Lethal01
Member
Got a source on that?
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Unreal Engine 5 revealed! Real-Time Prototype Gameplay Demo Running On PS5
- Thread starter JareBear: Remastered
- Start date
Got a source on that?
Andodalf
Banned
I think he's impying it going above 30 fps doesn't mean it preformed better than the PS5. Perhaps PS5's dynamic res was capped at 1440p, and combined with the fps cap there was overhead, compared to this demo going full bore
Idk if id expect to to bear near 50fps, seeing has how they talk about dynamic scaling coming into play even with the 30 fps cap, but peaking in the 50s might not be out of the question at all, or even running really well in the first areas, maybe even 60, but going with the 30 fps cap due to the big room and outdoor areas not locking to 60 in them. Theres really a ton of ways it could go.
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Ascend
Member
Yeah the 50+ fps, I just threw it out there. He is implying it is performing better than 40fps on the laptop though, so I based it on that, and on the fact that they are still targeting to reach 60fps with the same quality.
Self_Destructive
Member
I think it's quite obvious which sections of the demo are going to run more performant than others.. so saying that it's rendering over 30 isn't really saying much. The more important thing is that there's areas where the resolution actually has to drop to maintain 30fps. Again, we could probably guess which areas of the demo those are.
That said... they're pushing very excessive parameters to prove a point. With more optimization at the engine level, as well as the demo code, they will very likely hit their target of 1440p60. It's very early days yet.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Oh shit, BioShock uses the Unreal Engine.
BioShock 4 is going to be stunning.
BioShock 4 is going to be stunning.
Audiophile
Member
This Demo is doing the rounds, even Joe Rogan was just talking about it.
Tweets from Epic team. Geometry images was the first approach but it was abandoned.
Lethal01
Member
Who specifically? I need to find the actual tweet
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
It seems they've said even sata isn't sufficient. And it appears to get it to run on their nvmes they even had to optimize data layout on the ssd for the flight section(or else why would they optimize data layout?). Optimizing data layout is only possible when the path is known and fixed, an open world game with free travel will not be possible to optimize data layout.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
The thing is there's different levels of SATA. SATA I, SATA II, SATA III, and smaller steppings within those that upgrade various specifications. There's also SATA Express, an evolution of sorts from SATA III. If SATA wasn't sufficient, they should maybe specify up to what point. SATA I, for example, I'd figure is obviously not sufficient, but SATA III might be. See?
As for the other things, yes I'd agree that it's much easier to sort out the data layout more easily in a linear-based game since the paths are generally fixed (as they certainly were in the demo; we saw zero double-backing along the path or branching points, it was heavily scripted), but for this specific type of demo, that's why I said the PS5's SSD was probably not being stressed too much (and why the demo, including the flying sequence, could be easily done with drives much lower than PS5's spec).
Sounds like Tim being Tim xD. Jokes aside, I think he's just trying to wave off any insinuation that because the demo appeared to run better on the laptop (since it was hitting 40 FPS), that doesn't mean the PS5 is "weaker" than the laptop's specs. The framerate was uncapped on the laptop demo run for example, whereas for the PS5 demo they decided to lock the framerate to 30.
Some people would probably try using the higher FPS performance of the laptop demo as a means of drudging back up stuff like "9.2 TF confirmed" or whanot; while I don't think the game was stressing the GPU to its peak performance levels (let alone not being fully optimized), and it was using a profile since it's on a devkit, that shouldn't in any way be grounds for people to try spinning it into claiming PS5 is a weak console, or trying to open back up the dumb arguments like it's RDNA1, etc. etc.
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Shmunter
Member
Personally I think you could stress the PS5 drive even in a single room scenario just from basic 360 rotation if you wanted to.
FranXico
Member
The alternative would be tearing frames all over the place. They're still working on improving performance on consoles.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
What we know is that even running off of nvmes it seems like optimized data layout was required for some section. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do such layout optimization for nvmes. This suggests it would stress or exceed the capacity even of nvme drives otherwise.
