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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 Offseason Thread

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WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I'm not expecting much from next Season honestly. They got rid of the best director they ever had for some reason, which means it will be pretty light on action. Cersei will blow up King's Landing and die by Jamie at the season finale. Dany's final shot will be her sitting the throne. A sand snake or two will be dead. Euron will be dead. Littlefinger will be dead. The Mountain will be dead. Maybe Arya will be dead since her story is coming to a close and she has no use in the white walker fight of Season 8. Basically almost anyone useless to the whitewalker/throne situation will be dead.
 

Moff

Member
I'm not expecting much from next Season honestly. They got rid of the best director they ever had for some reason, which means it will be pretty light on action. Cersei will blow up King's Landing and die by Jamie at the season finale. Dany's final shot will be her sitting the throne. A sand snake or two will be dead. Euron will be dead. Littlefinger will be dead. The Mountain will be dead. Maybe Arya will be dead since her story is coming to a close and she has no use in the white walker fight of Season 8. Basically almost anyone useless to the whitewalker/throne situation will be dead.

well we all expected nothing from season 6 after season 5.
but now I am mildly optimistic for 7

of course it would be great to read TWOW in between, I am actually pumped for that as well
 
ADWD was great.

Yes. I enjoyed the expanded conflicts and conspiracies in Meeren and the North. Too bad the book wasn't long enough to reveal more of it and cover the battles that were about to take place. I'm sad the next 2 books will have to shrink the narrative to wrap up the story instead of expand more.
 
Quick bullet point summary from reddit of stuff from the interview with David and Dan in which they mentioned season 7 is pushed back:
  • They regret not showing the Battle of the Green Fork in season 1. They ran out of money and couldn't do it
  • Them and GRRM have had disagreements. But, GRRM understands why they make certain changes for the TV show format.
  • Characters they miss after having killed them off: Jason Momoa as Khal Drogo, Jack Gleeson as Joffrey
  • Battle of the Bastards was hard to film because of the time/money constraints. They didn't have the time for a battle like this in season 1. They praised Miguel Sapochnik for how he directed the episode. They especially liked the scene where Jon was being crushed under the bodies and trying to climb his way out.
  • They confirm that there are only two more seasons are left
  • They don't have a definite episode count for the seasons, but they will be shorter than 10 episodes
  • They know the ending already (duh)
  • 90% of season 6 was material beyond ADWD, in their opinion
  • They haven't thought of a prequel that in-depth due to their workload. But they understand that the world of asoiaf has a lot of possibilities for potential prequels. They haven't thought about the details of a prequel.
  • He didn't want to say how GRRM felt about Jon's resurrection because it might spoil something from TWOW
  • They learned of Hodor's name's origin from GRRM. They know more important information about the rest of the story for each of the characters. They acknowledge that GRRM is a "gardening" style of writer, but them as showrunners have to be "architects" due to the amount of pre-planning that has to go into creating a TV show
  • If they needed to, they could write the final episode right now because they know exactly where the show is heading
  • HBO has never interfered with any of the showrunners' decisions with deaths and plots in the show. They will not interfere with their plans for the show.
  • Gendry is still rowing
  • Season 7 will probably air later than the normal season starting time, because they need more winter-y environments and weather to film in for next season
 

Paganmoon

Member
Speculating due to they're talk about prequels. Behind spoilertags just incase:

Almost reads like there's not going to be anything left to tell a story about after it's over, or at least, very little left, like humanity wins, but there's so little left of them, therefore talks about prequels instead of sequels? Or cause there's actual source material for doing prequels and no material for sequels I guess.
 
