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[Corronchilejano]

What? Do you have a point?

Yes. It has been told before: This conviction serves no purpose to anyone, or anything.

Holocaust is one of the biggest crimes in human history. A working justice system should find those who are responsible for one of the biggest crimes in history, and let them face trial. To face the past, something Germany very much refused.

That should be the most basic thing in a legal system.

Legal systems have evolved. They're there to make a nation work. As such, the most socially advanced nations in the planet have noticed that after a while, the only thing the legal system must make sure of is to filter maladjusted individuals, correct them and avoid whatever conditions led them to disrupt society to go back into play.

As others have said before, I see no reason to do this to this man. The man that worked with the SS seventy years ago is long gone. Nothing of value can come out of jailing this man. It won't provide closure to those that haven't received it in half a century, it won't serve as an exemplary sentence for something that is still literally happening today (Israel anyone?) and... well, I just don't see how this works in any way for anyone.

As a matter of fact, that you even ask this question scares me.

You could tell me why this scares you. That would be helpful.

 

[cameron]

Commentary about the verdict from two survivors, Hedy Bohm and Max Eisen, who testified during the trial.

Two Toronto Holocaust survivors who testified at the war crimes trial of Oskar Groening say they feel that justice has been served after the man known as the "Accountant of Auschwitz" was convicted on Wednesday.

“He’s been found guilty, so for me, that is a tremendous achievement,” said Hedy Bohm, 87, who was a teenager when she was sent to the death camp with thousands of other Jews.

Max Eisen was 15 years old when he was sent to Auschwitz in 1944. His mother, sister, and two brothers were all killed in the gas chambers. Eisen doesn’t remember meeting the former guard, but knows he was there when Jews arrived at the death camp by train.

Groening’s role was to confiscate any valuable that could be put toward funding the Nazi war effort.

“He was in charge of all the loot they were going to gather,” Eisen said. “Every piece of bread had to be crumbled to piece to make sure that everything that was hidden was found. Tube of toothpaste slit open…currency was hidden in shoulder pads…and he was the one who collected all this.”

For Bohm, however, the verdict against Groening is more important than the length of the sentence.

“Justice has been served,” she said. “I have no wish for him to sit in jail. That should have come 50, 60, or 70 years ago.”

“He lived a good life with his family, his children, and his career…which was taken away from most of us.”

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-h...-to-accountant-of-auschwitz-verdict-1.2471393

 

[outunderthestars]

Should have been a year for every count. That said, I am happy to see some of justice finally being delivered.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Commentary about the verdict from two survivors, Hedy Bohm and Max Eisen, who testified during the trial.

Glad to see Ms. Bohm is being sensible here. Conviction is one thing. Jailing is another.

 

[Nephtis]

If I'm understanding this correctly, he has spent a good deal of his life condemning holocaust deniers and people who subscribe to the ideals he once subscribed to. If I'm understanding correctly, he has felt guilt over it, and finally he has closure.

I want to feel angry at him for the atrocities committed, for having played *any* role in it, no matter how small it is... But I feel that it's too late for that.

I feel that survivors and survivor's relatives should feel closure. Rather than being angry, this should be a huge relief for them, and they can find a bit of peace to finally move on.

A justice has been served, albeit late.

 

[Despera]

Again lots of people are claiming he's guilty of the crime of being a Nazi, whilst ignoring that at the time the Germans were indoctrinated and believed the cause was either true and correct or akin to a different political ideology (Democrats to Republicans, Conservative to Labour, hard left to Hard right), being a member of the Nazi party or the nazi army alone should not be a crime?
I suggest again imagine a massive regime change in America and being an American is in that society considered akin to being a Nazi, would that be fair to persecute all American's based on the beliefs they had at the time by a society that had a different moral outlook on life?
You simply cannot make following an ideology illegal (based on your own alternate views), that is utterly contrary to the ideals of freedom of speech and democracy and would lead to totalitarian societies

You can only judge (in a court) him and by extension any soldier (regardless of their initial reason for conscription) by the actions they take, not the beliefs they hold - and his actions were to catalogue personal possessions, write reports and send off items to Berlin for reprocessing - the only thing he did was nothing

Feel free to personally judge them on their beliefs but the law cannot and should never persecute in such a way that it targets those who held a political belief - thats one hell of a dark road to go down

This. I don't understand what the jail sentence will accomplish in this particular case.