Maybe direct storage solves this issue, we just don't know. As is the laptop does not seem like it would fare well with fast travel in open worlds which would lack optimized data layout.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Eh, it really depends on how it's being rendered through the engine, what software algorithms and scripts are in use, and tons of other complicated stuff. I do think rapid 360-degree spins would be a bit more of a "strain" on the SSD tho (don't like using that term, makes it sound like it's struggling but if it were that'd only be due to lack of optimization, this early on).
Yeah, it would definitely suggest that on PC side there is likely a file I/O, API and maybe driver limitations at play, plus any possible given overhead, some of which could just even be due to other system processes of other applications/services running.
Hopefully DirectStorage on PC changes a lot (if not all) of that for the better; IIRC it's being designed with XSX in mind first and then transitioning over to PC, not the other way around. So that should help with setting up a standardization of a baseline and variations on how some aspects of it work on PC can be done to accommodate some different hardware configurations.
The neat thing there is that, since it's a software-targeting solution, it can be relatively easy to update and improve as time goes on. And I would expect the XSX has enough hardware headroom to accommodate many of those updates. All the same, Sony aught to be able to do updates for firmware code to their SSD I/O, though it'll only be on their platform and compatible with approved 3rd-party drives.
Which is a part I'm still very curious about them actually getting done right; they can't really control how 3rd-parties build their drives, and I doubt many will make PS5-specific SSDs. We'll see how that shakes out.
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jackets with pockets
Banned
Experts Worry Unreal Engine 5 Will Deplete the World's Supply of Triangles
CARY, N.C. — Epic Games revealed their upcoming Unreal Engine 5 today, a program with such staggering capability that experts are worried it will deplete…
thehardtimes.net
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Experts Worry Unreal Engine 5 Will Deplete the World's Supply of Triangles
CARY, N.C. — Epic Games revealed their upcoming Unreal Engine 5 today, a program with such staggering capability that experts are worried it will deplete…thehardtimes.net
#SaveTheTriangles
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
2:55 and on
Basically says that he thinks SSDs need to start becoming standard/common on PCs or PCs will need to start having more RAM to compensate. At least that is how I understood it
Talks about the chinese dev laptop situation
9:24
speculates that theoretically Lumen would run better on XsX due to GPU
9:50
says Nanite will probably work better on PS5 due to SSD
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ZywyPL
Banned
PC inside PC? PCception! ;P The thing is, gaming PCs already have twice as much memory as next-gen consoles (24-27GB), and with upcoming AMD and NV GPUs and DDR5 next year the total amount of memory in PCs will triple-quadruple, so they won't need to rely so heavily on streaming, if at all. Lets say we have 40GB worth of assets, and only 13GB to store them vs 24 vs 32 vs 48, and so on.
I think the consoles will, as always, use a mix of medium-high settings, let's say 3-4 polygons/pixel, while 5-6 polys will be left as very high-ultra for PCs, and of course 1-2 being lowes-low, for potatoe PCs, smartphones and tablets. And with lower geometry complexity Lumen will be as well lighter to calculate. So all in all, the end results should be VERY similar in multiplatform titles.
Elog
Member
While I lack the exact numbers it is reasonable to assume that the amount of memory required to store sufficient amount of high quality assets is higher than that. If your assumption would be correct, why did Sony not just up the RAM of the console instead of implementing a very expensive and advanced SSD plus I/O architecture? The only logical conclusion from that is that it was more cost efficient to implement the SSD plus I/O architecture and hence that the RAM number is much higher than the one you assume.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
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oldergamer
Member
I wish Epic would just release the memory usage specs so everyone gets a better idea of how much bandwidth it used, how many unique meshes, the size of meshes, how many unique textures, etc. This would go very far to clearing up a lot of assumptions people are making.
martino
Member
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pawel86ck
Banned
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Ascend
Member
So that means the compressed 4.8 GB/s of the XSX would be enough to do the same thing, especially if combined with SFS.
