WTF, where are they getting this idea from? Architectural writing's main benefit is that there isn't any plot holes, that they've thought things out. There's way more plot holes in the show than in the book, and half of their silly decisions are explained by characters saying "I dunno why I did this or didn't do that, I just dunno". Because nobody knows why, because it doesn't make sense.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 Offseason Thread
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Moff
Member
maybe they are just bad architects
BENIOFF: "Weve known for quite sometime that the Mad King had planted some caches of wildfire throughout the city. And when Jaime is telling Brienne the story of the last moments of the Mad King he tells her that this wildfire was planted below the major boulevards and he actually says, you know, the Sept of Baelor. And Dan and I started talking about this as potentially Cerseis plan, you know, for how she finally overcomes her adversaries."
Even if it's show only, it's still a good sequence and was especially cinematic.
Even if it's show only, it's still a good sequence and was especially cinematic.
They just mean the writing style, GRRM gets terribly off-track all the time, with new story threads popping up everywhere whenever he has an idea. D&D have to prepare everything in advance and have to keep limitations of the medium in mind while creating GoT and do that on a very tight schedule too. They don't have a luxury of infinite time like GRRM has, they have to have a plan and then they execute it, that's what they meant by that.
...though with season 5 finale winning Emmy over Mad Men series finale they might be overestimating their writing abilities too.
No it was Stannis that protected the Night's Watch from a hundred thousand men. Doesn't matter though because none of the Northeners helped him out in the show.
And it was Thorne who led the Wall in the show not Jon. He was just a grunt that helped for about an hour.
And do any of the Northerners actually believe Jon came back from the dead? None of them have even talked about it.
They either think he's a deserter of the Night's Watch, was raised from the dead by a red witch, or both. And they couldn't care less.
Jon's resurrection is one of the biggest head scratchers of the season.
The guy who wrote the Meereenese Blot said it best:
"I find the show's handling of this season's Jon plotline absolutely befuddling. They seem to have killed and resurrected him because GRRM did, but they seem to have had absolutely no idea how to handle it, and no interest in exploring the importance or implications of what happened. Instead they used it only as a plot device to get Jon to quit the Night's Watch (and made everyone in the North and at the Wall weirdly completely okay with that)."
"I hoped Jons death and resurrection would make him more like ADWD Jon a fascinating, charismatic, often angry figure grappling with serious moral dilemmas about how to use his power. Instead hes the same old drip who just has to be his good, pure-hearted self and give inspiring speeches all the time. What a disappointment."
Yep. Its only utility was to hoodwink viewers and get him to leave the Watch. Some people say he behaves differently but I don't see it.
So, I was watching "Unbowed, Unbent and Unbroken" with my girlfriend yesterday and right after the episode ended (Sansa rape), she turned to me and said: "That didn't make any sense, why would Baelish ever leave Sansa with that guy?" It's not just the book readers who see the flaws in D&D's writing.
This bit annoyed me, well everything about the north annoyed me
, but this line specially, Jon avenged shit, Roose was killed by Ramsay and Walder Frey by Arya.probably the worst unjustified 'shock' moment in the show.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
This is such a good post.
I would only note that it's not JUST inconsistent writing, but that some of this might be a feature rather than a bug. Like, unintentionally finding GRRM's problem with fantasy cliches by showing that entire swaths of kingdoms don't magically align behind one person without a few problems along the way.
I think they focus too much on the "bad" stuff, it's like their own cliche. We know Jon and Sansa managed to recruit some houses, we know some houses are fiercy loyal and we know someone somewhere cared about the Sansa marriage, but these things are mentioned, often in passing, rather than shown, and only the "bad" things are explicitly presented.
That would be the Shireen burning.
Smalljon handing Rickon to Ramsay also has to be up there.
"Hey viewers, here's this character you haven't seen since Season 3, but now you're going to care about him because reasons"
Dash_Riprock
Member
No one outside the North knew about Ramsay's reputation. Hell, most people within the North didn't know it until he started flaying lords who didn't pay their taxes.
It's funny how people still talk about Littlefinger like he knows everything. Like, he'll reveal Jon's parentage. That wouldn't make sense! The show established he doesn't have great (or even good) sources so he obviously doesn't know who Jon's parents are.
