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Up: 94 year old former SS-Guard convicted for Auschwitz

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Chariot

Member
For the new page:

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Oskar Grönig was found guilty for accessory to 300,000 murders and got four years of jail time. They still check if he actually has to go there though, since his health isn't the best anymore.


Okay, so what should he have done do you think? Did he personally request to work there? No you say? What? He even requested transfer away from that horrible place...huh, that's odd.

But fuck him anyway, or something, i dunno?
It's a difficult thing of course, but we should admit mistakes even if said mistake is staying passive. Just imagine learning that your place of work is part of a death machine that grinds people into dust. Would you be content with just ask for a transfer and when denied just continue your work?

is that really how you want legal justice to work?
when we think someone is guilty he should be convicted?
shouln't we try to find evidence that he actually commited crimes?

I don't know the spezifics why he was convicted now, but I doubt they found said evidence, since they tried to do that and dropped the charges against hin the 80s. so my guess is they pulled another Demjanjuk and ruled that if he worked in auschwitz he is automatically guilty, without actual evidence that he commited any crimes.

now I think it's a highly interesting case, and I am not saying this is wrong. we are talking about SS officers after all. but personally, I just don't believe legal justice should work that way. people should not be convicted because of hearsay or because of what we think likely happened. we should be better than this, we should need proof. people should be innocent until proven guilty, and if we don't this even for the worst of them it really has no worth at all. that's my opinion.
From what I gathered from a german news site, it was partly because he admitted his personal guilt. The thing is, that he himself admitted that he did wrong. Which should normally lead to lowering the punishment, but well, the victims lawyer pushed for more than three years and I guess it's difficult to say no to over 70 victims of the greatest german atrocity.

To me and apparently the victims the location is very important. Auschwitz is no joke.
 
He checked luggage, that was what he did. But hey, he was a nazi right? So it's okay to sentence him for the murders of 300 thousand people, because all the nazi's were genocidal maniacs, right?

Yeah I don't know though
he confessed before that he was morally guilty and that he was an accomplice of the holocaust and there is no denial
 

legend166

Member
The "he was just a bag checker" line is so weird. He wasn't some security guard at a store making sure people weren't stealing stuff as they left the store.

A better equivalent was that he joined a roaming gang who went around killing people, and his job was to rob the bodies afterwards (or maybe when they had dragged the person into an alley but before they killed them).

The theft of property from the Jewish people was a particularly sick aspect of the Holocaust that ensured the survivors would live in poverty afterwards (especially when they got home to realise their homes had also been taken with no way to reclaim them).

The fact that there were people like him doing mundane tasks in the Holocaust machine is what made it so unique in human history. Genocides and mass murder obviously aren't unique in human history. Genocide as bureaucracy certainly is, and that's what the Holocaust was. The fact that there were people like him employed in the process makes the whole thing worse, and shouldn't absolve him of culpability.

What's weird is the man seems to actually have no problem admitting as such and yet people are still defending him.
 

daninthemix

Member
I watched that Auschwitz documentary (in fact I think I have it on DVD) and remember this guy. He was unrepentant about his role, but you have to give him a little credit that he chose to speak up in order to rebut holocaust deniers. That's got to be worth something.
 

Oersted

Member
Which is why he's being tried for accessory to murder.


People in here asking why he wasn't tried earlier.. was he in hiding?

Couple of reasons. Persecuting people for some of the biggest crimes in history with a normal legal system doesn't really work. Facing the past was never a popular thing in Germany. The law system after World War II was filled with Nazis, friends of Nazis etc. No real interest to persecute there.
 

Crema

Member
I have no problem with it if we also plan to convict every Allied soldier involved in the various massacres of World War II.
 

Chariot

Member
Couple of reasons. Persecuting people for some of the biggest crimes in history with a normal legal system doesn't really work. Facing the past was never a popular thing in Germany. The law system after World War II was filled with Nazis, friends of Nazis etc. No real interest to persecute there.
Au contraire. That is what happened after WWI and the americans learned from that. They threw most of the old lower officials out, something that didn't happen after WWI and instead of punishing the germans, went to educate them. Brought them to the KZs and showed everyone what they have done. Since I got history in school I had not a single year where we didn't had a nazi topic for a few weeks.
 

Skele7on

Banned
in some weird twisted way I feel for the guy,
in world war two a lot of young men were taken from their homes and forced to fight,
yes what the Nazi movement did was truly despicable but at the same time a lot of these guys were young and forced into their positions.