Elog
Member
Some of you are still operating as if the peak speed of the SSD is the key driver. It is the latency that is key. The SSD just needs to have a sufficiently high peak speed number - my assumption would be that most high-end SSDs fulfil that specification already today. Latency however? PCs are left in the dustbin with the current PC architecture. My belief is that XSX will struggle compared to the PS5 as well based on what has been communicated.
How many of you have ever asked yourself why there is RAM on a graphics card when you have RAM on the MB? Why you have cache memory on your CPU die when you have RAM on your MB? Latency, latency and latency. That is why Cerny spent such a long time on this in his tech speech - that is the secret sauce - the latency for a single call of a file from the SSD and the amount of calls that can be made in parallel.
I am so looking forward to look at titles that take advantage of this.
How many of you have ever asked yourself why there is RAM on a graphics card when you have RAM on the MB? Why you have cache memory on your CPU die when you have RAM on your MB? Latency, latency and latency. That is why Cerny spent such a long time on this in his tech speech - that is the secret sauce - the latency for a single call of a file from the SSD and the amount of calls that can be made in parallel.
I am so looking forward to look at titles that take advantage of this.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
What is XsX also has made a marked improvement over gaming PCs in the latency department? Maybe not at PS5’s level, but still significant?
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Elog
Member
I assume they have - but so far there is nothing that indicates that MS hves pushed their system to a point where the SSD can be used as a streaming device for assets that are utilised on screen in the same way as the PS5. You are right though that the absence of such information does not been it is not there. However, so far most things line up for the PS5 here (Cerny's speech, TS comments regarding the Unreal 5 demo etc). We will of course know within the next few months but I think it is far fetched right now to assume that the XSX has the latency required to use the SSD in the same way even though it is a good and solid SSD that will reduce load times a lot.
martino
Member
no because it's half a second
you should read 8gb/s or 4gb/0.5s it was portly worded
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Ascend
Member
Ah. I get it. He's using the compressed 8GB/s metric and saying that turning takes about half a second, and that in that time timespan you can load 4GB of data.
oldergamer
Member
Wait, of course the SSD can be used as a streaming device. Any hard drive can be with a lower iO/O bandwidth threshold. Streaming isn't new, but having a lot of i/o bandwidth on consoles is something new.
I would be very surprised if MS didn't take latency into account when developing their velocity tech. It almost wouldn't make any sense if they ignored it. They still haven't given the full picture on what it can do and are holding somethings back for later. They introduces a lot of changes to alleviate bottlenecks and I'm sure this must be factored in.
Here's a question, have we seen ANY NVME device deliver its peak performance consistently? I have one of the samsung EVO drives and it certainly has its moments when a read is extremely fast. However it rarely lives up to its specs of:
- read/write speeds of 3,500/2,500 MB/s
I still think people are freaking out over a on paper speed difference that will end up being a lower bandwidth in real-world usage. There's two things we don't know.
1. How much i/O bandwidth was Unreal 5 using on PS5 ( what was the load per frame?)
2. The number of textures, meshes, sizes and size of of all the assets
3. Were they using any compression at all
Latency is one of the things MS is pushing this next gen
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
I think you’re referring to the DLI (Input latency) for controller responsiveness. I’m not sure I have heard MS directly address I/O latency yet
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I can't recall exctly but I think they mentioned something about velocity not having bottlenecks and low latency, I'm trying to find that, but maybe you are right, just about the controller
oldergamer
Member
just seeing some of the reviews of NVME drives
consoles have custom hardware which might allow them to reach near max read and write speeds we dont know, don't gather your conclusions only based on PC hardware
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Silver Wattle
Gold Member
This only applies to PC's, software needs to be written from the ground up for super fast SSD's to make the most use of them.
Elog
Member
You are exactly describing the latency problem. The only time you will get close to the theoretical peak bandwidth on a PC is when you read one huge piece of code. If you read 1000's of files the latency becomes dominant. This is precisely Cerny's point and what he tried to address in the I/O design of the PS5.