Quick bullet point summary from reddit of stuff from the interview with David and Dan in which they mentioned season 7 is pushed back:
  • They regret not showing the Battle of the Green Fork in season 1. They ran out of money and couldn't do it
  • Them and GRRM have had disagreements. But, GRRM understands why they make certain changes for the TV show format.
  • Characters they miss after having killed them off: Jason Momoa as Khal Drogo, Jack Gleeson as Joffrey
  • Battle of the Bastards was hard to film because of the time/money constraints. They didn't have the time for a battle like this in season 1. They praised Miguel Sapochnik for how he directed the episode. They especially liked the scene where Jon was being crushed under the bodies and trying to climb his way out.
  • They confirm that there are only two more seasons are left
  • They don't have a definite episode count for the seasons, but they will be shorter than 10 episodes
  • They know the ending already (duh)
  • 90% of season 6 was material beyond ADWD, in their opinion
  • They haven't thought of a prequel that in-depth due to their workload. But they understand that the world of asoiaf has a lot of possibilities for potential prequels. They haven't thought about the details of a prequel.
  • He didn't want to say how GRRM felt about Jon's resurrection because it might spoil something from TWOW
  • They learned of Hodor's name's origin from GRRM. They know more important information about the rest of the story for each of the characters. They acknowledge that GRRM is a "gardening" style of writer, but them as showrunners have to be "architects" due to the amount of pre-planning that has to go into creating a TV show
  • If they needed to, they could write the final episode right now because they know exactly where the show is heading
  • HBO has never interfered with any of the showrunners' decisions with deaths and plots in the show. They will not interfere with their plans for the show.
  • Gendry is still rowing
  • Season 7 will probably air later than the normal season starting time, because they need more winter-y environments and weather to film in for next season
This is great. D&D got this. 👍
 
Speculating due to they're talk about prequels. Behind spoilertags just incase:

Almost reads like there's not going to be anything left to tell a story about after it's over, or at least, very little left, like humanity wins, but there's so little left of them, therefore talks about prequels instead of sequels? Or cause there's actual source material for doing prequels and no material for sequels I guess.

I think prequels are talked about more because the world building and history are there outlined already. They could make a prequel about the first men, about the conquering of the 7, about Roberts rebellion, etc. There isn't talk of sequels because there is 0 information and it would be 100% original.
 
I don't think prequels would work given that there would be very little written material to take from, and no truly fleshed out characters to work with. Plus a lack of dragons, assuming they don't want to do something like Aegon's Conquest or the Dance.

Robert's Rebellion sounds cool on paper, and while what little we know of the characters in the books is fascinating...I wouldn't have faith in HBO doing that well. Nor would I want a Martin novel on it tbh. There's a level of mystery and lore about the event, and fully fleshing it out would ruin that.
 

mantidor

Member

Walshicus

Member
I don't think prequels would work given that there would be very little written material to take from, and no truly fleshed out characters to work with. Plus a lack of dragons, assuming they don't want to do something like Aegon's Conquest or the Dance.

Robert's Rebellion sounds cool on paper, and while what little we know of the characters in the books is fascinating...I wouldn't have faith in HBO doing that well. Nor would I want a Martin novel on it tbh. There's a level of mystery and lore about the event, and fully fleshing it out would ruin that.

Um, the Hedge Knight? You could easily make a series of it.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
This season is going to sweep the awards for sure. Can't wait for the outrage when Emilia wins. I think she is good though despite all the internet hating her for some reason :p, but I think Lena Headey is better, all the actors are fantastic in this show really, which is surprising giving how many kid actors they have.

Season 5's non-technical, non-directing wins were pretty embarrassing; it'll at least be nice to see it win this season. I really hope they don't just automatically award Dinklage again this season. For as little as he had in season 5, he had even less this time around.
 

Randdalf

Member
Um, the Hedge Knight? You could easily make a series of it.

The trial of seven would be so awesome to see on TV. It might work better as a set of TV movies than a series though.

Talking of trials of seven, I could totally see Cersei's trial ending up as one, instead of the Cleganebowl, especially given the history of the Faith.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
The North condemns Robb for following his heart.

The North makes Jon their king for following his heart.

Do they want a king ruled by emotions or not?
 

Black_Sun

Member
The North condemns Robb for following his heart.

The North makes Jon their king for following his heart.

Do they want a king ruled by emotions or not?

Robb won two different battles and captured Jaime before they made him king.

Jon deserted the Night's Watch and lost the only battle he was in while leading mostly Wildlings against Northern troops. He had to get saved by the Vale.

Jon becoming king wasn't well set up.

Could you really say that season 6 was the story of a man becoming king?
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Could you really say that season 6 was the story of a man becoming king?

I'm not sure there's one aspect of the North's story that entirely worked for me. Even the excellent Lyanna Mormont (ask about your ancestral sword!) and Davos (complains about following kings with Tormund and then shouts King of the North, ask Mel to resurrect Jon, don't ask Mel how Shireen died!) had hiccups. Just a rough storyline from every angle. Kind of strange that it was so poorly laid out considering it was clearly the focal point.

