded.

I thought I read that their flight they needed to make was tomorrow, so I don't understand why they didn't just wait till the next flight to Louisville today (United has several), and do it properly.

 

[Audioboxer]

In the EU it's definitely applicable against the passenger's will

Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 (Text with EEA relevance) - Commission Statement

(9) The number of passengers denied boarding against their
will should be reduced by requiring air carriers to call
for volunteers to surrender their reservations, in
exchange for benefits, instead of denying passengers
boarding, and by fully compensating those finally denied
boarding.

(10) Passengers denied boarding against their will should be
able either to cancel their flights, with reimbursement of
their tickets, or to continue them under satisfactory
conditions, and should be adequately cared for while
awaiting a later flight.

(11) Volunteers should also be able to cancel their flights,
with reimbursement of their tickets, or continue them
under satisfactory conditions, since they face difficulties
of travel similar to those experienced by passengers
denied boarding against their will.

(12) The trouble and inconvenience to passengers caused by
cancellation of flights should also be reduced. This
should be achieved by inducing carriers to inform
passengers of cancellations before the scheduled time of
departure and in addition to offer them reasonable rerouting,
so that the passengers can make other arrangements.
Air carriers should compensate passengers if they
fail to do this, except when the cancellation occurs in
extraordinary circumstances which could not have been
avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

1. When an operating air carrier reasonably expects to deny
boarding on a flight, it shall first call for volunteers to
surrender their reservations in exchange for benefits under
conditions to be agreed between the passenger concerned and
the operating air carrier. Volunteers shall be assisted in accordance
with Article 8, such assistance being additional to the
benefits mentioned in this paragraph.

2. If an insufficient number of volunteers comes forward to
allow the remaining passengers with reservations to board the
flight, the operating air carrier may then deny boarding to
passengers against their will.

3. If boarding is denied to passengers against their will, the
operating air carrier shall immediately compensate them in
accordance with Article 7 and assist them in accordance with
Articles 8 and 9.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=celex:32004R0261

Kinda scary when you read it in the court documents like that (against your will!), but sadly for digging myself out of my own hole that whole document doesn't mention anything about already being in the cabin.

Uncertain if compensation is capped, but they have amounts

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall
receive compensation amounting to:

(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less;

(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than
1 500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1 500
and 3 500 kilometres;

(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).

I don't know if America has public sites with laws anyone can dig through.

 

[Syder]

I've literally never heard of anything like this as a European. How can they possibly declare you as a paying passenger no longer have the seat you paid for and forcibly eject you from the seat they took your money for?

Yeah, this is a baffling situation. The fact that it ended in such a violent way is even worse. This isn't just an administrative fuck up.

 

[WeirdoStalkerJr]

T\ I hope he sues the hell out of the airline.

Edit: I just remembered my last flight with United, oh my god it was terrible. Overbooked, and had to sleep in the airport with my 8 year old daughter, and got no sleep with a developing ear ache.

I would rather fly Delta from now on. Such a terrible airline United is...