So if this guy was a young guy that was forced into checking these bags
I feel a bit sorry for him, before you go "He should have killed himself"
people when it comes down to it will fight and do anything to try and save their own lives, that is hard coded into all of us.

I just wish people would look at the bigger picture before just going "
Oh Nazi YOU MUST DIE" as this statement is actually pretty immature.
Anyone who was of a much higher position who chose to do the things they did fine.
But if he's 94 now, he'd have been VERY young.
I would also bet he was one of the many SS children who were brain washed and forced into fighting.
 

Trickster

Member
He was in Auschwitz. He made it possible. He wasn't just a random guy running on the streets.

He requested to get away from that hell hole, what more should he have done? Commited treason and get executed for it?

It's a difficult thing of course, but we should admit mistakes even if said mistake is staying passive. Just imagine learning that your place of work is part of a death machine that grinds people into dust. Would you be content with just ask for a transfer and when denied just continue your work?

Again, what should he have done? Had he done anything beyond that, he would have most likely been executed or some other nightmarish outcome would have happened to him

Yeah I don't know though

Every single nazi soldier or official are/were as guilty as he is. They are all accomplises on some level. But I find it disgusting that a modern society would be so short minded and unable to understand context, that we would judge this man an accomplice to some 300 thousand murders. This is a man who was a soldier under the fucking hitler rule, and had practically no choice to do what he was told or fucking be executed for treason. And yet we fucking dare judge this man, 70 years after it took place? Give me a fucking break. This guy wasn't Mengele or some other sadistic fuck in the nazi ranks.
 
I'm really confused by the "but he was a nazi!" logic some display that regardless of if he killed or did anything other than be a glorified booker keeper/admin assistant, the simple fact he was a Nazi he is by association a murderer and deserves everything coming to him and more because his victims didn't get 94 years;

The German people as a whole weer slowly manipulated over decades into the belief that non Arians were sub humans and that jews were the lowest of all - en mass they were indoctrinated into a belief system - they all truely believed they were right and just

the old adage of the victors write history applies here, we won so we are indoctrinated to believe that all Nazi's are evil of the highest order - Imagine that America lost the Vietnam war, and right now we were all Vietnamese, all the people that believe that being a nazi alone was a crime, would be the same be claiming the American soldiers should all be put to the sword, regardless of role, regardless of orders and regardless of obvious personal feelings.
As a different example should everyone who works at Guantanmo Bay be charge with war crimes? accomplices to murder and torture? even those in admin roles away from prisoners? I suspect a lot of people who think a nazi in the same role should, wouldn't agree to that

As victors of a war its very difficult to judge the enemy troops solely on your beliefs, they may have joined their national army, but orders and national policy are not something they are individually responsible for, you can only judge them on their individual actions, so;

this man was at Auschwitz from October 1944 to June 1945, around 9 months, in that time he despite his indoctrination he learned the horrors of Auschwitz and realised what was going on there was barbaric and requested to leave on numerous occasions, to go to the front and fight and potentially die over have to witness the horrors and internally question that indoctrination that jews should die vs his obvious humanity that made him feel that it wasn't right, and that IF they should die, it should not be like that.
So during the time he worked there he sat at a desk and catalogued possessions taken from captives and filled paper work, and requested to leave.
After the war that internal fight over morality changed his 20 something years of indoctrination and he realised everything he knew was wrong, and despite his shame came out to fight holocaust deniers, helped investigations both as part of documentaries and trials, and until the case in 2011 nobody wanted to or legally could try him in a court of law in the absence of evidence of him actually committing or aiding in the murders - now we know otherwise, people consider merely being there and/or being a member of the Nazi party is enough to be held an accomplice now
The trial was a sham as is the sentence, which is effectively a death sentence for this man

My only question now is where will the vengence stop, if association needs no evidence now and simply being an SS/Nazi party member is all that requires conviction, where will it end? will they target civilian nazi members? every single SS member regardless of post? it seems some people in here think that acceptable - i just hope their nation doesn't loose a war and receive the same courtesy
 

Oersted

Member
Au contraire. That is what happened after WWI and the americans learned from that. They threw most of the old lower officials out, something that didn't happen after WWI and instead of punishing the germans, went to educate them. Brought them to the KZs and showed everyone what they have done. Since I got history in school I had not a single year where we didn't had a nazi topic for a few weeks.

You had some bad history lessons. As a start, look up the history of Fritz Bauer.

He requested to get away from that hell hole, what more should he have done? Commited treason and get executed for it?



