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[GymWolf]

Lumen is another stepping stone with RTX being the top.

if lumen is lighter on the performance compared to rtx, i'm super ok with it being used for the entire gen, it still looks far better than any old school lights\shadow system on current gen.

we can't have native 4k, big jump in graphics, maybe 60 frame and rtx with these consoles, people have to understand this sooner or later.

maybe with anal sex and ps5 pro refresh in 2024, maybe...

 

[MetalAlien]

if lumen is lighter on the performance compared to rtx, i'm super ok with it being used for the entire gen, it still looks far better than any old school lights\shadow system on current gen.

we can't have native 4k, big jump in graphics, maybe 60 frame and rtx with these consoles, people have to understand this sooner or later.

That's fine. Just remember ray/path tracing/RTX will always be the goal.

 

[GymWolf]

That's fine. Just remember ray/path tracing/RTX will always be the goal.

for devs maybe, majority of people on pc still disable rtx to get better framerate\details\resolution and i'm pretty sure 90% of gamers are fully ok with lumen instead of rtx if this means having a big jump in the other graphical aspect.

next step is something similar to dlss 2.0 on console, native 4k is still too heavy.

 

[-Arcadia-]

UE5 tech demo is using RT for GI, just more limited and not HW accelerated.

Everything is explained here

For a quicker reference:

"Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing," explains Daniel Wright, technical director of graphics at Epic. "Lumen traces rays against a scene representation consisting of signed distance fields, voxels and height fields. As a result, it requires no special ray tracing hardware."

To achieve fully dynamic real-time GI, Lumen has a specific hierarchy. "Lumen uses a combination of different techniques to efficiently trace rays," continues Wright. "Screen-space traces handle tiny details, mesh signed distance field traces handle medium-scale light transfer and voxel traces handle large scale light transfer."

 

[GymWolf]

For a quicker reference:

"Lumen uses ray tracing to solve indirect lighting, but not triangle ray tracing," explains Daniel Wright, technical director of graphics at Epic. "Lumen traces rays against a scene representation consisting of signed distance fields, voxels and height fields. As a result, it requires no special ray tracing hardware."

To achieve fully dynamic real-time GI, Lumen has a specific hierarchy. "Lumen uses a combination of different techniques to efficiently trace rays," continues Wright. "Screen-space traces handle tiny details, mesh signed distance field traces handle medium-scale light transfer and voxel traces handle large scale light transfer."

i don't understand a single word but it sound very smart

 

[MetalAlien]

for devs maybe, majority of people on pc still disable rtx to get better framerate\details\resolution and i'm pretty sure 90% of gamers are fully ok with lumen instead of rtx if this means having a big jump in the other graphical aspect.

Dread it. Run from it. RTX still arrives.

 

[GymWolf]

Dread it. Run from it. RTX still arrives.

i'm not against rtx in general, i'm against rtx in 10-12tf machines.
when i'm gonna upgrade my gpu with a 3000 series i'm gonna utilize rtx myself if i can still maintain 4k60 frame in heavy games.

it's gonna be interesting too see sex games with better rtx (because the console seems more capable) vs ps5 games with inferior lights and shadows but maybe better raw details.

 

[-Arcadia-]

i don't understand a single word but it sound very smart

I struggle too at times, hahaha.

I really appreciate Digital Foundry. Watching their videos + searching a bit when something comes up that I don’t understand, has helped a ton. A year ago, I barely knew what a teraflop was.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Everything the consoles do is streamlined compared to PC. Both the PS5 and XSX SSDs are linked straight onto the APU. This cant happen on PC.

Am I wrong in thinking that the NVmE controller of all Ryzen processors is in the CPU itself?

 

[GymWolf]

I struggle too at times, hahaha.

I really appreciate Digital Foundry. Watching their videos + searching a bit when something comes up that I don’t understand, has helped a ton. A year ago, I barely knew what a teraflop was.

i still confuse flops with flaps, the thing that make airplanes change direction...

 

[Oddspeak]

Said it before in a different thread, but I'll say it again here.

The biggest two takeaways from this demo that I hope devs notice:
1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation until we're able to do really good RT without the major performance hit.
2. We don't need native 4K for eye-popping fidelity. 1440p with good upscaling will be indistinguishable to a hell of a lot of people.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation until we're able to do really good RT without the major performance hit.