But, yeah, let's anoint the bastard who deserted the Night's Watch, cracked in battle, couldn't recruit one Northern house, and used dark magic to come back from the dead to be our king! Makes perfect sense...
 

Hazmat

Member
I rewatched the entire series recently and was wondering about something from the books (which I'm slowly rereading between other things): Do Jaime and Cersei know that Jon Arryn knew about the children not being Robert's? The show has a scene where they talk about whether or not Arryn told anyone before he died, which feels like a huge red herring given that they didn't kill him.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Quick bullet point summary from reddit of stuff from the interview with David and Dan in which they mentioned season 7 is pushed back:
  • Gendry is still rowing
Gendry is going to be absolutely jacked as fuck in his upper body if he ever hits land. Too bad about leg day, though.
 

mantidor

Member
Robb won two different battles and captured Jaime before they made him king.

Jon deserted the Night's Watch and lost the only battle he was in while leading mostly Wildlings against Northern troops. He had to get saved by the Vale.

Jon becoming king wasn't well set up.

Could you really say that season 6 was the story of a man becoming king?

Jon became king because he is Robb's brother, or basically the northerners prefer a bastard to a girl.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Jon became king because he is Robb's brother, or basically the northerners prefer a bastard to a girl.

But they turned on Robb Stark (and the Stark family) and neither Jon nor Sansa could convince even one Northern family to join their cause. If they cared that Jon was Robb's brother, they would have joined his army before The Bastard Bowl. If Lyanna Mormont cared, she wouldn't have needed Davos to convince her.
 

mantidor

Member
But they turned on Robb Stark (and the Stark family) and neither Jon nor Sansa could convince even one Northern family to join their cause.

And then Bear Girl shamed them into admitting they were wrong.

It was lame anyway. Everyone likes Jon, everyone likes bear girl, so I guess people are giving it a pass. I just pretend Robb's will exist in the show and explains this.
 

Kozak

Banned
And then Bear Girl shamed them into admitting they were wrong.

It was lame anyway. Everyone likes Jon, everyone likes bear girl, so I guess people are giving it a pass. I just pretend Robb's will exist in the show and explains this.

Yeah it was heaps lame

No impact at all for me.
 

GorillaJu

Member
They all misplaced their ambitions in Jon. He knows it, Sansa knows it. It's going to be a major part of the story going forward.
 

Turin

Banned
They all misplaced their ambitions in Jon. He knows it, Sansa knows it. It's going to be a major part of the story going forward.

I doubt it. He'll magically be smarter(he should have gotten wiser by now anyway) or he'll simply win whatever intrigue takes place in the North due to some convenience because the plot requires it.
 
The North condemns Robb for following his heart.

The North makes Jon their king for following his heart.

Do they want a king ruled by emotions or not?

History is written by the victor. :p

But now that the Starks won, the Northern Lords are back to riding on their dicks so Robb is once again a Tragic Martyr.
 

Jigorath

Banned
Robb won two different battles and captured Jaime before they made him king.

Jon deserted the Night's Watch and lost the only battle he was in while leading mostly Wildlings against Northern troops. He had to get saved by the Vale.

Jon becoming king wasn't well set up.

Could you really say that season 6 was the story of a man becoming king?

When the Northerners tell stories about the Battle of the Bastards, they're not going to bring up the Vale or Sansa. They'll talk about how Jon valiantly charged into battle against insurmountable odds and came out victorious. How he liberated the North from the evil Boltons. This is a guy who protected the Wall from a hundred thousand wildlings and rose from the dead after being viciously mutinied. Not even Robb could come back from the dead.

Nobody's going to be accurate about this shit. This is how legends work. And Jon's got to be a fookin legend up in the North by now.
 
The North condemns Robb for following his heart.

The North makes Jon their king for following his heart.

Do they want a king ruled by emotions or not?
Walder frey (not of the north) betrayed him due to broken betrothal. Roose Bolton took advantage of the weakness. The north never had a problem with his marriage.
 

duckroll

Member
Lord Glover specifically mentions Robb chasing tail as a reason why he wouldn't join the Stark cause.

No. Glover blames Robb for fucking the North up over a woman. Him chasing tail caused the Red Wedding. Jon saved the North by facing up against Ramsay and avenging the Re Wedding.
 