 

[jimbor]

Completely pointless jail sentence after all this time. By all means find him guilty but jailing him serves no purpose.

 

[vas_a_morir]

The idea being that dropping the atomic bombs to end a war and save hundreds of thousands of lives is more morally defensible than executing millions of people based on their ethnicity.

This is inaccurate.

It actually saved millions of Japanese lives.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

This is inaccurate.

It actually saved millions of Japanese lives.

This, as ever is always a matter of debate as to how much it actually saved, but this is neither the time nor the thread for that discussion.

 

[vas_a_morir]

This, as ever is always a matter of debate as to how much it actually saved, but this is neither the time nor the thread for that discussion.

That's right. This is about the SS. The SS is not the same as a regular soldier. They are true believers who had to prove their loyalty and commitment to the cause to get even considered.

 

[Chariot]

Completely pointless jail sentence after all this time. By all means find him guilty but jailing him serves no purpose.

There is still a chance that he don't actually has to go to jail. Depends on the state prosection. I think the chances are good, he is old, not at best health and the accusers don't harnest much hostility against him personally.

This is inaccurate.

It actually saved millions of Japanese lives.

Why not both, really. It saved lives of japanese and possible allied invaders, but it also sacrified hundred of thousand innocent lives for this purpose. This wasn't some kind of holy act, it was am war tactic that happened to work out. It's like shooting a child in the head to save the lives of thousands. Yes, you saved thousands of lives, but it's still not very cool to kill a child. Not that these thousand lives worth nothing, I hope you get what I am trying to say.

That's right. This is about the SS. The SS is not the same as a regular soldier. They are true believers who had to prove their loyalty and commitment to the cause to get even considered.

Opposed to many others he admitted that he actually was indeed a nazi. He truly belived in the cause, it was just at the KZ where his opinion turned as he witnessed what the witnessed and he deeply regreted it afterwards. I really like his honesty.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Why not both, really. It saved lives of japanese and possible allied invaders, but it also sacrified hundred of thousand innocent lives for this purpose. This wasn't some kind of holy act, it was am war tactic that happened to work out. It's like shooting a child in the head to save the lives of thousands. Yes, you saved thousands of lives, but it's still not very cool to kill a child.

Yeah, it's an unenviable position, to be a commander in Total War. No decision is easy and never is it black and white, ethically. I would never think it was a holy or cool act. Just, the act that would seem to have been the most ethical way to end the war with minimal casualties, strategically speaking. But, it wasn't holy or cool.

To your next point, I honestly don't hold any ill will toward this old man. Maybe I SHOULD, maybe I'm SUPPOSED TO, but I can't honestly pretend like I do. It was just so, so , so long ago and he was so very young. It's probably injustice that he lived his life for as long as he did without retribution or punishment, but it is what it is.

 

[TanookiTom]

Holocaust is one of the biggest crimes in human history. A working justice system should find those who are responsible for one of the biggest crimes in history, and let them face trial. To face the past, something Germany very much refused.

You can't be serious about this.

On topic:
German media out lets of course agree that he was rightfully found guilty by the court, but Die Zeit raises some good points.

While on one hand it seems grotesque to be sentenced to four years in prison for assisting in the murder of up to 300,000 individuals, it is a person that is before the court and not the whole system of the Nazri regime. And this person, a 94 year old man who never denied his actions, but admitted them, pleaded guilty and apologized, has now been likely sentenced to die in prison.

You usually can't be found guilty even for straight up murder after such a time in Germany, but this has been changed for murders/assisted murders during the Nazi time by the German government. Still, there have been several trials against him earlier, he has been in British internment after the war, he has always been outspoken about his guilt. To sentence him to four years in prison now, at this day, likely sending him there to die. I think this is unnecessarily harsh. Perhaps our justice system needs to be this harsh in the face of the unspeakable crimes that have been committed 70 years ago, but then again, as die Zeit points out, do we not now live in a system which can also exercise mildness?