I really hope this ends up landing across the devscape. RT is really cool, and I think will be an awesome facet to gaming visuals at some point, but right now it is pretty expensive and probably will continue to be expensive until next-next-gen. At least for FULL BLOWN RT

Hopefully each console has competent upscaling as well

 

[StreetsofBeige]

1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation until we're able to do really good RT without the major performance hit.

I really hope this ends up landing across the devscape. RT is really cool, and I think will be an awesome facet to gaming visuals at some point, but right now it is pretty expensive and probably will continue to be expensive until next-next-gen. At least for FULL BLOWN RT

Hopefully each console has competent upscaling as well

But if you take away RT, what are all the game companies and graphic designers going to brag about in videos? RT is the big thing now and there's no turning back.

 

[ethomaz]

Tim said again why they choose PS5 over PC to demo Nanite.

 

[MetalAlien]

But if you take away RT, what are all the game companies and graphic designers going to brag about in videos? RT is the big thing now and there's no turning back.

and the more hype it gets the harder they will try and iron out the details. Win win.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Tim said again why they choose PS5 over PC to demo Nanite.

That makes sense, but I think the real question, or what people really want to know is why PS5 over XsX? Additionally. can the XsX run it as well as PS5 (if it needs scaling down, by how much, etc). We understand what benefits the PS5's architecture have over a standard gaming PC but I think what a lot of us want to know is how the XsX's architecture compares to PS5’s, not just on paper, but in practice, which a demo comparison would shine some light on (if we ever see it running on XsX).

 

[Xplainin]

Am I wrong in thinking that the NVmE controller of all Ryzen processors is in the CPU itself?

I'm not sure.

 

[Myths]

Tech has really come far. Outside of games, RT would take a dog’s age to compute for a scene in 3DS Max and Maya. Now we’re talking certain implementations of RT... running in games... in real time. That’s big.


Even this engine and the technique(s) it applies is still a step toward optimized and (mostly) accurate lighting solutions.

 

[Lethal01]

Said it before in a different thread, but I'll say it again here.

The biggest two takeaways from this demo that I hope devs notice:
1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation until we're able to do really good RT without the major performance hit.

Nah, still doesn't look as good as raytracing and has a bunch of the same screenspace artifacts that have been ruining the image for the last decade. Hopefully using lumen for GI gives will let them atleast use it for reflections.

 

[Xplainin]

That makes sense, but I think the real question, or what people really want to know is why PS5 over XsX? Additionally. can the XsX run it as well as PS5 (if it needs scaling down, by how much, etc). We understand what benefits the PS5's architecture have over a standard gaming PC but I think a lot of us want to know is how the XsX's architecture compares to it in practice, which a demo comparison would shine some light on (if we ever see it running on XsX).

I think it's going to be awhile before we really find out how the two different approaches MS and Sony have done compare.
The 100gb of virtual memory through XSX Velocity Architecture is yet to be flushed out, so how will that work within games.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Nah, still doesn't look as good as raytracing and has a bunch of the same screenspace artifacts that have been ruining the image for the last decade. Hopefully using lumen for GI gives will let them atleast use it for reflections.

I doubt ray tracing would look noticeably better bar removing the artifacts from screenspace. That said rtx minecraft had raytracing lighting update lag that is just as jarring if not more so than the imperceptible artifacts from lumen.

On the slow motion zoom in from DF yeah you can see a minor shadowing artifact, but while watching the video it is very hard to notice.

Nah, still doesn't look as good as raytracing and has a bunch of the same screenspace artifacts that have been ruining the image for the last decade. Hopefully using lumen for GI gives will let them atleast use it for reflections.

We would have to look side by side, but even in many rtx demos the difference is nearly negligible vs this new global illumination, it probably is imperceptible bar removing screenspace artifacts.

That said lumen does not have the temporal lag in lighting update artifact that current ray tracing has, lumen updates lighting even in drastic changes extremely fast

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

double post

 

[Lethal01]

Slap raytracing on this demo and it will run at 10 fps 1440p, if that. [it already runs at 30 fps 1440p and below]

Yes, We need to advance ray tracing tech asap.

 

[Ascend]

Said it before in a different thread, but I'll say it again here.

The biggest two takeaways from this demo that I hope devs notice:
1. We don't need raytracing tanking framerates to get great lighting. Lumen can keep us satiated for a generation until we're able to do really good RT without the major performance hit.
2. We don't need native 4K for eye-popping fidelity. 1440p with good upscaling will be indistinguishable to a hell of a lot of people.

nVidia will definitely keep pushing for RT though.