Has the show ever portrayed Littlefinger as someone who knows things he shouldn't?
Damn I hope he's not handled like that in the books... too much streamlining
LF passed through the castle where the Cerwyns got flayed.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
But Littlefinger didn't know? Reeeeeally?
Well, everyone knew that the Boltons betrayed and murdered every Stark that they were close to. Baelish would also know that marrying this northern noble girl off to them will entail sex/rape to produce an heir. Not knowing the extent of Ramsay's cruelty doesn't really make it make sense seeing as Sansa seems to be a huge part of his plan (in addition to her being the object of his displaced love for Catelyn).
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Maybe I misremember, but didn't the show go to great lengths to show him as a legitimate contender in the game of thrones because of his massive reach via the crown's coffers on top of his considerable under-the-table ability to make things happen via his brothels?
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
The sigil for the Boltons is literally a flayed corpse hanging upside down. C'mon.
Oldest Snake
Member
Whether Littlefinger knew or not is largely irrelevant as of his confession to Sansa. If his long term goal is to sit the throne with her at his side then he didn't need to send her to Winterfell at all. As of ADWD his plan involves Sansa convincing HtH to take the Vale to reclaim Winterfell in her name, so I'm sure between the two of them they could have convinced Sweetrobin to do the same.
Are you actually saying Littlefinger wouldn't have done the slightest bit of research on who he was handing Sansa over to? This is the guy who orchestrated Joffreys murder by getting Lady Olenna to suspect Joffrey was dangerous through spreading rumours. He manipulates Lysa into murdering Jon and gets Cat to arrest Tyrion.
But he's just going to give his hard won prize to a Bolton bastard he knows absolutely nothing about. Haha
They seem to suggest that Sansa was to enter into the Bolton family as some sort of double agent and eventually destroy them, "avenge them" and all that.
Of course it's a pretty lousy plan and in no way had the show portrayed Littlefinger as that incompetent up to that point to be honest.
He openly threatens Cersei in the earlier seasons for no reason and has over the top verbal spars with Varys, pretty much baring his true character and wish for the throne. He kills Lysa with no plan but a lame explanation that would have clearly failed him.
He is a huge idiot.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Do you work for / with Radio Westeros?
Watch the ep again.
Littlefinger comments to Ramsay that he knows a lot about everyone but he doesnt know much about Ramsay.
Then Ramsay explains hes a bastard but recently legitimized.
Nope! It's just an example of people who go incredibly deep on A Song of Ice and Fire. And instead of revealing holes or inconsistencies when they dig, they reveal more elements of the plot that aren't apparent the first (or second) time you read. It takes a remarkable work of fiction to hold up under that extreme scrutiny.
That's out of character, though, isn't it? We're told for the first four seasons that Littlefinger has extensive knowledge and does meticulous planning, which is how he rose from nothing to be a Westrosi Lord. But then, after he secures his most precious prize, he hands her over to someone he knows nothing about? The father of whom killed Sansa's brother and mother?
That doesn't sound like who Littlefinger was before that moment. The writers made him suddenly stupid because they wanted Sansa to be in Ramsay's hands instead of coming up with an organic solution that fits into the story they had constructed.
I thought they made it obvious that Littlefinger knew nothing about Ramsey so I'm surprised people missed it. It's not like Littlefinger knows everything that happens everywhere.
Also it seemed part of his plan for giving Sansa to the Boltons was to start another war. He told Cersei about her right away when he got to KL.
LF's plan for Sansa was a dumb, horrible plan. He consolidates power in the North for the Boltons, and I guess he plans on assaulting Winterfell with his Southern forces in the winter? He's lucky that El Shireeno lasted as long as it did. I also have a problem with it for the same reason I have a problem with Umber just giving Rickon away - you're giving away your best chip when it comes to the North.
What's the next step in your master plan.
What's the next step in your master plan.
WrenchNinja
Member
I like how the writers couldn't even have him answer Sansa when she calls him out earlier in the season cause they're not even sure what the fuck he's doing
So I finally gave in to the temptation and subscribed to HBO Now to watch season 6.(just watched ep 6)
Figured it's better to just watch it then be spoiled while waiting on GRRM and his slow writing...