 

[LaMagenta]

I think they should let him be for the remainder of his miserable life, but first strip him of all his possesions, retirement funds, and any other assets and donate them to the holocaust survivors. No inheritance for his family. He needs to give it all back.

 

[DarkFlow]

I think they should let him be for the remainder of his miserable life, but first strip him of all his possesions, retirement funds, and any other assets and donate them to the holocaust survivors. No inheritance for his family. He needs to give it all back.

I'm really glad some of you are not in positions of authority.

 

[danthefan]

You can't be serious about this.

Completely agree, don't know what that poster is on about.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

SS. Auschwitz. He's lucky as shit. 4 years, but he's been out in the world for 70 years. Didn't get the U.S. Dachau liberation treatment he deserved. Very lucky.

Regrets are good but tears don't suffice.

 

[kitch9]

This is inaccurate.

It actually saved millions of Japanese lives.

According to your propaganda I'm sure it did.

 

[Chariot]

The next one is in preparation. Not in motion yet, but I think it's worthy to be mentioned. This time it's an 92 year old former SS Totenkopfwachsturmbann, the nazis with the iconic skulls in their uniforma and flags. He is accused of organizing the transport of prisoners and guarding Auschwitz.

http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1043966.html

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

According to your propaganda I'm sure it did.

But it did.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

I think they should let him be for the remainder of his miserable life, but first strip him of all his possesions, retirement funds, and any other assets and donate them to the holocaust survivors. No inheritance for his family. He needs to give it all back.

So his family should suffer for what he did?

 

[PeskyToaster]

The idea that Japan would have given up is not clear at all. And it certainly wasn't clear in 1945.

Why does every thread about WWII devolve into a debate about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Why are people so desperate to draw a moral equivalence between the Axis and the Western Allies? I don't understand it.

It happens every time. Not that it's not a topic wrothy of discussion but we always get there in every WWII thread. We have a thread for discussion of the bombs and a WWII OT which would be great places for it. It's tough to transfer a discussion once it gets going though. I'm glad this thread went the way it did though. I think a lot of good stuff was thrown around and mulled over.

 

[DragonSworne]

But it did.

US could have targeted non civilian populations and still achieved the same result with the bomb.

Hundreds of thousands of needless lives were lost because we targeted civilians.

 

[Wereroku]

US could have targeted non civilian populations and still achieved the same result with the bomb.

Hundreds of thousands of needless lives were lost because we targeted civilians.

Both of those cities were major military targets. If they were after purely civilian targets they would have dropped them on Tokyo or Kyoto.

 

[Wiktor]

Seems like a pretty reasonable verdict. Normally such accessory shouldn't really be treated as being part of murder scheme, but the holocaust was done on such scale that it's not the first law logic that had to be removed to seek justice. Everybody there was also sentenced based on laws that came into an effect after the crime, which normally would be insane idea typical for totalitarian regimes, but here it was unique situation and it was needed.

 

[kitch9]

But it did.

Well according to German propaganda the Jews were an almighty evil that threatened their very existence.

They maybe argued at the time that the death of all those poor souls saved millions of German lives.

 

[Chariot]

Well according to German propaganda the Jews were an almighty evil that threatened their very existence.

They maybe argued at the time that the death of all those poor souls saved millions of German lives.

Oh no. Please don't go there. Don't.

 

[Moff]

do they write that in american schoolbooks? that dropping 2 nukes on 2 cities was done to save lives?
genuinly interested, it was certainly not written that way in my schoolbooks in europe.

 

[Chariot]

do they write that in american schoolbooks? that dropping 2 nukes on 2 cities was done to save lives?
genuinly interested, it was certainly not written that way in my schoolbooks in europe.

It was a sidenote in my history book in Germany. We basically ignored the Pacific Theatre to talk more about nazi atrocities.