I do wonder if the RT hardware in the GPUs of both nVidia and AMD can somehow be used to accelerate how the GI works in the demo. Doesn't seem likely though.

 

[Lethal01]

I doubt ray tracing would look noticeably better bar removing the artifacts from screenspace. That said rtx minecraft had raytracing lighting update lag that is just as jarring if not more so than the imperceptible artifacts from lumen.

On the slow motion zoom in from DF yeah you can see a minor shadowing artifact, but while watching the video it is very hard to notice.


We would have to look side by side, but even in many rtx demos the difference is nearly negligible vs this new global illumination, it probably is imperceptible bar removing screenspace artifacts.

That said lumen does not have the temporal lag in lighting update artifact that current ray tracing has, lumen updates lighting even in drastic changes extremely fast

Well people say that Raytraced reflections don't look noticeable better, I disagree.
"Lumen does not have the temporal lag"
Is this a joke? They literally showcase the temporal lag while saying it updates instantly, They move the sun and then it takes seconds for the bounced lighting to finish updating. It's less apparent where you don't have full control and can't do things to purposefully break it.

For the least it needs some raytraced shadows/AO since that lack of that was the first thing to jump out at me.

 

[Lethal01]

nVidia will definitely keep pushing for RT though.

I do wonder if the RT hardware in the GPUs of both nVidia and AMD can somehow be used to accelerate how the GI works in the demo. Doesn't seem likely though.

For the least we know that they can work together so perhaps they can do what battlefield did for it's reflections and only raytrace the parts that screenspace data can't fill

 

[ethomaz]

Am I wrong in thinking that the NVmE controller of all Ryzen processors is in the CPU itself?

NVMe is just the software.
A protocol of communication like TCP/IP but for SSD communication.

Both the I/O controller (that can be on motherboard or on CPU die) and the SSD internal controller needs to know how to communicate via NVMe.

It is an alternative to SCSI and ATA.

 

[Insane Metal]

It's kind of amazing that the statue from the demo has 16 million triangles. I remember back in the PS2 era all the talk around polygons. PS2 was anywhere from 5 to 10 million, GC 12M and XB1 30 million. IIRC. But those were 'raw' numbers. Now we have a console running 485 statues, each with 16 million triangles, and a lot more for the rest of the scenery. Amazing shit.

 

[MetalAlien]

It's kind of amazing that the statue from the demo has 16 million triangles. I remember back in the PS2 era all the talk around polygons. PS2 was anywhere from 5 to 10 million, GC 12M and XB1 30 million. IIRC. But those were 'raw' numbers. Now we have a console running 485 statues, each with 16 million triangles, and a lot more for the rest of the scenery. Amazing shit.

Yea pretty much at this point is there any CGI from the 90s we can't do in real time?

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

For the least it needs some raytraced shadows/AO since that lack of that was the first thing to jump out at me.

You do know that outside of small shadows, there are some forms of ray tracing implemented, and similar approximations.

You saying it lacks ambient occlusion?

Lumen is a completely interactive solution of global illumination that automatically responds to changes in scene and light. The machine allows diffuse interreflection with unlimited reflections and indirect ambient occlusion reflections in large, complex settings, at kilometer-to-millimeter scales.

2021 Unreal Engine 5 and Epic Games on PlayStation 5 | Spywox

A Real-time demo running on Sony's PlayStation 5, the company offered a glimpse at 2021 Unreal Engine 5 today, and the footage looks positively amazing.

spywox.com

They literally showcase the temporal lag while saying it updates instantly, They move the sun and then it takes seconds for the bounced lighting to finish updating.

It seemed to update noticeably faster than the minecraft rtx beta.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I feel like hugging someone. Let's bro-hug.

Errrr

 

[Lethal01]

You do know that outside of small shadows, there are some forms of ray tracing implemented, and similar approximations.

You saying it lacks ambient occlusion?
It seemed to update noticeably faster than the minecraft rtx beta.

Sure, Minecraft is a very extreme case. I didn't say it was as bad as Minecraft but you said it doesn't happen at all, point is it's very noticeable especially when you aren't watching through youtube compression.

Yes, obviously they are using approximations, that's the whole point. It's faster, but it's less accurate and fails more often. I didn't say it lacks shadows or AO, I said it's clearly a step back from raytraced AO and shadows.