Again, what should he have done? Had he done anything beyond that, he would have most likely been executed or some other nightmarish outcome would have happened to him



Every single nazi soldier or official are/were as guilty as he is. They are all accomplises on some level. But I find it disgusting that a modern society would be so short minded and unable to understand context, that we would judge this man an accomplice to some 300 thousand murders. This is a man who was a soldier under the fucking hitler rule, and had practically no choice to do what he was told or fucking be executed for treason. And yet we fucking dare judge this man, 70 years after it took place? Give me a fucking break. This guy wasn't Mengele or some other sadistic fuck in the nazi ranks.

We dare to judge him? What is wrong with you?
 

Pezking

Member
The German people as a whole weer slowly manipulated over decades into the belief that non Arians were sub humans and that jews were the lowest of all - en mass they were indoctrinated into a belief system - they all truely believed they were right and just

Yes, but that didn't happen slowly.

Hitler started WW2 just six years after his rise to power.

It's truly shocking how the Nazis were able to effectively seduce and indoctrinate millions of people in such a short time.
 

Chariot

Member
Again, what should he have done? Had he done anything beyond that, he would have most likely been executed or some other nightmarish outcome would have happened to him
He could've break his leg or leave the job and join the regular army or some factory job. But I do agree that it's not a simple thing and hindsight is king of course. I don't know what I would've done.

- Imagine that America lost the Vietnam war,
I am sorry, what? Does the USA believe it WON the Vietnam War?
 

Novocaine

Member
It's a difficult thing of course, but we should admit mistakes even if said mistake is staying passive. Just imagine learning that your place of work is part of a death machine that grinds people into dust. Would you be content with just ask for a transfer and when denied just continue your work?

From what I gathered from a german news site, it was partly because he admitted his personal guilt. The thing is, that he himself admitted that he did wrong. Which should normally lead to lowering the punishment, but well, the victims lawyer pushed for more than three years and I guess it's difficult to say no to over 70 victims of the greatest german atrocity.

To me and apparently the victims the location is very important. Auschwitz is no joke.

This isn't 2015 western society, it's 1940's Germany. He would have been lucky if he was shot in the head for showing any kind of discontent.
 

DarkFlow

Banned
He could've break his leg or leave the job and join the regular army or some factory job. But I do agree that it's not a simple thing and hindsight is king of course. I don't know what I would've done.

I am sorry, what? Does the USA believe it WON the Vietnam War?

We like to call it a Draw.
 
Did you bother to read at all why he was convicted? Or what even he himself said?

Yes i did, he feels personally responsible that he could have done something in heinsight, thats called guilt. I've followed this trial for quite some time and its very evident its a barrel scrapping for convictions based on that 2011 ruling, they tired to charg him in the 80's and found not enough evidence for conviction, nothing has changed between now and then other than that 2011 ruling

I am sorry, what? Does the USA believe it WON the Vietnam War?

I'm not American so i can't really comment, but from all i've seen of it and how its portrayed in the media, i'd say its not exactly considered a defeat, closer to a 'win'
 

Chariot

Member
This isn't 2015 western society, it's 1940's Germany. He would have been lucky if he was shot in the head for showing any kind of discontent.
True, true.

you get 7 years for stealing bread in germany?
Depends on how much bread you are stealing and with what methods. I imaging robbing a bakery for bread while shooting in the air with an Ak47 would get you 7 years.

We like to call it a Draw.
I'm not American so i can't really comment, but from all i've seen of it and how its portrayed in the media, i'd say its not exactly considered a defeat, closer to a 'win'
This is off-topic, but I can't just let that go. The North Vietnamese achieved their war goals while the americans didn't and left with the tail between their legs and didn't achieve any war goal and watched as their ally was torn apart without their support.
 

Oersted

Member
I agree with Trickster. If the choice is between being complicit and being executed, who among us would truly choose the latter?

This pathetic attempt of an excuse, which Nazis succcesfully used for centuries to never face trial, doesn't fly since the Frankfurt trials anymore.

Yes i did, he feels personally responsible that he could have done something in heinsight, thats called guilt. I've followed this trial for quite some time and its very evident its a barrel scrapping for convictions based on that 2011 ruling, they tired to charg him in the 80's and found not enough evidence for conviction, nothing has changed between now and then other than that 2011 ruling

Yes, german law system needed a long time.
 
you get 7 years for stealing bread in germany?

There were cases in my country (Romania) when a 82 year old woman got 7 years for stealing a bread and a chicken. She was later cleared of charges with a presidential note, but still you get the idea. Justice is so...just!
 