 

[Veritigo_X]

do they write that in american schoolbooks? that dropping 2 nukes on 2 cities was done to save lives?
genuinly interested, it was certainly not written that way in my schoolbooks in europe.

No, they say it was done in an attempt to end the war (at least at my school). My teacher did bring up that an allied invasion of Japan was estimated to cost more lives than the deaths from both bombs though. So it's something we're told about but that's not the actual reason given for dropping the bombs. More of a silver lining.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

No, they say it was done in an attempt to end the war (at least at my school). My teacher did bring up that an allied invasion of Japan was estimated to cost more lives than the deaths from both bombs though. So it's something we're told about but that's not the actual reason given for dropping the bombs. More of a silver lining.

I believe that was Truman's actual reason for dropping the bombs.

 

[DarkFlow]

I believe that was Truman's actual reason for dropping the bombs.

After the battle of Okinawa, and all the other Islands on that hop, it wasn't exactly a stretch for us to reason taking mainland Japan was going to be bloody.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

After the battle of Okinawa, and all the other Islands on that hop, it wasn't exactly a stretch for us to reason taking mainland Japan was going to be bloody.

Oh absolutely. The Japanese were mad that we were already close to the mainlands on their islands (which they were not going to give up easily) imagine fighting on actual Japan? That would've dragged the war out for years.

 

[LyleLanley]

Well according to German propaganda the Jews were an almighty evil that threatened their very existence.

They maybe argued at the time that the death of all those poor souls saved millions of German lives.

This thread sure has become something.

 

[kitch9]

Oh no. Please don't go there. Don't.

They weren't killing Jews just for the sake of it.

I know its abhorrent, but its what those guys believed because of the propaganda. Read up on Hitlers Youth and what they were taught, this guy was around for all of it. There's no wonder his world view was off the chain.

The SS was Hitlers SAS, it was the ultimate prestige to be part of it, the elite. Those guys scared the shit out of everyone friend or foe. Only problem is, once you were in you weren't getting out and you were expected to whatever you were asked no matter how disgusting.

The Japan bombs cracked two nuts (using a sledgehammer) for the US, it quickly killed off the Japanese resistance and it showed Russia who was boss for 4 years until they got a bomb too...... Not really a long time for the cost of a lot of civilian lives.

 

[TheSeks]

Three years might be a life sentence.

I mean I get where you're coming from, but it's too short a sentence for something like this. The trial really should've happened at least 20 years ago. He'd be ~70-ish then, still old but the punishment and legal recourse for something of this magnitude would've been more impacting.

 

[kitch9]

No, they say it was done in an attempt to end the war (at least at my school). My teacher did bring up that an allied invasion of Japan was estimated to cost more lives than the deaths from both bombs though. So it's something we're told about but that's not the actual reason given for dropping the bombs. More of a silver lining.

Anyone know what the Japanese take on it is?

 

[DarkFlow]

Anyone know what the Japanese take on it is?

"What war?"

 

[Gonzalez]

This thread sure has become something.

When weeaboos go too far.

 

[Chariot]

When weeaboos go too far.

What has that to do with weabooism? His comment was out of line and yours is just stupid. Somebody defending Japan, oh of course he musst be a weaboo! Because there is nothing but anime in Japan. Get real and stop living in your cyberbully dream world.

 

[OriginalNameGuy]

Don't understand the empathy showed towards elderly criminals. Yeah he might very well die serving his sentence but so what? He got way more years to experience the joys of life than his victims.

 

[dose]

Completely pointless jail sentence after all this time. By all means find him guilty but jailing him serves no purpose.

So he just deserves slapped wrists then? 'What you did was bad, but oh well, it happened ages ago so let's just forget about it, eh?' Ridiculous.
If you are found guilty of something you deserve to be punished. It doesn't matter how long ago it was or how old you are.

 

[Novocaine]

So he just deserves slapped wrists then? 'What you did was bad, but oh well, it happened ages ago so let's just forget about it, eh?' Ridiculous.
If you are found guilty of something you deserve to be punished. It doesn't matter how long ago it was or how old you are.