Just to be clear I'm beyond excited for both these technologies, and It's what we will have to use since consoles definitely aren't gonna be raytracing everything, But people are acting like this is on par with it when it's nowhere close.

 

[Mod of War: Remastered]

Ad hominem from the little low IQ fanboy...do you know what ad hominem means ?

Whats it like being stupid ?

How big is a last gen game ? Available RAM is 5 GB.

Should load in under a second....

Show me an example we are waiting (or attack me if you cant, either way its funny)

Hmm..I can kind of see what you mean. Still think the "wow" effect would be lessened, even moreso since it's Lockhart (so we know for a fact the demo wouldn't look as good).

But if it could do the texture streaming very well, comparable what we saw on PS5 but just at lower resolution (obviously), that would at least shut up some folks stuck on the narrative MS's SSD I/O is somehow "anemic" and will be some massive bottleneck (which would not benefit PS5 multiplatform development either).




Yep, you're worthless. Guess you can join that ignore list with the other idiots; I come here to talk positively about next-gen platforms and do so fairly, not be insulted by a tri-hard with an edgelord complex and minuscule brain power and a fetish so strong for a piece of plastic he'd probably hump it in heat if he could.

You want to be toxic? Well there's a taste of it for you. Now I can talk with respectable members and not bother with your trash any longer.

Both of you settle down and relax. I know I say this many, many, many many many times. But, your points can be made without getting so invested in that emotion. I can understand the emotion, but let's do keep it civil.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Both of you settle down and relax. I know I say this many, many, many many many times. But, your points can be made without getting so invested in that emotion. I can understand the emotion, but let's do keep it civil.

You're right, there's no reason for that kind of bickering. I'll let bygones be bygones if geordiemp does. We both got a little out of line earlier.

 

[HeresJohnny]

Wow, that's insane. Hype levels rising.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yes, obviously they are using approximations, that's the whole point. It's faster, but it's less accurate and fails more often. I didn't say it lacks shadows or AO, I said it's clearly a step back from raytraced AO and shadows.

I would have to look the vxgi cornell box demo essentially looks the same as ray tracing only blurrier. This is probably more advanced than vxgi, so the results should be substantially closer to ray tracing.

Sometimes approximations such as dlss2.0 almost never fail and manage to look as good as the real thing.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Errrr

Let love in, bro. Life rips.

Wow, that's insane. Hype levels rising.

Indeed, as a first window into next-gen, what we see looks promising IMO

 

[Tell_men]

A new Unreal Tournament with this engine would be the tits.

 

[dottme]

NVMe is just the software.
A protocol of communication like TCP/IP but for SSD communication.

Both the I/O controller (that can be on motherboard or on CPU die) and the SSD internal controller needs to know how to communicate via NVMe.

It is an alternative to SCSI and ATA.

NVMe isn’t just the software. It involved a lot of hardware. The interface itself is different as NVMe SSD connect to a PCIe bus instead of a SATA or SCSI bus.

 

[D.Final]

Errrr

Yeah

 

[Rickyiez]

DLSS will be the key for 4k Ray tracing . It's very much doable

 

[sinnergy]

EPIC seemed to have had PS5 longer , if the 2019 rumors are true, so it was natural that version was the one to show, it was farther along and you want to market your engine product.
Seems MS played Series X close to the chest.

and seeing this is a software renderer (like days past) it seems a big part will rely heavily on CPU and GPU grunt , just saying .

 

[geordiemp]

Both of you settle down and relax. I know I say this many, many, many many many times. But, your points can be made without getting so invested in that emotion. I can understand the emotion, but let's do keep it civil.

You're right, there's no reason for that kind of bickering. I'll let bygones be bygones if geordiemp does. We both got a little out of line earlier.

I apologise, I started debating with myself afterwards in later posts (below) as it has been an uneven flow around here lately, as even the demo is not all it says it is and used scenes which favour the technology. Think everyone on GAF is caught in the demo hype without too much analysis which hopefully will come.

Playing devils advocate

What is interesting is the UE5 demo was it was so strong on static assests, but moving assests had to use standard techniques (lara girl), so clearly a hybrid solution would be most useful, especially a landscape of moving grass and trees in wind where that technique might struggle ? I am sure its been worked on, but thats the questions I had with the demo..

Maybe we will get windles games next gen lol

 

[jackets with pockets]

 

[ZywyPL]

So that's how games will look like in 15-20 years, cool I guess.