DarkFlow

Banned
True, true.

Depends on how much bread you are stealing and with what methods. I imaging robbing a bakery for bread while shooting in the air with an Ak47 would get you 7 years.



This is off-topic, but I can't just let that go. The North Vietnamese achieved their war goals while the americans didn't and left with the tail between their legs and didn't achieve any war goal and watched as their ally was torn apart without their support.

Vietnam was a odd war, because really the US didn't have any goals other than "rack up body count". Taking land was not a goal, advancing across Vietnam was also not a goal. They literally thought they could win if they just killed a bunch of people.

Good that he was convicted. Hopefully the bastard dies in prison.
How nice of you.

This pathetic attempt of an excuse, which Nazis succcesfully used for centuries to never face trial, doesn't fly since the Frankfurt trials anymore.



Yes, german law system needed a long time.
Centuries you say?
 

Moff

Member
There were cases in my country (Romania) when a 82 year old woman got 7 years for stealing a bread and a chicken. She was later cleared of charges with a presidential note, but still you get the idea. Justice is so...just!

he stood trial in germany so if you want to complain about his punishment you should compare it to the legal system in this country. if stealing food can get you 7 years in romania, that is romanias problem.
 
True, true.

Depends on how much bread you are stealing and with what methods. I imaging robbing a bakery for bread while shooting in the air with an Ak47 would get you 7 years.



This is off-topic, but I can't just let that go. The North Vietnamese achieved their war goals while the americans didn't and left with the tail between their legs and didn't achieve any war goal and watched as their ally was torn apart without their support.

You don't need to convince me, i see it as a spectacular failure, as was the gulf, Afghanistan, iraq and potentially Syrian wars - i hold the controversial view the American military hasn't won a war since WWII and arguably that was a joint effort they joined near the end, so you could argue further back.
I tried to provide an example that American's (as this site mainly is) might relate to and one where i know they committed very questionable actions (as equally did the Vietcong)
Perhaps i should go back and change the example to the War in the Pacific?

Imagine the Jap's won and charged any American soldiers with war crimes etc etc (supplementing that war for my previous example)
 

Chariot

Member
Vietnam was a odd war, because really the US didn't have any goals other than "rack up body count". Taking land was not a goal, advancing across Vietnam was also not a goal. They literally thought they could win if they just killed a bunch of people.
The goal was for South-Vietnam to obtain dominance and rule the land and to crush the Vietcong resistance. Both didn't work out at all for the US.

Imagine the Jap's won and charged any American soldiers with war crimes etc etc (supplementing that war for my previous example)
I don't think that would work out good either. Look what they did to the chinese in WW2. The japanese people in charge were xenophob dickholes and their actions if they won would've been a lot worse than the USA's who learned from their mistakes after WW1 and tried to not to be a dick to the losers of the war.
 
he stood trial in germany so if you want to complain about his punishment you should compare it to the legal system in this country. if stealing food can get you 7 years in romania, that is romanias problem.

doesn't humanity have identical moral values? I was speaking about the JUSTICE system in general, at a global scale if you want.
 

Moff

Member
doesn't humanity have identical moral values? I was speaking about the JUSTICE system in general, at a global scale if you want.

well since you can get jailed or even killed in many countries for being a homosexual or not believing in god, no, humanity definitely does not have identical moral values.
 
The goal was for South-Vietnam to obtain dominance and rule the land and to crush the Vietcong resistance. Both didn't work out at all for the US.

I don't think that would work out good either. Look what they did to the chinese in WW2. The japanese people in charge were xenophob dickholes and their actions if they won would've been a lot worse than the USA's who learned from their mistakes after WW1 and tried to not to be a dick to the losers of the war.

I should have stuck away from American war's and stuck to British ones, at least i know all the genocides we've committed and gotten away with as we were the victors
 

ElFly

Member
Maybe the lesson here is, when you are accessory to genocide, asking for redeployment is not good enough.

Maybe the new moral standard is that in such a situation, you are obligated to do something. Sabotage. Helping people escape. Killing your superiors.

Anything.
 
This isn't 2015 western society, it's 1940's Germany. He would have been lucky if he was shot in the head for showing any kind of discontent.

False. What I have read has lead me to believe that if he refused to participate on moral grounds he would have been transferred. The Nazis were very concerned with the mental effects (how nice of them, right?) of their operations and took many steps to mitigate them. They believed that they were essentially sacrificing themselves for the future of the world and this belief became stronger as the war was being lost.
 