Speevy

Banned
Like it or not, D and D have completely justified their narrative with lots of story.

The northerners are cowards driven by fear. Like beat dogs, they cowered to Ramsay and refused Jon's pleas for help.

When Jon got rid of the big bully who was terrorizing him, they all banded together and proclaimed him the next big thing, having done what they were afraid to do.

The way D and D have characterized the north, they would totally ignore tradition and proclaim Jon the king in the north. They don't have the balls to do otherwise.
 
Like it or not, D and D have completely justified their narrative with lots of story.

The northerners are cowards driven by fear. Like beat dogs, they cowered to Ramsay and refused Jon's pleas for help.

When Jon got rid of the big bully who was terrorizing him, they all banded together and proclaimed him the next big thing, having done what they were afraid to do.

The way D and D have characterized the north, they would totally ignore tradition and proclaim Jon the king in the north. They don't have the balls to do otherwise.

Yeah, it mostly rubs people in this thread the wrong way because as book readers we wanted to see the Norther Conspiracy elements from Dance (which is understandable). The actions of the Northern Lords are totally sensible as they are presented in the show though.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Per Sansa's argument with Davos, the North was loyal. That's a show element, not just in the books. It was only this season that they inexplicably became cowards. The Northern Lords were weak because the plot needed it, not because they were established that way from the beginning.

They didn't justify the Northern story because D&D change characters motivations to suit their whims.
 
Per Sansa's argument with Davos, the North was loyal. That's a show element, not just in the books. It was only this season that they inexplicably became cowards. The Northern Lords were weak because the plot needed it, not because they were established that way from the beginning.

They didn't justify the Northern story because D&D change characters motivations to suit their whims.

Sansa made judgments about people she's never met (or met when she was a child). Stuff like Ramsay instilling fear into the houses in S5 seems to carry more weight to me than a declarative statement from Sansa that appears to be pretty uninformed.

The northern lords were afraid of risking more lives of their already battered households that they rule.
 

Kozak

Banned
Like it or not, D and D have completely justified their narrative with lots of story.

The northerners are cowards driven by fear. Like beat dogs, they cowered to Ramsay and refused Jon's pleas for help.

When Jon got rid of the big bully who was terrorizing him, they all banded together and proclaimed him the next big thing, having done what they were afraid to do.

The way D and D have characterized the north, they would totally ignore tradition and proclaim Jon the king in the north. They don't have the balls to do otherwise.

I think a big part of the show for the viewer is understanding and coming to terms that people like Ned, Stannis, Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, are a dying breed and the values they preached simply do not exist. Northerners are not loyal to a fault, nobody actually gives a fuck about honour or vows etc. Those values died with them.

Seems a bit hard for some people (and myself) to accept though which I think is understandable as The North and their supposed values was what everyone was rooting for in the early seasons.

Personally, I feel betrayed but not in the sense of "fuck this shit", more so "fuck these guys"

Steelyuhas said:
Yeah, it mostly rubs people in this thread the wrong way because as book readers we wanted to see the Norther Conspiracy elements from Dance (which is understandable). The actions of the Northern Lords are totally sensible as they are presented in the show though.

I agree. it seems to mainly be an issue of not being able to separate Book from Shows.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
If the Northern houses are no longer loyal than we'll see that play out in the coming seasons. Or else it will just be more shoddy character development.
 

Kozak

Banned
If the Northern houses are no longer loyal than we'll see that play out in the coming seasons. Or else it will just be more shoddy character development.

I don't think anyone is arguing that they will betray Jon..

Just that if Jon lost a battle, they'd be quick to jump on the winning guys team.

I don't think they're going to waste time showing that as they've already done so.
 

Forkball

Member
It makes sense out of context, but when looking at the show as a whole, the northerners do come off as a bunch of idiots. Here's a brief run through of the overall attitude of other Northern houses in the SHOW ONLY:

+From the start, we are introduced to the idea that the North is culturally and actually somewhat ethnically different from the south. There is a clear division between the two, and the Starks are the principal window into Northern culture and ideals.

+The North is very willing to straight up go to war when Ned is captured. However, we get a sense that the Northern houses are very proud and the Umbers threaten to abandon Robb for the mere fact that they would have to march behind another house. Regardless, the GREATJON becomes one of Robb's greatest proponents and initiates the whole King in the North thing. The North is now in full out open rebellion due to their desire to independently rule themselves due to the vast differences between themselves and the southern court.