Overall I am enjoying this season much more than season 5 because I don't have much source material to compare it too, although the few things that are from the books(most notably the kings moot) kinda sucked, and Benjen being coldhands... Didn't GRRM say that he wasn't?
Anyways with them reviving Jon Snow(who I expect will come back the same way in TWOW) and Gregor, whilst also suddenly bringing the BwB back, gives me hope for LSH(it also appears that they are adapting Jaime and briennes AFFC and ADWD story lines, minus all the "a highborn maid of three and ten" tedium)
Anyways I feel like the book will be so much different that I could still enjoy this show, hell it already was with s5 either killing off(Selmy) or just straight up leaving out(Jon Con, Aegon etc) such important book characters, not to mention the Dorne plot which does not resemble GRRM's story even a little.
So there it is, I have said in the past that I would wait, but as GRRM loves to say, words are wind...
Figured it's better to just watch it then be spoiled while waiting on GRRM and his slow writing...
Overall I am enjoying this season much more than season 5 because I don't have much source material to compare it too, although the few things that are from the books(most notably the kings moot) kinda sucked, and Benjen being coldhands... Didn't GRRM say that he wasn't?
Anyways with them reviving Jon Snow(who I expect will come back the same way in TWOW) and Gregor, whilst also suddenly bringing the BwB back, gives me hope for LSH(it also appears that they are adapting Jaime and briennes AFFC and ADWD story lines, minus all the "a highborn maid of three and ten" tedium)
Anyways I feel like the book will be so much different that I could still enjoy this show, hell it already was with s5 either killing off(Selmy) or just straight up leaving out(Jon Con, Aegon etc) such important book characters, not to mention the Dorne plot which does not resemble GRRM's story even a little.
So there it is, I have said in the past that I would wait, but as GRRM loves to say, words are wind...
electroshockwave
Member
Show Littlefinger knows in intimate detail how the Hound had his face burnt but he doesn't know who he is marrying his object of infatuation (and his future queen) off to.
Honestly Aegon existing is the dumbest thing in the entire series IMO. I'm happy they left that shit out.
I actually like it in that it will inevitably bring a different kind of conflict for Dany in her desire to sit the Iron Throne, before Aegon, it was that they stole her birthright to rule, and that the people will rally around the "true Queen" of Westeros, it brings the question of how she and these "hidden Targ loyalists" will react to someone with a better claim than her. IMO it enhances her narrative, but if you said that about Quentyn, I would absolutely agree, he was literally an useless character in ADWD.
Not to mention, he actually you know, started an invasion of Westeros. Something Dany has failed to do for 5+ novels...
electroshockwave
Member
I'm pretty sure Aegon is a ploy to put a Blackfyre on the throne.
Yeah I've seen that theory, but I prefer to take him at face value, it would be a twist in and of itself.
I think the show will merge his and Jon's story lines tbh, of course I also thought in s5 that they were merging Arienne and Elarria's storyline, so what do I know...
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Why? He's an imposter and in some ways a plot device to turn Dorne against Dany.
Aegon was one of the best things to come out of ADWD.
Now Daenerys won't roll over all of Westeros like in the show. The show might as well give Daenerys the seven kingdoms now. She's just a straight up good guy and savior now.
Atraveller
Banned
With the removal of Aegon's character in the show, it seems like all of book Varys's efforts have been diverted on to Daenerys. Maybe she would play the false savior while Jon is the real Azor Ahai.
There are only two answers and neither will appease Sansa so why say anything
1. He knew Ramsay was a sadist and he was reckless risking her life
2. He didn't know which shatters her illusion of him as someone who is always in control
Sometimes the most astute thing to do is be silent and not dig a bigger hole for yourself.
IMO whether he knew about Ramsay or not is irrelevant. He clearly preps Sansa that she is there to make an heir which in his mind gives him 9 months to execute a plan before she is in serious danger.
Some other stuff on the North
First Roose Bolton. I think he is a cautious but calculating man in both. He knows his hold on the North is tenuous, to shore it up he allies with Littlefinger for Sansa, sends Ramsay to root out the rest of the Iron Born and make a statement when he skins Lord Cerwyn. It is a three pronged message. The Boltons are the legitimate rulers of the North. They will aid those who need it, they will kill those who oppose them. But Roose is cautious to a fault, with Stannis he wants to hide in Winterfell while Ramsay suggests using their superior knowledge of the conditions and terrain to mount a small guerilla assault on his supplies. He doesn't want to deal with the Night's Watch and particularly Jon. When he had the chance he only sent one man who failed in his mission because he did not want to break the radition of being seen to interfere with the NW.