Darren870

Member
Maybe the lesson here is, when you are accessory to genocide, asking for redeployment is not good enough.

Maybe the new moral standard is that in such a situation, you are obligated to do something. Sabotage. Helping people escape. Killing your superiors.

Anything.

Accessory is a bit of a stretch, but lets say I agree with you. So he does any one of the things you mentioned and you know it will be punishable by death at the hands of his fellow "comrades". It is a lose...lose....

At least he spent parts of his life telling holocaust deniers to shove it. Least he tried to somehow make up for what he "did".

In the end he is guilty. I hardly see putting someone who was told to follow orders behind bars as justice at his age. But I don't know what justice really is for this particular crime.
 

Nivash

Member
False. What I have read has lead me to believe that if he refused to participate on moral grounds he would have been transferred. The Nazis were very concerned with the mental effects (how nice of them, right?) of their operations and took many steps to mitigate them. They believed that they were essentially sacrificing themselves for the future of the world and this belief became stronger as the war was being lost.

He himself appears to claim that he requested to be transferred but was denied. It's true that the SS did allow you to opt out of some assignments, such as the Einsatzgruppen or direct involvement in the killings. It's also true that these were exceptions and that the ordinary SS officer did not have that much of a say on where he would be posted. It's not exactly out of the realm of possibilities that he's telling the truth and that the SS didn't think accounting work at a concentration camp qualified you for the excemption.

As you say, the excemptions were in place due to morale and mental health considerations, not moral or ethical disagreements.
 

ElFly

Member
Accessory is a bit of a stretch, but lets say I agree with you. So he does any one of the things you mentioned and you know it will be punishable by death at the hands of his fellow "comrades". It is a lose...lose....

At least he spent parts of his life telling holocaust deniers to shove it. Least he tried to somehow make up for what he "did".

In the end he is guilty. I hardly see putting someone who was told to follow orders behind bars as justice at his age. But I don't know what justice really is for this particular crime.

I don't know if it is justice, but sometimes the punishment is supposed to be exemplary.

The problem is that the old excuse of "I was just following orders" has been shown to allow these kind of crimes over and over again. Maybe it is time to move the moral standards a little so these things stop happening. Even he would have been killed for opposing it, Well, society is jailing the guy now. Society would have preferred him dead back then.
 

Theonik

Member
In a war with compulsory conscription with treason punished by death and torture how do you not do wtf you are told?
He was SS. He enlisted to the Nazi cause. Maybe he hadn't realised they were mass exterminating jewish people but he still signed up to that cause which he didn't take an active part on and he claims to have regret afterwards at which point it was too late.

But that doesn't absolve him from that choice. If I were to criticise this decision here is that it's taken too long and there doesn't appear to be any real evidence to real crimes committed other than being in that camp.
 
In a war with compulsory conscription with treason punished by death and torture how do you not do wtf you are told?

Any decent human being would tell them to fuck themselves regardless of the consequences. Also, he enlisted. They didn't force him to do anything.
 
He himself appears to claim that he requested to be transferred but was denied. It's true that the SS did allow you to opt out of some assignments, such as the Einsatzgruppen or direct involvement in the killings. It's also true that these were exceptions and that the ordinary SS officer did not have that much of a say on where he would be posted. It's not exactly out of the realm of possibilities that he's telling the truth and that the SS didn't think accounting work at a concentration camp qualified you for the excemption.

As you say, the excemptions were in place due to morale and mental health considerations, not moral or ethical disagreements.

He might not of qualified in his case and we don't really know what happened. I'm just trying my best to dissuade people from the notion that many were forced on pain of death to do these things or that people were brainwashed. That's like my crusade right now haha. I think it's essential to the lessons of the Holocaust to know that many/most had a choice and that there were many psychological factors at play that make it applicable to the rest of humanity.
 
Any decent human being would tell them to fuck themselves regardless of the consequences. Also, he enlisted. They didn't force him to do anything.

It's easy to say in hindsight that a decent human being would've told them thanks but no thanks. The guy was in his 20s looking to be transferred out. Also many Germans fought for the Nazis because they had a sense of nationalism and fought for the country rather than what the politicians believed.

Not everyone could be Rommel and stand up to Hitler's orders (even he was assassinated).
 

Jarmel

Banned
Maybe the lesson here is, when you are accessory to genocide, asking for redeployment is not good enough.

Maybe the new moral standard is that in such a situation, you are obligated to do something. Sabotage. Helping people escape. Killing your superiors.

Anything.

A bar that almost everyone would fall short.
 
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