+Robb is successful in battles, yet draws ire from Rickard Karstark due to keeping Jaime alive while his sons were killed. Karstark snaps, and then Robb executes him, which leads to the Karstarks marching home. This is a big crack in the idea that the North is always fiercely loyal. Maybe the Karstarks are just assholes (they are).

+Bunch of dudes get slaughtered in the Red Wedding. We don't really know what other major Northern houses have victims at this point. The Boltons betray the Starks and in turn get the North.

+Boltons express the worry that if any Starks are alive, they could be used as a catalyst to rise up against the Boltons. This conveys the idea that the Northern houses are just naturally loyal to the Starks, or at the very least hate the Boltons for betraying them (understandable. I'd also hate the dude who murdered my family).

+Ramsay marries Sansa in order to further legitimize and stabilize his rule over the North. What's the point of this from the Bolton's POV if there wasn't this idea that the Starks were the true leaders of the North and that no one really liked the Boltons? You could argue that they just want to keep a leash on Sansa so no one can use her I suppose, but in that scenario she doesn't really need to be married to Ramsay at all.

+Despite the apparent fear of Northern houses turning on the Boltons, no one decides to join Stannis. Literally no one. So the Boltons were basically paranoid over nothing. The Boltons easily win.

+Once again, Roose is still concerned that without Sansa, the North will rise against the Boltons. Karstark Jr. even says as much when he reports that Sansa is going to Castle Black. Roose also scoffs at the notion of killing the Lord Commander because every house in the North would rise against him for such an affront to Northern traditions. Roose is then immediately poisoned by his enemies.

+When ZomJon and Sansa try to recruit houses, no one wants to join. Glover says its because their decision to march with Robb only lead to Northern deaths and the Boltons helped them take back their castle. So is Roose Bolton an idiot? The entire idea that the North could rebel against him at any moment is assuredly false since Jon gets almost no one to help him out. Smalljon is also an asshole who hated his father for no reason.

+When Snow retakes Winterfell, all the Northern houses are like "I'm sowwy" and proclaim Jon KING IN THE NORTH. So the Northern houses go from wanting to be independent, to thinking it was a dumbass idea, to thinking "Hey, we were right the first time!" They are the biggest bunch of flip floppers, they should just be called House Croc.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Like it or not, D and D have completely justified their narrative with lots of story.

The northerners are cowards driven by fear. Like beat dogs, they cowered to Ramsay and refused Jon's pleas for help.

When Jon got rid of the big bully who was terrorizing him, they all banded together and proclaimed him the next big thing, having done what they were afraid to do.

The way D and D have characterized the north, they would totally ignore tradition and proclaim Jon the king in the north. They don't have the balls to do otherwise.

They've failed to justify it for two big reasons.

1) No one would or should trust Ramsay to to be anything but an I dependable and crazy liege lord. Keeping your head down will not be enough. The Boltons helped instigate the Red Wedding and helped get all their relatives killed. As Machiavelli said, one must above all else avoid being hated. By making the Bolton involvement with the Red Wedding public, they have completely failed that. Maybe it makes sense to not put a Stark as their liege lord but they should still be seeking to replace Ramsay with someone else because Ramsay is an unstable lunatic.

So Lord Umber knowing that Ramsay is father-killer and from a family that's completely okay with murdering others while spitting on traditions and oaths should be making him wary of Ramsay. But the Smalljon tries to relate to him by saying he hated his father too and tries to ally with this unstable lunatic when there were a lot better ways about it.

Lord Karstark and Lord Umber should've her teaming up to back stab Ramsay.

2) The story is inconsistent. Every season except for the new season (so even the ones after the Red Wedding) have gone on about how loyal the North is to the Starks to the point that Roose is willing to start a war with the Lannisters to cement Bolton rule by marrying Sansa to Ramsay. So either Roose is an idiot or this was a very recent change that struck D & D while writing season 6.

(Also Ramsay being this evil in the show really bothers because in the books even Roose knows that Ramsay can never hope to rule the North and thinks he's an idiot if he thinks otherwise. Stupid Evil does not get you rewarded and should not get you rewarded in the show. It will only bring you down. In the show, Ramsay is brought down because of external factors and nothing to do with his own flaws.)
 
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