However he drastically mis-read the situation. The Wo5K and the Iron Born has re-drawn the power balance across the North and given rise to young, ambitious Lords who are looking to carve up the North between them. Jon reads the situation correctly that between the Umbers, Boltons and Karstarks they have enough men to control the entire North against weakened smaller houses who dare not rise against them or they will be crushed. Ramsay sees his father falter and takes him out. For a man who broke tradition so boldly at the Red Wedding Roose does seem blinded to the new cut-throat reality of the North.
As for the Northern houses actions. They ignored Stannis because they view him as a foreign invader worshipping a false god and frankly he is not a very good at rallying men to his cause. Even Jon and Sansa are not able to rally many troops with their name. It could simply be the North is tired of fighting, winter is coming and preparations need to be made.
Proclaiming Jon as their King does seem desperate or at least foolish on their part but maybe Northern secession from the 7 Kingdoms has been an unseen cause. The lords were quick enough to proclaim Robb king and then Jon, maybe they resent being ruled by the South. It is certainly not the logical thing to do but the characters in the show (and books) are not logicians. Just like in real life not everyone acts in their own best interest at all times.
As for Jon he does seem at least slightly different. He seemed intent on marching on Winterfell no matter the odds. Now is that because he believes in fate or because he is no longer scared to die? It certainly seems like fate now he is King, but Stannis believed the same and it didn't work out.
So after watching the season finale, I would like to share some thoughts.
Jaime's AFFC plot was actually pretty much the same in the show, which surprised me(although killing off the blackfish is super annoying), though it ended differently
Show Dorne still sucks ass and makes no sense
Battle of the bastards may be the single greatest battle scene in any TV show or movie, truly magnificent with its ugliness brutality and honesty in depicting war.
Apparently Hodor's origin story will also be the same in TWOW and it's such a fucked up origin
Cersei on the iron throne is fucking stupid and goes completely against the narrative of the books with her going insane as she loses power, but at least it will be a very short reign
I really wish Aegon was in the show, really adds another level to Dany's story arc.
Dany/Tyrion being so whitewashed in the show makes me not enjoy their story nearly as much
Poor Rickon... Show version of Quentyn, there as plot fodder who you know will just die without accomplishing anything
All the Jon Snow theories turned out to be correct it seems, what will the fans do now that we can't keep theorizing on him? NVM WE STILL CAN
Arya being merged with LSH is really disappointing as it completely does away with 4 season's of character development to make her a character us book readers really wanted, but not in this way at all.
Overall good season, helps that I couldn't endlessly compare it to what happened in the books subconsciously, and could still enjoy it for what it was, as I'm sure I will for The Winds of Winter years from now.
Jaime's AFFC plot was actually pretty much the same in the show, which surprised me(although killing off the blackfish is super annoying), though it ended differently
Show Dorne still sucks ass and makes no sense
Battle of the bastards may be the single greatest battle scene in any TV show or movie, truly magnificent with its ugliness brutality and honesty in depicting war.
Apparently Hodor's origin story will also be the same in TWOW and it's such a fucked up origin
Cersei on the iron throne is fucking stupid and goes completely against the narrative of the books with her going insane as she loses power, but at least it will be a very short reign
I really wish Aegon was in the show, really adds another level to Dany's story arc.
Dany/Tyrion being so whitewashed in the show makes me not enjoy their story nearly as much
Poor Rickon... Show version of Quentyn, there as plot fodder who you know will just die without accomplishing anything
All the Jon Snow theories turned out to be correct it seems, what will the fans do now that we can't keep theorizing on him? NVM WE STILL CAN
Arya being merged with LSH is really disappointing as it completely does away with 4 season's of character development to make her a character us book readers really wanted, but not in this way at all.
Overall good season, helps that I couldn't endlessly compare it to what happened in the books subconsciously, and could still enjoy it for what it was, as I'm sure I will for The Winds of Winter years from now.
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