You are of course right that MS might have something similar but so far every piece of information we see indicates the opposite (please note that this does not mean the XSX does not have a very competent SSD - it would only mean that it does not reach the ridiculously low latency numbers required to pull off what the PS5 seemingly did during the Unreal 5 demo).
oldergamer
Member
Which information indicates the opposite?
Elog
Member
1) Focus in marketing and technology discussions from MS - latency is not pushed at all
2) Loading time demo by MS on the XsX - that demo almost seals that XSX has 'normal' latency values
3) EPIC commentary around the Unreal 5 demo which fairly clearly implies that what was shown was only possible on a PS5 right now
As I wrote - this indicates that MS does not have the same low latency as the PS5. We'll see what the reality is in the end.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Given the amount of HW they have thrown at the problem on the SoC directly completely for I/O purposes I would strongly hope they have a nice latency advantage else they lost a lot of performance improvements on the CPU and GPU and handicapped the large investment in the custom flash solution.
SquireDalbridge
Neo Member
Boy OOOH Boy every one is talking Nonsense on this Forum nowadays Its always Unreal Engine 5 this or That.
Epic surely pimped a Demo to all you Non Beleievers and made you instead of Believers Heritics.
Let me give you some clear and Factual info First this Demo does not represent what ps5 can do.
Remember Lair trailer ps3 remeber Deep Down trailer Ingame engine Demo Developing kit they called. This time Epic is pimping the same Sh@t.Sure the ps5 has so called a faster SSD to stram the Nanites but this ingame Engine quality will not be achieved first of all the PS5 GPU will not handle it. I am not talking about a so called Developing Kit demo Epic showed.These Nanintes can only be Used on Static Worlds so No Vegatative
green Worlds if so they will be rendered apartly.So will the Nanites and Lumen be used,Yes only on pure Static worlds with no animation on them.In the whole demo you see some little particle effects which even look
strange in the demo which look like Polygon basic compared to Nanites. So stop this TV evangelism because PS5 will have more ingame Engine demo's from a Developing kit. Which will be Fake. And take this UE5 demo as something the PS5 can do with less triangles and lower resolution but the world will be static and the dynamic will be rendered not in Nanites.
Epic surely pimped a Demo to all you Non Beleievers and made you instead of Believers Heritics.
Let me give you some clear and Factual info First this Demo does not represent what ps5 can do.
Remember Lair trailer ps3 remeber Deep Down trailer Ingame engine Demo Developing kit they called. This time Epic is pimping the same Sh@t.Sure the ps5 has so called a faster SSD to stram the Nanites but this ingame Engine quality will not be achieved first of all the PS5 GPU will not handle it. I am not talking about a so called Developing Kit demo Epic showed.These Nanintes can only be Used on Static Worlds so No Vegatative
green Worlds if so they will be rendered apartly.So will the Nanites and Lumen be used,Yes only on pure Static worlds with no animation on them.In the whole demo you see some little particle effects which even look
strange in the demo which look like Polygon basic compared to Nanites. So stop this TV evangelism because PS5 will have more ingame Engine demo's from a Developing kit. Which will be Fake. And take this UE5 demo as something the PS5 can do with less triangles and lower resolution but the world will be static and the dynamic will be rendered not in Nanites.
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Honey Bunny
Member
Thank you brother. Finally, someone talking some sense.
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jackets with pockets
Banned
What are you referring to with that post?
Makes ya think doesn't it?
Self_Destructive
Member
Exactly. On PC devs could store enough into RAM initially to contain the next 2-3 seconds of gameplay..instead of the 1 second on PS5, meaning the SSD would have more time to continually stream new data into RAM and VRAM.
And that's besides the fact that games will be designed much smarter and be far more optimized than what this demo is. You're not going to have 400GB games with ridiculous 8K textures for everything and billions of unique poly models everywhere. Not to mention that there's limits to what Nanite can do currently...
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FranXico
Member
No. The rest, yes.