So basically, the engine sort of works like RT except for rasterization, where instead of rays/pixel it renders polygons/pixel, sounds so logical and so obvious once someone finally sorted it out. Which still, 4K is around 8M pixels, so it should translate into 8M polygons, yet Epic mentioned there are about 20M polygons being rendered in each frame, that's a huge gap/difference, and on top of that the demo ran at 1440p, which is about 3.5M pixels, so the difference is even greater, the engine basically renders 5-6x more polygons than it can actually be displayed, it just shows how much room for improvement there is.

The temporal GI looks nice as well, if that can be rendered on CUs that means more RT power can be left for reflections, shadows etc., which combined could create outstanding results.

Other than that, what a boring demo, it looked exactly like many current-gen open-world walking sims except with better visuals, the animations systems while looking great makes everything even slower than it already is, and there were still forced slowdown sections... I just hope there will be more smaller scale/linear games in the upcoming generation like they were during PS360 times, instead of even bigger, even more boring open-world games.

But like I said, it's just a tech demo like many others before, so I don't expect the actual games to look nowhere near that good, probably next Gears will be the best utilization of the engine, while most 3rd party/indie titles will as always produce average visuals with average performance (30FPS). And by the time we'll get a hardware on which those visuals will be actually possible to pull out new technologies will show up that will take over. And the cycle continues.

 

[Lethal01]

I would have to look the vxgi cornell box demo essentially looks the same as ray tracing only blurrier. This is probably more advanced than vxgi, so the results should be substantially closer to ray tracing.

Sometimes approximations such as dlss2.0 almost never fail and manage to look as good as the real thing.

Cornell box is a basic demo and really not a stress test for cases where it might fail.
I do hope that this progresses a lot from here and that it becomes an approximation where you can't tell the difference, But right now the innacuracies were clear to me from the first viewing.

However that doesn't mean I didn't notice that it is a gigantic upgrade that i'm thankful for. baking is hell

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I do hope that this progresses a lot from here and that it becomes an approximation where you can't tell the difference, But right now the innacuracies were clear to me from the first viewing.

Well we don't have comparison photos with true path tracing. But when I look at the following images the environment looks straight out of a hollywood film. I simply cannot tell any obvious abnormalities in the lighting. In movement there are the minor screenspace artifacts, but that's about it.

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/Unreal+Engine%2Fblog%2Fa-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5%2FUnreal_Engine_5_Nanite-2491x1401-110edc43c67b7d81be869bf703cb40a72e557c96.jpg

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/Unreal+Engine%2Fblog%2Fa-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5%2FUnreal_Engine_5_Gallery_1_ALT-2160x1214-6599ca93295364b5d9cd0c34a203426baf38c4b8.jpg

https://gamespot1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/123/1239113/3670730-unreal_engine_5_07.jpg

 

[pawel86ck]

Guys, do we know why Epic is using their own upscaling method in this UE5 presentation instead of AI upscaling? PS5 doesnt support AI upscaling like XSX?

 

[pawel86ck]

Well we don't have comparison photos with true path tracing. But when I look at the following images the environment looks straight out of a hollywood film. I simply cannot tell any obvious abnormalities in the lighting. In movement there are the minor screenspace artifacts, but that's about it.

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/Unreal+Engine%2Fblog%2Fa-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5%2FUnreal_Engine_5_Nanite-2491x1401-110edc43c67b7d81be869bf703cb40a72e557c96.jpg

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/Unreal+Engine%2Fblog%2Fa-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5%2FUnreal_Engine_5_Gallery_1_ALT-2160x1214-6599ca93295364b5d9cd0c34a203426baf38c4b8.jpg

https://gamespot1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/123/1239113/3670730-unreal_engine_5_07.jpg

It looks like hollywood movie CGI to me, but of course Vfxveteran has said we are loooong way before we will be able to make such claims.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Guys, do we know why Epic is using their own upscaling method in this UE5 presentation instead of AI upscaling? PS5 doesnt support AI upscaling like XSX?

RDNA2 doesn't have tensor cores, it has compute shaders. H/W wise both xsx and ps5 have about the same ai upscaling capability. The software side might be different, perhaps microsoft will offer a general solution, or perhaps each developer will have to come up with their own solution.

Epic as developers of the unreal engine, might be using their own custom ai upscaling that they'll distribute to third parties or some non ai upscaling.