He's 94 years old. What is jail time going to do to a 94 year old man? Jack fucking shit is what.

 

[Oersted]

Yes. It has been told before: This conviction serves no purpose to anyone, or anything.

Dense on purpose? I explained you why. We have statements by Auschwitz survivors who tell you the purpose.

Legal systems have evolved. They're there to make a nation work. As such, the most socially advanced nations in the planet have noticed that after a while, the only thing the legal system must make sure of is to filter maladjusted individuals, correct them and avoid whatever conditions led them to disrupt society to go back into play.

As others have said before, I see no reason to do this to this man. The man that worked with the SS seventy years ago is long gone. Nothing of value can come out of jailing this man. It won't provide closure to those that haven't received it in half a century, it won't serve as an exemplary sentence for something that is still literally happening today (Israel anyone?) and... well, I just don't see how this works in any way for anyone.

Poor man I guess? He most likely doesn't have even have to go to jail.

You could tell me why this scares you. That would be helpful.

Someone who holds some responsibility for the industrial murder of 300000 people had to face trial. I can't really fathom that someone would argue against that.

You can't be serious about this

Mentioned it earlier, but read about the Frankfurt trials as a start.

 

[Goliath]

Not sure what there is to debate about. I listened on NPR yesterday to an audio recording of the 94 year old soldier admitting that he needs to stand trial and be punished.

Honestly the guy already won. He lived a normal life and is probably in his mind fixing the last thing he needs to fix to ease his guilt before he dies. Honestly I am disappointed with the whole affair.

 

[vas_a_morir]

What has that to do with weabooism? His comment was out of line and yours is just stupid. Somebody defending Japan, oh of course he musst be a weaboo! Because there is nothing but anime in Japan. Get real and stop living in your cyberbully dream world.

You keep getting trolled like bluegill in a bass pond, son.

 

[Corronchilejano]

I can't really fathom that someone would argue against that.

I was, but it seems you don't wish to discuss it, so nevermind.

 

[Chariot]

Oh, dear. So much about closure. American and Israeli co-plaintiffs want to get in revision and to the Bundesgerichtshof (surpeme court of Germany). They state that the punishment of 4 years was too mild and that he shouldn't be convicted as accessory, but as a murderer.

Aus Sicht der Nebenkläger aus Chicago, Las Vegas, New York und Israel hat das Landgericht die Taten Grönings im Vernichtungslager Auschwitz nicht korrekt bewertet. "Nach unserer Rechtsauffassung hätte eine Verurteilung wegen Mords und nicht nur wegen Beihilfe erfolgen müssen", sagte der Rechtsanwalt der Angehörigen. Diese sind mit dem Urteil nicht zufrieden.

From the perspective of the co-plaintiffs from Chicago, Las Vegas, New York and Israel the Landgericht didn't judge Gröning's actions in the extermination camp Auschwitz correctly. "From our legal interpretation the conviction should've been on account of murder and not just of accessory", said the lawyer of the families. They are not satisfied with the conviction.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...revision-gegen-groening-urteil-a-1044119.html

 

[jerry113]

do they write that in american schoolbooks? that dropping 2 nukes on 2 cities was done to save lives?
genuinly interested, it was certainly not written that way in my schoolbooks in europe.

To save American lives by ending the war quickly without the need for a full-scale land invasion, probably. And to stave off the Soviets from encroaching onto Japanese territory.

Arguing about the ethics of dropping the two A-bombs is meaningless if you would consider the widespread use of fire bombing on Japanese civilians by B-29 bombers over the course of the war. Many more civilians were killed in Tokyo and other cities by bomber planes - the mere hundreds of thousands killed by the a-bombs pales in comparison.

Argue about the ethics of that first. That's more relevant.

 

[TheZink]

I know what he did was wrong but he knows it also. My family came from Germany to the US and had 26 family members killed in Auschwitz but I choose not to dwell in the past and forgive but I'm not sure in this situation what good the punishment will do.